Dr. Lee Discusses Ramsey Case

[Right on The Money]

gringojoel wrote:

<quoted text>
With much pleasure.
Here is a link to eight. http://www.acandyrose.com/12251996ransomnote....
All are credible and if you take the time to read them, you, like me, will have no doubt who wrote the note.

Thanks Gringo.

[Henri McPhee]

Those handwriting experts Gringo links to aren't forensic document examiners who are qualified to testify about Patsy's handwriting in the Ramsey case.

As I've mentioned previously, the only real forensic document examiner who said Patsy wrote the ransom note was Epstein. He never examined the original ransom note, or Patsy's original handwriting exemplars.

I agree that's not entirely Epstein's fault. It might have been due to practical difficulties. As Judge Carnes quite correctly said in 2003, as a result Epstein's methodology was wrong. It didn't meet the correct legal standard.

This is part of what Judge Carnes said about the matter of Patsy and the ransom note in 2003, that is if anybody on this forum can understand the legalese writing:

"Given the contrary opinion of six other experts, whose ability to examine the documents was necessarily superior to Epstein's, and given Epstein's failure to explain the methodology by which he can make absolute pronouncements concerning the authorship of a document, this Court does not believe that a reasonable jury could conclude that Mrs. Ramsey was the author of the Ransom Note, solely on the basis of Epstein's professed opinion to that effect.

In reaching this conclusion, the Court is aware that it is not permitted to make credibility judgments in ruling on summary judgment motions.

For example, were there six eyewitnesses on one side of a question and one eyewitness on the other side, the Court would not take from a jury the factual question on which these witnesses were testifying.

With regard to Epstein's testimony, however, the Court is not attempting to assess credibility.

Mr. Epstein may sincerely believe that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the Note and the jury may well credit his sincerity. Nevertheless, no matter how earnest Epstein may be, the fact remains that he has not explained his basis for reaching absolute certainty in his conclusion and, accordingly, the weight and impact of his testimony would necessarily be less than the weight of the contrary testimony of six other experts."

[gringojoel]

Ok Henri, I don't know the credentials, but have you looked at the notes yourself? The language? The words and phrases used?
Have you read over the links I have provided? If so, do you not agree personally agree with their findings? Many of Patsy's letters are identical. The way they connect one with the other seems too much of a coincidence.
May I suggest an experiment. I took copies of my own handwriting and tried to find comparisons to the note that I could use if I were an expert and I was trying to argue that gringojoel wrote the note. Nada, zero. A couple of close similarities but nothing like what I see in Patsy's handwriting.
Experts are for sale. I have used, and have served, as an expert witness several times in my life. You find somebody who agrees with you, or who is willing to agree with you for money, and you pay them.
If someone had an aeronautical engineering degree but asked you to jump off a building with paper wings, would you do it?
Experts are great but sometimes common sense works better.

[gringojoel]

Also Henri, if you have links to those superior opinions, I will read all through every one of them. Thanks.

[Henri McPhee]

gringojoel wrote:

Also Henri, if you have links to those superior opinions, I will read all through every one of them. Thanks.

The problem for JonBenet forum internet posters with regard to those Patsy Ramsey case forensic document examiner reports is that they have never been made public. The reports aren't there for everybody to read on the internet. They would all be in the confidential Ramsey case files.

Those handwriting reports were discussed and argued about by Lin Wood and Steve Thomas in the Steve Thomas deposition in 2001. You can get a pretty good idea what those reports contained by reading the Steve Thomas deposition transcript on the internet.

There is also Epstein's and Wong's deposition, wahere they were questioned in that Chris Wolf case, on the ACandyRose website in regard to their beliefs that Patsy wrote the ransom note.

Jameson has often reported on her forum that Priscilla White was noticed copying Patsy's handwriting from things like shopping lists and so on. Jameson always says about that matter that it's in no way suspicious. I agree that's not hard documentary evidence of anything. It sounds a bit odd, and even relevant, to me.

This is some background information about those forensic document examiner reports from the Judge Carnes ruling in 2003:

"During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts.(SMF 1 191; PSMF 1 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey.(SMF 205; PSMF , 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants.(SMF , 191; PSMF , 191.) All six experts agreed that Mr. Ramsey could be eliminated as the author of the Ransom Note.(SMF 194; PSMF 194.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note.(SMF 195; PSMF 195.) Rather, the experts' consensus was that she "probably did not" write the Ransom Note.(SMF , 196; PSMF 196.)14 On a scale of one to five, with five being elimination as

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14 Chet Ubowski of the Colorado Bureau of Investigation concluded that the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.(SMF 197; PSMF , 197.) Leonard Speckin, a private forensic document examiner, concluded that differences between the writing of Mrs. Ramsey's handwriting and the author of the Ransom Note prevented him from identifying Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note, but he was unable to eliminate her.(SMF 198; PSMF 198.) Edwin Alford, a private forensic document examiner, states the evidence fell short of that needed to support a conclusion that Mrs. Ramsey wrote the note.(SMF 197; PSMF 197.) Richard Dusick of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the [R]ansom [N]ote." (SMF 200; PSMF 200.)"

[Henri McPhee]

More from the Judge Carnes ruling in 2003 about the ransom note document forensic examiners:

"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.(SMF' 201; PSMF , 201.) Finally, Howard Rile concluded that Mrs. Ramsey was between "probably not" and "elimination," on a scale of whether she wrote the Ransom Note.(SMF 202; PSMF 202.)"

[Henri McPhee]

More about the forensic document examiners:

Page 22

the author of the Ransom Note, the experts placed Mrs. Ramsey at a 4.5 or a 4.0.(SMF 203; PSMF 203.) The experts described the chance of Mrs. Ramsey being the author of the Ransom Note as "very low." (SMF . 204; PSMF 1 204.) The two experts hired by defendants both assert that this evidence strongly suggests that Mrs. Ramsey did not write the Note.(SMF 254.)

Plaintiff, however, asserts that his retained experts believe Mrs. Ramsey to be the author of the Ransom Note. Indeed, Gideon Epstein and Cina Wong, the handwriting experts proffered by plaintiff, opine that they are "100 percent certain" Mrs. Ramsey wrote the Ransom Note.(SMF 256: PSMF 256; PSDMF 1-2.) In contrast to the experts relied upon by defendants and by the Boulder Police Department, however, neither of these experts have ever seen or examined the original Ransom Note.(SMF 256; PSMF 256.) In fact, Mr. Epstein and Ms. Wong do not know what "generation" copy of the Ransom Note they examined.(SMF , 257; PSMF , 257.) Ms. Wong received her copy of the Ransom Note and certain writings alleged to be historical writings of Mrs. Ramsey from the tabloid, The National Enquirer.(SMF 258; PSMF 258.) Although it is widely considered "very important" to consult the

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[Patricia Fox]

Henri McPhee wrote:

More from the Judge Carnes ruling in 2003 about the ransom note document forensic examiners:
"Lloyd Cunningham, a private forensic document examiner hired by defendants, concluded that there were no significant similar individual characteristics shared by the handwriting of Mrs. Ramsey and the author of the Ransom Note, but there were many significant differences between the handwritings.(SMF' 201; PSMF , 201.)

What is significant is that Cunningham, who was the Ramsey's own hired expert, said that he COULD NOT RULE HER OUT. I just happened to be reading about that last night.

[Mame]

Henri,

Interesting about Priscilla White "practicing Patsy's handwriting"...I've never heard that before. Where did Jameson get that?

[Ickabod]

I would like to hear where this came from also.

"Jameson has often reported on her forum that Priscilla White was noticed copying Patsy's handwriting from things like shopping lists and so on. Jameson always says about that matter that it's in no way suspicious. I agree that's not hard documentary evidence of anything. It sounds a bit odd, and even relevant, to me."

hahahaha who saw her doing this?

Thank you.

[Henri McPhee]

Ickabod wrote:

I would like to hear where this came from also.
"Jameson has often reported on her forum that Priscilla White was noticed copying Patsy's handwriting from things like shopping lists and so on. Jameson always says about that matter that it's in no way suspicious. I agree that's not hard documentary evidence of anything. It sounds a bit odd, and even relevant, to me."
hahahaha who saw her doing this?
Thank you.

I'm sorry I can't give an exact reference for that Priscilla story at the moment. I'll try wading through Jameson's archives to see if I can find a reference.

I can't remember now exactly what it was of Patsy's handwriting that Priscilla was supposed to have been noticed copying, prior to JonBenet's murder. It would be helpful if Jameson could help me out with that.

I distinctly remember Jameson made a reference to that Priscilla story not so long ago on this Topix JonBenet forum. It doesn't seem that many topix posters paid much attention to it at the time.

I admit that this Priscilla story is gossip and hearsay at it's finest, and it certainly isn't evidence. The person who is the source for that story has never been named that I know about.

[STANFORD]

Dr Henry Lee within the inner circle has lost much credbility, particularly after OJ with his transparently weak pidgin proclamation 'There Something Wrong Here'

he makes these oversimplified proclamations, like he did in the Ramsey case to the effect they have been cleared since the grand jury did not indicit them
most of the unwashed masses hand on his every word..he really can't add anything to this Ramsey case..he will just give a primer of DNA and a few what ifs
he recently, tried to regain some respectablility in refusing to testify on behalf of Phil Spector

Patsy wrote the note .. why are most of you still so easily fooled as to them not being involved

[thewhitewitchone]

STANFORD wrote:

Dr Henry Lee within the inner circle has lost much credbility, particularly after OJ with his transparently weak pidgin proclamation 'There Something Wrong Here'
he makes these oversimplified proclamations, like he did in the Ramsey case to the effect they have been cleared since the grand jury did not indicit them
most of the unwashed masses hand on his every word..he really can't add anything to this Ramsey case..he will just give a primer of DNA and a few what ifs
he recently, tried to regain some respectablility in refusing to testify on behalf of Phil Spector
Patsy wrote the note .. why are most of you still so easily fooled as to them not being involved

Because they do not want to believe that parents can do such things to their children. It seems like most IDIs think the Ramseys are the perfect family. They can do no wrong. They fail to realize that there IS no "perfect family" and that what one sees on the outside is not necessarily a reflection of what goes on behind closed doors.
How anyone can say with such certainty that the Ramseys had no involvement in JonBenets murder is beyond comprehension. To not even allow for the possibility boggles my mind; especially when no one has been caught and charged with her murder and when there are still so many questions left unanswered. These staunch Ramsey supporters cannot even concede that the Ramseys actions and words following the murder were questionable. Instead, they make excuses for them or just ignore you when you question something that they can't think of an excuse for.

[Henri McPhee]

thewhitewitchone wrote:

<quoted text>
Because they do not want to believe that parents can do such things to their children. It seems like most IDIs think the Ramseys are the perfect family. They can do no wrong. They fail to realize that there IS no "perfect family" and that what one sees on the outside is not necessarily a reflection of what goes on behind closed doors.
How anyone can say with such certainty that the Ramseys had no involvement in JonBenets murder is beyond comprehension. To not even allow for the possibility boggles my mind; especially when no one has been caught and charged with her murder and when there are still so many questions left unanswered. These staunch Ramsey supporters cannot even concede that the Ramseys actions and words following the murder were questionable. Instead, they make excuses for them or just ignore you when you question something that they can't think of an excuse for.

What was the motive? JonBenet was strangled and had her head bashed in.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume that there must be much more to that matter than a rage over bedwetting, as Steve Thomas and the idiot Boulder cops so stupidly assumed.

All this talk of klonopin in the Ramsey case is another crazy theory without facts. It's just the same as that absurd libel 'amphetamine psychosis' theory of Joe McGinniss, and Fred Kassab in the MacDonald case.

Also in the MacDonald case there were the same absurd accusations about incest as in the Ramsey case. How there could ever have been any incest in the MacDonald case when there wasn't the slightest suggestion, or any proof of that by the autopsy doctor, I simply don't know.

You can't just come on the internet and say you believe Patsy wrote the ransom note without anything to back that up. That's just being a simpleton.

It's rather like Herbert old Etonian, and old Estonian, politicians in this country are now squeezing the benefits of the unemployed and sick and disabled single mothers, so that foreign billionaires in London, and black billionaires, pay no taxes.

These 'want of judgment' politicians are pretty qick to give many millions of taxpayer money to people like Bulgaria and Ireland and Spain and Palestine, and to close British hospitals and post offices.

All this debt relief of Mugabe collaborators in Africa seems to have come after the very inexperinced Briisher foreign office officials were urged to do that by the Mugabe collaborators at the BBC.

The banks and building societies in this country aren't quite so sentimental softhead about debt relief. They can be unbelievably harsh about that matter for red-blooded Britishers.

[Henri McPhee]

Ickabod wrote:

I would like to hear where this came from also.
"Jameson has often reported on her forum that Priscilla White was noticed copying Patsy's handwriting from things like shopping lists and so on. Jameson always says about that matter that it's in no way suspicious. I agree that's not hard documentary evidence of anything. It sounds a bit odd, and even relevant, to me."
hahahaha who saw her doing this?
Thank you.

This is one reference I've found about that gossip about Priscilla White copying Patsy's handwriting prior to JonBenet's murder. I thought I wasn't dreaming about it.

Jameson has mentioned that matter several times in the past, but I can't find exactly where at the moment.

This quote comes from Miss Marple's JonBenet wiki website. Polly Paugh is one of Patsy's sisters:

"Polly Paugh Comment. Steve Thomas's book includes the following claim and Polly Paugh, sister of Patsy Ramsey: "..the other woman who rushed to Patsy's side that morning, Priscilla White, was also suspicious, said Polly. Priscilla had been seen copying Patsy's Daytimer calendar, and Polly said that might explain how someone's handwriting might be duplicated, perhaps on a ransom note." (Thomas 2000:137-138).

Internet poster WatchingYou suggests "Polly seems to have recognized that it looked like Patsy's handwriting, because she was trying to come up with a way it could have been duplicated."

[MilkyWay]

I've tried to write with my left hand and it looked like chicken scratch...I do not buy that Patsy wrote that note with her left hand, the writing was too neat.

If I wake up at 5 a.m. and one of my children is missing from their bed and no where to be found in the house, I grab last nights clothing left on the chair (since I'm not going to shower prior to calling the cops and don't want to soil clean clothes) and this is not unusual for a woman to do under emergency circimstances, especially if she has already packed for a trip planned for the coming day. I can't believe that her wearing yesterday's clothing was even questionable.

My question about the matching DNA found on the panties and leggings is...did they obtain DNA from the housekeeper (whom probably washed and put away the laundry)? Of course, if there was DNA that matched underneath the finger nails, that could rule out the housekeeper, unless she had helped Jon Benet dress for the party and was scratched by her in the process. Was there a housekeeper or babysitter? But did the DNA under the finger nails match the DNA found on the panties and leggings?

I figure that Jon Benet could have been put to bed in the leggings and undershirt worn under the dress she wore to the party, since it was late when they got home. She could have already been asleep and they may not have wantd to wake her by changing her into pjs. Is there any possibility that someone at the party had assisted her in pulling up her leggings after she went to the bathroom while at the party?

Wasn't there an indication in the letter that some group was demanding the ransom and stated not to call the police? How long after the Ramsey's phoned the police was Jon Benet found in the basement? Had the basement been previously checked prior to when they actually found her?

Sorry, I haven't been following this case as well as some of you. I've only read a little about it over the years.

[Right On The Money]

MilkyWay wrote:

I've tried to write with my left hand and it looked like chicken scratch...I do not buy that Patsy wrote that note with her left hand, the writing was too neat.
If I wake up at 5 a.m. and one of my children is missing from their bed and no where to be found in the house, I grab last nights clothing left on the chair (since I'm not going to shower prior to calling the cops and don't want to soil clean clothes) and this is not unusual for a woman to do under emergency circimstances, especially if she has already packed for a trip planned for the coming day. I can't believe that her wearing yesterday's clothing was even questionable.
My question about the matching DNA found on the panties and leggings is...did they obtain DNA from the housekeeper (whom probably washed and put away the laundry)? Of course, if there was DNA that matched underneath the finger nails, that could rule out the housekeeper, unless she had helped Jon Benet dress for the party and was scratched by her in the process. Was there a housekeeper or babysitter? But did the DNA under the finger nails match the DNA found on the panties and leggings?
I figure that Jon Benet could have been put to bed in the leggings and undershirt worn under the dress she wore to the party, since it was late when they got home. She could have already been asleep and they may not have wantd to wake her by changing her into pjs. Is there any possibility that someone at the party had assisted her in pulling up her leggings after she went to the bathroom while at the party?
Wasn't there an indication in the letter that some group was demanding the ransom and stated not to call the police? How long after the Ramsey's phoned the police was Jon Benet found in the basement? Had the basement been previously checked prior to when they actually found her?
Sorry, I haven't been following this case as well as some of you. I've only read a little about it over the years.

Milky Way,

You can find a synopsis of this case just by googling.

As far as you trying to write with your left hand, you are obviously NOT ambidexterous. Patsy was.

[Viva]

Lee has become such a joke!

[Sanitychik]

Henri McPhee wrote:

<quoted text>
This is one reference I've found about that gossip about Priscilla White copying Patsy's handwriting prior to JonBenet's murder. I thought I wasn't dreaming about it.
Jameson has mentioned that matter several times in the past, but I can't find exactly where at the moment.
This quote comes from Miss Marple's JonBenet wiki website. Polly Paugh is one of Patsy's sisters:
"Polly Paugh Comment. Steve Thomas's book includes the following claim and Polly Paugh, sister of Patsy Ramsey: "..the other woman who rushed to Patsy's side that morning, Priscilla White, was also suspicious, said Polly. Priscilla had been seen copying Patsy's Daytimer calendar, and Polly said that might explain how someone's handwriting might be duplicated, perhaps on a ransom note." (Thomas 2000:137-138).
Internet poster WatchingYou suggests "Polly seems to have recognized that it looked like Patsy's handwriting, because she was trying to come up with a way it could have been duplicated."

Copying notes from someones calendar is not "trying to duplicate their handwriting".

Another example of jameson trying to spin chit.