DADT Repeal Does Nothing For Trans So...

DADT Repeal Does Nothing For Trans Soldiers

There are 653 comments on the www.womanist-musings.com story from Dec 21, 2010, titled DADT Repeal Does Nothing For Trans Soldiers. In it, www.womanist-musings.com reports that:

While the GL community is celebrating the passage and imminent signing of the DADT repeal into law by President Obama, pardon the trans community if we are feeling as though we just got handed another lump of coal in our civil rights Christmas stocking.

"It should be recognized that DADT has never included directives concerning Transgender people serving in the military. Therefore, there was no call from Transgender Americans to equally serve in the military of their country, without persecution and discrimination. However, Transgender people who have and still do serve under the same pre-DADT conditions, still find it necessary to lie and hide who they are, contrary to the best traditions of the military."

"We now press our GLB brothers and sisters to finish the job and help provide the means for Transgender people to be able to serve their country openly and equally as do all Americans."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.womanist-musings.com.

Since: May 08

Location hidden

#82 Dec 23, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I'm a gay man. I still don't get the whole "brain-sex v physical sex", and I doubt I ever will, so I'll just have to take your word for it.
get some of the movies I told you about. they might help a little.

Sei

Since: Nov 08

Amesbury, MA

#83 Dec 23, 2010
Frank Stanton wrote:
<quoted text>
Some people who are physically male were born with female brains and vice-versa. It's not hard tpo understand. My ficanee was born athat way, and I've met many people over the years born that way.
No, it isn't that hard to understand. Unfortunately, it just sounds impossible to understand.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#84 Dec 24, 2010
Frank Stanton wrote:
<quoted text>
Some people who are physically male were born with female brains and vice-versa. It's not hard tpo understand. My ficanee was born athat way, and I've met many people over the years born that way.
So they THINK they're a woman, when they're actually physically a man. Still sounds like they need counseling to accept their physical body as opposed to surgery. Just like if I THINK I'm born with a moose brain, I'd be better off getting counseling instead of surgery to have horns attached.

Sei

Since: Nov 08

Amesbury, MA

#85 Dec 24, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
So they THINK they're a woman, when they're actually physically a man. Still sounds like they need counseling to accept their physical body as opposed to surgery. Just like if I THINK I'm born with a moose brain, I'd be better off getting counseling instead of surgery to have horns attached.
It's more complicated than that, and I think that, at this point, you're being deliberately obtuse.

I don't think I am a woman. I know I am a woman. My entire gender presentation is that of a woman's, and it was for so long that most people actually assumed I was a gay man, incidentally. I have no hint of masculine behavior. I am female, period. My entire core identity is female. What is more, that was my identity from as young as I can remember and no amount of therapy will change the fact that I am a woman.

The fact that I was born with the wrong genitals is a whole separate matter from my being a woman. To me, this is a birth defect that can be remedied thanks to surgery and HRT.

At the age of five, I was dreaming up dresses that I wanted to wear for my wedding. At the age of seven, I came close to castrating myself because I could not understand why I had these weird growths in between my legs, and I was terrified to tell an adult that i looked odd for a girl.

I have been and always will be a woman. No amount of trying to brainwash me into accepting that I am suppose to be male will help.

It is no different than trying to FORCE you to be a straight man. In fact, it is exactly the same thing. You are advocating reparative transgender therapy right here and right now.

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#86 Dec 26, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
... Seems to me to only reason it's being put forth as a medical condition is that the subjects in question have physical signs of depression due to their psychological condition. There doesn't seem to be any biological cause for the depression as is the case with most depression. They're just depressed because they're not happy with the body parts they were born with.
It's akin to saying people who are depressed because they don't like the shape of their nose have an actual medical condition. People get addicted to cosmetic surgery, and as far as I can tell, gender reassignment is just another form of cosmetic surgery.
No matter how much surgery you have, if you were born a functional man, then you will never be a woman. You may be able to look like one, but it won't be functional. Wouldn't it be easier & cheaper & less painful & less invasive just to pretend you're a woman without all the surgery & hormone therapy?
I think the problem lies in the oppositional nature of your interpretation. As we now know about clinical depression (it's a physical condition that has psychological manifestations) the medical community has seen the science showing trans people to have brain structures that are more similar to their target sex rather than the sex they were assigned at birth and have thus drawn the conclusion that transsexuals have a physical condition. One that responds very well to physical interventions, I might add, another point of proof. Indeed, there is more scientific evidence of the physical etiology of being transsexual than there is of the etiology of same sex attraction.

Psychological counseling works in changing gender identity as well as it works in changing sexual orientation. I assume you don't think a functional man is required to be heterosexual, so why do you think he must be cissexual? Your adherence to a belief in biological determinism in the case of transsexuals seems at odds with the belief most gay people have that their biology has nothing to do with their behavior and experience. I sense a double standard here.

(cont'd)

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#87 Dec 26, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
... If it's not biology & genetics, then just what does make a man a man, and a woman a woman? If you're going to completely disregard biology & genetics, then why focus on the physical appearance? Why not just think of yourself as a woman (or man, as the case may be)?
It's been shown that biology is too variable to use as a determinant for gender and its expression. The existence of people who have more easily measurable intersex conditions, women with XY chromosomes, men with XX chromosomes, people with XXY and XYY combinations, shows that biology does not respect the artificial and immovable binary that humans try to place on it when considering sex and gender. The only logical conclusion, even if it does seem way too subjective but it's the only test we now have, is the only way to define who is a man or a woman or somewhere in between is to ask. Just as you know, without even thinking about how you know, that you are a man, transsexual people know they are not the sex they were assigned at birth.
The motivation to change one's body to reflect the secondary sexual characteristics of your target gender is a complex mix of psychological and social influences. It's easy to say, "just be a man/woman without the surgery" but that ignores the emphasis our culture places on gendering people based on their physical appearance - even the things not normally seen play a part. It's not known for certain why for some people the physical reality of their bodies is so abhorrent to them. Some theories point to our brains' apparent "body map" and say a mismatch between that map and physical reality can cause a great deal of stress, anxiety and depression. Whatever the reasons, for some people the physical mismatch is as painful to their psyche, or perhaps even more painful, than having to live a lie. Making use of scientific and medical knowledge to assuage that pain doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#88 Dec 26, 2010
Stupid TOPIX lost the first half of my post! GRRR!!

I'll address the points I missed later later.

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#89 Dec 26, 2010
OMG - this stuff makes me crazy sometimes - first it ain;t there and alla sudden there it is? GAH!!

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#90 Dec 26, 2010
Sei wrote:
It is no different than trying to FORCE you to be a straight man. In fact, it is exactly the same thing. You are advocating reparative transgender therapy right here and right now.
Not the same thing at all. Gay or straight is just a label based on which gender I am physically & emotionally attracted to. If I'm attacted to men then I'm gay, but if I'm attracted to women I'm straight. If I start chopping off body parts I'll still be physically & emotionally attraced to men.

What you are describing is a mental detachment from reality. It would be no different than me being 100% convinced I'm from an alien from another planet trapped in a human body, or that I'm really an 80 y/o man trapped in a 10 y/o body, or that I'm 6'5" man trapped inside a 5'10" body. Should I have 7" bone extensions built into my femurs to make me the right height?

I can prove that I'm physically attracted to other men. Can a transgender prove they're actually a woman trapped inside man's body? If they are genetically & biologically male, how can they prove this?

I think you're hung up more on gender roles in society than actual gender.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#91 Dec 26, 2010
Emelye Waldherr wrote:
It's been shown that biology is too variable to use as a determinant for gender and its expression. The existence of people who have more easily measurable intersex conditions, women with XY chromosomes, men with XX chromosomes, people with XXY and XYY combinations, shows that biology does not respect the artificial and immovable binary that humans try to place on it when considering sex and gender. The only logical conclusion, even if it does seem way too subjective but it's the only test we now have, is the only way to define who is a man or a woman or somewhere in between is to ask.
I guess I make a distinction between "man" and "male". A "man" is a societal gender ROLE, while a "male" is genetic/physical gender. Same thing for woman & female.

Transgenders seem to self-identify based on the gender role of a man or woman, and then try to make their body physically match what society says a man or woman is supposed to look like.

Maybe it would be easier to make a 3rd societal role so those who psychologically don't match the typical physical gender expression of man or woman could be accepted without needing to resort to surgery & hormone therapy etc. Just like we don't force bisexuals to pick between straight or gay.

“dyssonance hotmail”

Since: Mar 07

Phoenix, AZ

#92 Dec 26, 2010
*Pokes head in*

Hmmm. I spy with my little I something that sounds like cis privilege.

Perhaps I should stop by when I have some free time.

There's a lot of really foolish errors going on.

Listen to Emelye, folks.'Cause she's a bit nicer than I am.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#93 Dec 26, 2010
DYSSS !!! You Old Biatch !!! Where you been keeping yourself ?!?!?!

Since: Jan 07

Plymouth, MI

#94 Dec 27, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
What you are describing is a mental detachment from reality.
No, you're very frankly the one detached from reality, here. You've bought into the binary concept of sex for starters. Do you have any idea how complex the process of sex differentiation is? While it's true that most people have genetics that produce an expected outcome (XX = female, XY = male), not everyone does. There are people with extra or missing chromosomes, and people whose physical attributes don't match their genetics (XX appearing physically male, XY appearing physically female). There are people whose physical appearance and/or internal sex organs are mixed.

It would seem obvious that someone who is intersex probably doesn't experience being a particular sex and the mental/emotional elements that make up one's gender in the same way as a cis-gendered person.

Anyone who thinks this stuff is made up seriously needs to educate themselves:

http://www.isna.org/faq/
WeTheSheeple wrote:
It would be no different than me being 100% convinced I'm from an alien from another planet trapped in a human body, or that I'm really an 80 y/o man trapped in a 10 y/o body, or that I'm 6'5" man trapped inside a 5'10" body. Should I have 7" bone extensions built into my femurs to make me the right height?
Now you're just being an ass. Are you unaware of the research that shows certain brain structures of at least some gay men have more in common with heterosexual women than heterosexual men? Knowing that, is it such a leap to understand that a person's brain might be telling them something about themselves that doesn't match their outward physical appearance?

There is a difference between the delusions you made up and being a person with mixed physical characteristics, or a person whose gender identity is at odds with their physical sex. The latter does not necessarily determine the former. It's way more complex than XX = female, XY = male. And here I'll remind you that some people believe that XX = heterosexual female, XY = heterosexual male, and that same-sex orientation is a mental illness with no physical basis.

In Sei's case, she has way more evidence on her side as an intersex person for her situation than you have as a person asserting you're same-sex oriented.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
I can prove that I'm physically attracted to other men.
Really? How? If you think an erection/sexual arousal proves one's orientation, you'd be sadly misinformed.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
Can a transgender prove they're actually a woman trapped inside man's body? If they are genetically & biologically male, how can they prove this?
I'll leave someone better informed on trans issues to answer that one for you. The fact is, the medical establishment treats this as a physical condition. Is it your contention that they've somehow been duped? Just like some people contend that professionals in psychology/psychiatry were duped into removing orientation from the list of mental illnesses?

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
I think you're hung up more on gender roles in society than actual gender.
You're the one who seems to have that hang up.

I'm beyond disgusted with you and your attitude right now.

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#95 Dec 27, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess I make a distinction between "man" and "male". A "man" is a societal gender ROLE, while a "male" is genetic/physical gender. Same thing for woman & female.
Transgenders seem to self-identify based on the gender role of a man or woman, and then try to make their body physically match what society says a man or woman is supposed to look like.
Maybe it would be easier to make a 3rd societal role so those who psychologically don't match the typical physical gender expression of man or woman could be accepted without needing to resort to surgery & hormone therapy etc. Just like we don't force bisexuals to pick between straight or gay.
You are ignoring the documented - and painful - symptoms that trans people experience based on their physical mismatch. There are many trans women who have lived as their true selves for years, are gendered as their target sex and treated as such in all social situations but still experience sometimes debilitating dysphoria because their body doesn't match their experience. There is an internal conflict that goes on, it's not just about how one is accepted in any particular role.

Even if a third sex/gender were accepted in our culture, many trans people would still opt for surgery. I realize you can't grasp this because your experience cannot fathom a mismatch between your gender and sex but, for many, there is more to it than just the clothes you wear.

The proof is in the symptoms that trans people exhibit and the things they say and do. I know trans people who cross dressed in private for years as an outlet for their dysphoria. I know trans women who are active in the drag community - they are really straight women but use drag performance as an outlet and remain in the gay community to justify their attraction to men. The proof is in the awful suicide statistics among trans people. This proof is bolstered by the brain imaging studies that show structures that match trans people's target sex rather than the sex they were assigned at birth.

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#96 Dec 27, 2010
Dyssonance wrote:
*Pokes head in*
Hmmm. I spy with my little I something that sounds like cis privilege.
Perhaps I should stop by when I have some free time.
There's a lot of really foolish errors going on.
Listen to Emelye, folks.'Cause she's a bit nicer than I am.
As if you don't have enough to do, you show up in here? ;-D

Thnx for the endorsement and thnx for doing the work you do outside of TOPIX, Dyss. I wish I could help out more.

“IBM had it right: "Think"”

Since: Mar 07

SF Bay Area Suburbs

#97 Dec 27, 2010
stewie wrote:
ScottyMatic - well said.
I have a bone to pick with the "T" community - I don't see how changing your gender has anything to do with gay/lesbian rights. You used to be a woman who loves women, now you're a man who loves women (or vice versa). Where is the problem for you? What rights are you missing? Didn't you just gain all of them??
the bigger bone to pick is: why do you insist that the good be the enemy of the perfect. It's taken two generations to get to Repeal of Dadtdp through. I wish America were ready to accept trans persons, but the political groundwork is not complete. We need cto accept stepwise progress, andthose who insist on s big bang solution will discover we get nothing instead of incremental progress. ENDANGER would be the law for sexual orientation if the all-or-nothing defeatists had accepted a partial solution. By demanding T be in the first version, we doomed step one which would have started with G and L.

Politics is the art of the possible. Accept that.

Women's lib had sports and employment protection because they accepted these as the first step. We don't have ERA yet, but we have something. African Americans accepted Brown and got the schools de-segregated a decade before the other civil rights acts, because they understood that righting a wrong sometimes is a multi-stage activity.

Get over it, and do the homework to yet America ready for B and T, but don't stop all progress because you want it all at the first vote.

“Indeed, I am!”

Since: Feb 09

As if it mattered . . .

#98 Dec 28, 2010
The problem with that kind of incrementalism is the track record that has shown us that trans people get forgotten once LGB people get their rights. In Wiscinsin it's been about 24 years. In New York it's been 9 years and what are they talking about? Marriage equality. And again, now that DADT seems to be on its way out are the rich, gay elite talking about ENDA or any other kind of civil rights protections that will cover the most people in this country? No. They are talking about pushing for marriage equality which may be a very important issue but one that is secondary to being able to keep your job, your abode and your dignity in the public sphere while accessing public accommodations.

The trans community has been doing its damndest to wake people up and the people who should be their closest allies are still ignoring them. How can we get the rest of this country to pay heed when so many of the elite LGB's still try to push us to the margins with practically the same vehemence as the christianist hate groups?

Instead of continuing attempts to exclude and marginalize trans people, how about helping along with the education so ALL of us can get what we need? Equal rights and equal protections. No more, no less.

Sei

Since: Nov 08

Amesbury, MA

#99 Dec 28, 2010
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Not the same thing at all. Gay or straight is just a label based on which gender I am physically & emotionally attracted to. If I'm attacted to men then I'm gay, but if I'm attracted to women I'm straight. If I start chopping off body parts I'll still be physically & emotionally attraced to men.
What you are describing is a mental detachment from reality. It would be no different than me being 100% convinced I'm from an alien from another planet trapped in a human body, or that I'm really an 80 y/o man trapped in a 10 y/o body, or that I'm 6'5" man trapped inside a 5'10" body. Should I have 7" bone extensions built into my femurs to make me the right height?
I can prove that I'm physically attracted to other men. Can a transgender prove they're actually a woman trapped inside man's body? If they are genetically & biologically male, how can they prove this?
I think you're hung up more on gender roles in society than actual gender.
Given that you are a gay man, I can presume that you are at least open to anal intercourse, correct? The idea of penetrating or being penetrated is something that is within your world view, right?

It is not within mine. The notion of penetrating another woman is abhorrent to me. The idea of being penetrated sickens me. The idea that that is 'normal' is outside my understanding. You are choosing at this point to be ignorant. I am not hung up on gender roles. In fact, I am fairly non-standard in my gender role for a woman. Like the women in my family, I am strong, independent, and often more than willing to take on aspects that are considered by our society to be more masculine.

It is physically painful for me to have anything to do with being male, especially biologically. I have suffered from severe depression, anxiety, and emotional issues. The fact that I made it this far in this process has been because I had parents who raised me in a fairly gender neutral environment. So, rather than being such a dick head and thinking that you know what this is about, try understanding it.

And, guess what, YOU are just like those Christian bigots who tell lesbians and gays- myself included- to stop being lesbian or gay. YOU are pushing reparative therapy on transpeople through your own ignorance.

That, at least, has a cure.

Sei

Since: Nov 08

Amesbury, MA

#100 Dec 28, 2010
Emelye Waldherr wrote:
<quoted text>
You are ignoring the documented - and painful - symptoms that trans people experience based on their physical mismatch. There are many trans women who have lived as their true selves for years, are gendered as their target sex and treated as such in all social situations but still experience sometimes debilitating dysphoria because their body doesn't match their experience. There is an internal conflict that goes on, it's not just about how one is accepted in any particular role.
Even if a third sex/gender were accepted in our culture, many trans people would still opt for surgery. I realize you can't grasp this because your experience cannot fathom a mismatch between your gender and sex but, for many, there is more to it than just the clothes you wear.
The proof is in the symptoms that trans people exhibit and the things they say and do. I know trans people who cross dressed in private for years as an outlet for their dysphoria. I know trans women who are active in the drag community - they are really straight women but use drag performance as an outlet and remain in the gay community to justify their attraction to men. The proof is in the awful suicide statistics among trans people. This proof is bolstered by the brain imaging studies that show structures that match trans people's target sex rather than the sex they were assigned at birth.
I doubt that he is going to listen to the proof. I think he's hung up on the idea that someone would 'choose' to 'cut off their dick'.

I am not being nice about this. While I do not consider myself transsexual, I have to go through almost all the same steps because I'm intersexed. Now there is a group that is even more marginalized.

Thank you for what you have written so far, though.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#101 Dec 28, 2010
Inquisitarian wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you're very frankly the one detached from reality, here. You've bought into the binary concept of sex for starters. Do you have any idea how complex the process of sex differentiation is? While it's true that most people have genetics that produce an expected outcome (XX = female, XY = male), not everyone does. There are people with extra or missing chromosomes, and people whose physical attributes don't match their genetics (XX appearing physically male, XY appearing physically female). There are people whose physical appearance and/or internal sex organs are mixed.
It would seem obvious that someone who is intersex probably doesn't experience being a particular sex and the mental/emotional elements that make up one's gender in the same way as a cis-gendered person.
Anyone who thinks this stuff is made up seriously needs to educate themselves:
http://www.isna.org/faq/
<quoted text>
Now you're just being an ass. Are you unaware of the research that shows certain brain structures of at least some gay men have more in common with heterosexual women than heterosexual men? Knowing that, is it such a leap to understand that a person's brain might be telling them something about themselves that doesn't match their outward physical appearance?
There is a difference between the delusions you made up and being a person with mixed physical characteristics, or a person whose gender identity is at odds with their physical sex. The latter does not necessarily determine the former. It's way more complex than XX = female, XY = male. And here I'll remind you that some people believe that XX = heterosexual female, XY = heterosexual male, and that same-sex orientation is a mental illness with no physical basis.
In Sei's case, she has way more evidence on her side as an intersex person for her situation than you have as a person asserting you're same-sex oriented.
<quoted text>
Really? How? If you think an erection/sexual arousal proves one's orientation, you'd be sadly misinformed.
<quoted text>
I'll leave someone better informed on trans issues to answer that one for you. The fact is, the medical establishment treats this as a physical condition. Is it your contention that they've somehow been duped? Just like some people contend that professionals in psychology/psychiatry were duped into removing orientation from the list of mental illnesses?
People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
<quoted text>
You're the one who seems to have that hang up.
I'm beyond disgusted with you and your attitude right now.
Hey, they can chop off whatever they want, but they will never be a man if they were born a vagina & boobs, and they will never be a woman if born with a penis & balls.

They will ALWAYS be something in between, which is why we need a 3rd category. Just like bisexuals who always had to pick between identifying as either gay or straight depending on whom they were dating at the time. Now they can just be both without having to choose.

He/she's would be able to be both without having to choose one particular physical appearance over another. If would save them thousands in surgery costs.

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