If There Are Brain Scans We Should Us...

If There Are Brain Scans We Should Use Them

Posted in the Transgender Forum

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CommonSense

East Lansing, MI

#1 Sep 22, 2012
Scientists can see transsexuality on brain scans now.

So we should use them. We should require a positive brain scan in order to transition. That way we prevent mistakes, and we also prevent abuse of the system (such as if an inmate were to do it just because he expects to have a better time at the other sex's institution).
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#2 Oct 7, 2012
oh institution issues, huh? Well how are we to go about getting these scans anyway? Is it expensive?
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#3 Oct 12, 2012
from what I understand, the scans are done on dead people. I have looked online to try to find out how to get a scan for this. I would really like to believe that this is available. Please share more information if you know any more about this.
CommonSense

East Lansing, MI

#4 Oct 14, 2012
They've only been done on dead people?

Then how do we know the brain changes didn't happen AFTER the transition or even just AFTER the person started thinking about being the opposite sex?

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#5 Oct 17, 2012
It is my understanding that the results are from deceased people. Do the changes occur after the transition? I cannot speak for T-men. However,for T-women,it is only 'common sense' that it does not occur after transition. You don't need a brain-scan or a 'rocket-scientist' to figure it out. It is a "NO-BRAINER." Look at past history and current events regarding how all women in all societies are treated;and,how can you ever conclude that anyone would ever even remotely consider becoming a woman. Even a blind man could figure this one out!
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#6 Oct 21, 2012
CommonSense wrote:
They've only been done on dead people?
Then how do we know the brain changes didn't happen AFTER the transition or even just AFTER the person started thinking about being the opposite sex?
I've read that they can scan to see if your child is going to be transgendered, but it is so hard for me to find relative information on this subject of scanning for transgendered-ness and I have no idea how to get a scan. I believe I've read that results are from people who hadn't transitioned.
CommonSense

East Lansing, MI

#7 Oct 21, 2012
RealLifeEasyA wrote:
<quoted text>
I've read that they can scan to see if your child is going to be transgendered, but it is so hard for me to find relative information on this subject of scanning for transgendered-ness and I have no idea how to get a scan. I believe I've read that results are from people who hadn't transitioned.
Wait if they were dead but hadn't transitioned then how do we even know they were transgender?

If it's self-identification then how do we know going through the mental/behavioral process didn't instigate chemical changes?

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#8 Oct 21, 2012
RealLifeEasyA wrote:
<quoted text>
I've read that they can scan to see if your child is going to be transgendered, but it is so hard for me to find relative information on this subject of scanning for transgendered-ness and I have no idea how to get a scan. I believe I've read that results are from people who hadn't transitioned.
You don't need a 'brain scan'to figure it out. External activities will provide the necessary info. If a child likes acting and identifying with the opposite sex;then,you can be pretty sure that the child is of that gender. I knew who I was very early in my childhood.
CommonSense

East Lansing, MI

#9 Oct 21, 2012
STEPHMAR wrote:
<quoted text>You don't need a 'brain scan'to figure it out. External activities will provide the necessary info. If a child likes acting and identifying with the opposite sex;then,you can be pretty sure that the child is of that gender. I knew who I was very early in my childhood.
Whenever I've brought up that maybe the person is just really feminine or really masculine an that it doesn't follow you should get a sex change operation people say that gender identity and gender role are two different things, even people suggesting that you could be very masculine but still have a female gender identity(butch tomboy trapped in a man's body) or vice versa (girly boy trapped in a woman's body)

Yet you are saying here that they are the same.

Gender roles are socially constructed. It does not logically follow that if a person likes pink, prefers to play with dolls over transformers, likes makeup, and generally likes things society labels "Feminine" (and yes I know not every girl fits these this is for an example) that therefore the person must be a girl and should be surgically/chemically reassigned. It's just a boy who has a lot of personality traits that society ascribes to the other gender. That boy could easily fall into the trap of thinking that just because society says his behaviors are more appropriate for girls that therefore he is or should be a girl.

Since: Apr 10

Charlottesville, VA

#10 Oct 21, 2012
STEPHMAR wrote:
It is my understanding that the results are from deceased people. Do the changes occur after the transition? I cannot speak for T-men. However,for T-women,it is only 'common sense' that it does not occur after transition. You don't need a brain-scan or a 'rocket-scientist' to figure it out. It is a "NO-BRAINER." Look at past history and current events regarding how all women in all societies are treated;and,how can you ever conclude that anyone would ever even remotely consider becoming a woman. Even a blind man could figure this one out!
Studys show that the diffrences in the brain DO NOT occur after transition, as one study they used cis straght males, cis gay males, cis males who had an orchi due to cancer or some other reason, pre op and pre transition MTFs and post op MTFs and cis females, the study showed that pre op and pre transition, and post op MTFs and cis females had the same brain structure, conversly cis straght males, cis gay males and cis males who had an orchi had the same brain structure. so lack of T in the male body does not change the brain neather does being gay (omg that shows that gender and sexuality are diffrent, who would have thunk it lol)
the study was far more complacted than I paraphrased but you get the point .
if you wish to read it for yourself here is the link
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/203...
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#11 Oct 21, 2012
STEPHMAR wrote:
<quoted text>You don't need a 'brain scan'to figure it out. External activities will provide the necessary info. If a child likes acting and identifying with the opposite sex;then,you can be pretty sure that the child is of that gender. I knew who I was very early in my childhood.
I meant that I think I read that they can see in the womb if your child is going to be transgendered, but I don't know if I can find it online again and if anyone else wants to post links to this stuff that would be helpful and if anyone knows how an adult can actually get a scan, because I need proof for my own reasons. I know who I am and it's not about figuring out whether I'm transgendered, I just need the proof.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#12 Oct 22, 2012
CommonSense wrote:
<quoted text>
Whenever I've brought up that maybe the person is just really feminine or really masculine an that it doesn't follow you should get a sex change operation people say that gender identity and gender role are two different things, even people suggesting that you could be very masculine but still have a female gender identity(butch tomboy trapped in a man's body) or vice versa (girly boy trapped in a woman's body)
Yet you are saying here that they are the same.
Gender roles are socially constructed. It does not logically follow that if a person likes pink, prefers to play with dolls over transformers, likes makeup, and generally likes things society labels "Feminine" (and yes I know not every girl fits these this is for an example) that therefore the person must be a girl and should be surgically/chemically reassigned. It's just a boy who has a lot of personality traits that society ascribes to the other gender. That boy could easily fall into the trap of thinking that just because society says his behaviors are more appropriate for girls that therefore he is or should be a girl.
Gender role is one identifying mark of gender identity.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#13 Oct 22, 2012
JessicaDawn wrote:
<quoted text>
Studys show that the diffrences in the brain DO NOT occur after transition, as one study they used cis straght males, cis gay males, cis males who had an orchi due to cancer or some other reason, pre op and pre transition MTFs and post op MTFs and cis females, the study showed that pre op and pre transition, and post op MTFs and cis females had the same brain structure, conversly cis straght males, cis gay males and cis males who had an orchi had the same brain structure. so lack of T in the male body does not change the brain neather does being gay (omg that shows that gender and sexuality are diffrent, who would have thunk it lol)
the study was far more complacted than I paraphrased but you get the point .
if you wish to read it for yourself here is the link
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/203...
Thank you Hon. I have often quoted this same source, myself.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#14 Oct 22, 2012
RealLifeEasyA wrote:
<quoted text>
I meant that I think I read that they can see in the womb if your child is going to be transgendered, but I don't know if I can find it online again and if anyone else wants to post links to this stuff that would be helpful and if anyone knows how an adult can actually get a scan, because I need proof for my own reasons. I know who I am and it's not about figuring out whether I'm transgendered, I just need the proof.
I am not aware of such a report. However,the proof that you look for is within yourself. How comfortable are you with the gender role that you identify with? How uncomfortable are you with the other gender? Your own body will answer all your questions.
CommonSense

East Lansing, MI

#15 Oct 22, 2012
JessicaDawn wrote:
<quoted text>
Studys show that the diffrences in the brain DO NOT occur after transition, as one study they used cis straght males, cis gay males, cis males who had an orchi due to cancer or some other reason, pre op and pre transition MTFs and post op MTFs and cis females, the study showed that pre op and pre transition, and post op MTFs and cis females had the same brain structure, conversly cis straght males, cis gay males and cis males who had an orchi had the same brain structure. so lack of T in the male body does not change the brain neather does being gay (omg that shows that gender and sexuality are diffrent, who would have thunk it lol)
the study was far more complacted than I paraphrased but you get the point .
if you wish to read it for yourself here is the link
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/203...
That still leaves the possibility that their thought processes triggered the chemical changes.

It also leaves the possibility that what is innate is not gender identity, but gender role/behavior and that these people are just concluding that they like the things associated with one gender or another and so are supposed to be it.

I don't know the process that goes on in the counselor's office but do they at any point in time encourage the person to at least consider that maybe they are really just a tomboy/effeminate and don't need a sex change?
STEPHMAR wrote:
<quoted text>Gender role is one identifying mark of gender identity.
Then what if that's all it is? Do we have any studies that compare trans and non-trans people that are gender non-conforming? Perhaps complete with some kind of questionnaire or some other means of objectively or semi-objectively measuring each person's level of femininity/masculinity?

And what if someone really felt like they were supposed to be born of the opposite sex but their entire personality and behavior matched the same sex other than wanting to have the parts of the opposite sex and call themselves the opposite sex? Does this happen? If not, then that just lends more support to the likelihood that this brain chemistry isn't about gender identity, but merely gender role.
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#16 Oct 23, 2012
STEPHMAR wrote:
<quoted text>I am not aware of such a report. However,the proof that you look for is within yourself. How comfortable are you with the gender role that you identify with? How uncomfortable are you with the other gender? Your own body will answer all your questions.
I need proof because my deepest desires are not enough proof for others. That is why I want a scan. As for my body, I didn't used to feel my body had anything to do with it, it is just my desire to be seen as a man. This was so confusing for me growing up, because I did not realize that's what I wanted to be seen as, I just thought that people were always misunderstanding me because I was an unusual girl. But they need more proof and hardly anything I say matters to some people.
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#17 Oct 23, 2012
CommonSense wrote:
<quoted text>
That still leaves the possibility that their thought processes triggered the chemical changes.
It also leaves the possibility that what is innate is not gender identity, but gender role/behavior and that these people are just concluding that they like the things associated with one gender or another and so are supposed to be it.
I don't know the process that goes on in the counselor's office but do they at any point in time encourage the person to at least consider that maybe they are really just a tomboy/effeminate and don't need a sex change?
<quoted text>
Then what if that's all it is? Do we have any studies that compare trans and non-trans people that are gender non-conforming? Perhaps complete with some kind of questionnaire or some other means of objectively or semi-objectively measuring each person's level of femininity/masculinity?
And what if someone really felt like they were supposed to be born of the opposite sex but their entire personality and behavior matched the same sex other than wanting to have the parts of the opposite sex and call themselves the opposite sex? Does this happen? If not, then that just lends more support to the likelihood that this brain chemistry isn't about gender identity, but merely gender role.
Yeah, there are transgendered people who like to fill the gender role they were assigned at birth. But to be more specific would help the argument. What are the gender roles? I read that there was a transwoman who wanted a sex change but they refused to do the procedure because she wanted to be a butch dyke. Some transgendered people want to transition into "feminine" men or "masculine" women, it is not about masculinity or femininity, but the gender itself, since being a "girly" man is inherently different than being a woman. Some transmen feel more comfortable being the girly man. And being a "manly" woman is different from being a man, and some transwomen want to be a manly woman.
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#18 Oct 23, 2012
CommonSense wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait if they were dead but hadn't transitioned then how do we even know they were transgender?
If it's self-identification then how do we know going through the mental/behavioral process didn't instigate chemical changes?
Apparently, a person becomes transgendered in the womb. http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS....
RealLifeEasyA

Arlington, TX

#19 Oct 23, 2012
CommonSense wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait if they were dead but hadn't transitioned then how do we even know they were transgender?
If it's self-identification then how do we know going through the mental/behavioral process didn't instigate chemical changes?
Chemical changes in adulthood do not cause the brain to reform into the structure of the opposite gender. It is formed that way in the mother's womb and there are some transgendered people who are unaware that they are transgendered, so they have not gone through the "mental/behavioral process."
CommonSense

East Lansing, MI

#20 Oct 24, 2012
RealLifeEasyA wrote:
<quoted text>
Chemical changes in adulthood do not cause the brain to reform into the structure of the opposite gender. It is formed that way in the mother's womb and there are some transgendered people who are unaware that they are transgendered, so they have not gone through the "mental/behavioral process."
Could there ever be a person who has no mental gender? And how would we know for sure? I don't mean someone whose gender identity is "neuter" or "androgynous" I mean someone who just truly doesn't care about gender, and so likely identifies as their birth gender since it's the easiest thing to do but would have had no problem identifying as and living as the other gender if they had been born as it.

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