Transsexuals should cut it out | Julie Burchill

Jan 13, 2013 Full story: The Guardian 33

The brilliant writer Suzanne Moore and I go back a long way. I first met her when she was a young single mother living in a council flat; she took me out to interview me about my novel Ambition for dear dead City Limits magazine.

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“Don't steal my happy”

Since: Aug 12

Shelbyville, Ky.

#21 Jan 27, 2013
good punmanship wrote:
<quoted text>You started out by reading things into my post that were never intended. I have already stated that I can support legislation that would grant reasonable concession to the trans community. Unfortunately, you want to ram your own demands down the throats of others rather than engage in give and take discussions that could result in basic protections for the trans community while also taking into consideration legitimate concerns of the rest of us.
You still speak as if from on high. No demands are being made, only a simple request for basic equality. And nothing is, or has ever been, rammed down anyone's throat. Or at least that's not how it's intended. We don't wish to have anyone bow down to us, just a request to enjoy the same freedoms as non-trans peoples without all of the stipulations and inquisitions. And I'm sorry if you don't feel as if I want to engage in a give and take discussion, but to me that's the same as compromise, and I don't believe there should have to be compromise on even a discussion of equality. And yes, this IS about equality. When a persons, or group of people's, right to be in a certain place is questioned, or even denied, where others of equal standing are not, then you are in the realm of equality. And to argue that trans men and women are not on an equal standing with biological men and women is an act of discrimination. I don't mean to sound like I'm easily offended or anything like that, just that this whole thing is quite messy, and has the potential to get a lot messier. Also, the comments and arguments you've written are a lot more damaging than you realize. To openly doubt and criticize another's legitimacy as an equal is very damaging, as it passes those doubts and criticisms to others who so easily look to doubt and criticize anyone they possibly can. You may have arguments and concerns that prove to be legitimate, but sometimes they have a wider effect than you intend, and more care and tact should be used when voicing them.

“Right to Bear Puns”

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#22 Jan 27, 2013
Angel Diva wrote:
<quoted text>
You still speak as if from on high. No demands are being made, only a simple request for basic equality. And nothing is, or has ever been, rammed down anyone's throat. Or at least that's not how it's intended. We don't wish to have anyone bow down to us, just a request to enjoy the same freedoms as non-trans peoples without all of the stipulations and inquisitions. And I'm sorry if you don't feel as if I want to engage in a give and take discussion, but to me that's the same as compromise, and I don't believe there should have to be compromise on even a discussion of equality. And yes, this IS about equality. When a persons, or group of people's, right to be in a certain place is questioned, or even denied, where others of equal standing are not, then you are in the realm of equality. And to argue that trans men and women are not on an equal standing with biological men and women is an act of discrimination. I don't mean to sound like I'm easily offended or anything like that, just that this whole thing is quite messy, and has the potential to get a lot messier. Also, the comments and arguments you've written are a lot more damaging than you realize. To openly doubt and criticize another's legitimacy as an equal is very damaging, as it passes those doubts and criticisms to others who so easily look to doubt and criticize anyone they possibly can. You may have arguments and concerns that prove to be legitimate, but sometimes they have a wider effect than you intend, and more care and tact should be used when voicing them.
If that is all you are asking for, you and I are close to being on the same page. I do think you could be a little less oversensitive as I am not trying to look down on the TG/TS community as a whole. I do believe that there are things that could be done that will help the trans community without causing undue anxiety to the rest of us. I do hope that a legislative act rather than a court order would be the path to settlement of this sometimes thorny issue.

“Don't steal my happy”

Since: Aug 12

Shelbyville, Ky.

#23 Jan 27, 2013
good punmanship wrote:
<quoted text>If that is all you are asking for, you and I are close to being on the same page. I do think you could be a little less oversensitive as I am not trying to look down on the TG/TS community as a whole. I do believe that there are things that could be done that will help the trans community without causing undue anxiety to the rest of us. I do hope that a legislative act rather than a court order would be the path to settlement of this sometimes thorny issue.
Apologies for the oversensitivity, it comes as a part of the package. It's no easy task to attempt, and I emphasize "attempt", to steer this much estrogen. lol! But don't get me wrong, it has been the most wonderful thing for my mind and my heart alike. My thoughts are so much more vivid and vast now, as well as my emotions are so much more pure and intense. A little overwhelming at times, but enjoyably so. It was as if I was walking around with a bucket over my head and wall around my heart before. This is so much, much better! Life in HD, as it were.:D

“Can't help being fabulous”

Since: Dec 10

Sparkle <3

#24 Jan 30, 2013
good punmanship wrote:
<quoted text>XY is still male. An XY "female" would be totally unacceptable to me for a partner as it is nothing more than a male who feels like he should be a female. Before you start calling me a bigot, I am not against reasonable laws that offer some basic acommodation to transpeople that do not put all the burden on the rest of us.
You're assuming sex and gender are the same thing.

Sex is the biological chromosome of either XX or XY that determines certain characteristics known as secondary sex characteristics to occur following puberty; i.e. breast growth, shoulder development etc.(however this can even be XXY or sometimes XYY or a multiple of combinations so what would you call that in terms of your gender binary?)

Gender is a social construct which is the way a person presents as either a "man" or a "woman". It is a way in which that person is perceived in society. If a "male XY" person took oestrogen from a young age, acted like a "woman", lived her life as a "woman", then in terms of gender she would be a "woman". As by society she would be seen as a woman, and her mental state would also reaffirm she is a woman, despite having an XY or otherwise chromosomal arrangement.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#25 Feb 4, 2013
Kesla15 wrote:
<quoted text>
You're assuming sex and gender are the same thing.
Sex is the biological chromosome of either XX or XY that determines certain characteristics known as secondary sex characteristics to occur following puberty; i.e. breast growth, shoulder development etc.(however this can even be XXY or sometimes XYY or a multiple of combinations so what would you call that in terms of your gender binary?)
Gender is a social construct which is the way a person presents as either a "man" or a "woman". It is a way in which that person is perceived in society. If a "male XY" person took oestrogen from a young age, acted like a "woman", lived her life as a "woman", then in terms of gender she would be a "woman". As by society she would be seen as a woman, and her mental state would also reaffirm she is a woman, despite having an XY or otherwise chromosomal arrangement.
This is all in the eyes of the beholder. One person might consider a male by birth who has had a male to female sex change operation to be a real woman while another might consider the same as a counterfeit. I am no less entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

“Can't help being fabulous”

Since: Dec 10

Sparkle <3

#26 Feb 4, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>This is all in the eyes of the beholder. One person might consider a male by birth who has had a male to female sex change operation to be a real woman while another might consider the same as a counterfeit. I am no less entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.
There are three strands to what people call "gender".

Sex - biological anatomy and secondary sex characteristics, some but not all of which can be altered by hormonal treatment or invasive surgery.

Gender - how a person feels mentally, this is where a person knows where they are on the gender spectrum (for the majority of people this is inline with their sex and expression).

Expression - this bit is more tricky, this is how people choose to be seen, whether it be a girl acting in tomboyish fashion, or a boy being "camp" or being a drag queen. Expression is less of an issue for "masculine women" than "feminine men".

Gender is not in the eyes of the beholder, gender is in the mind of the individual. Expression is the eyes of the beholder and mind of the individual, as Expression is both given out by the individual and perceived by another person.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp.

But anyway, a transsexual woman is a not a "counterfeit". Please bear in mind that in order to be a woman one only has to mentally be a woman. Please bear in mind also that transsexuals and gender variant individuals go through IMMENSE cost and emotional trauma in order to transition to another gender, and would kill to have the same biological anatomy as a cisgendered "natural" woman. Therefore they do deserve the right to be classed as REAL women.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#27 Feb 4, 2013
Kesla15 wrote:
<quoted text>
There are three strands to what people call "gender".
Sex - biological anatomy and secondary sex characteristics, some but not all of which can be altered by hormonal treatment or invasive surgery.
Gender - how a person feels mentally, this is where a person knows where they are on the gender spectrum (for the majority of people this is inline with their sex and expression).
Expression - this bit is more tricky, this is how people choose to be seen, whether it be a girl acting in tomboyish fashion, or a boy being "camp" or being a drag queen. Expression is less of an issue for "masculine women" than "feminine men".
Gender is not in the eyes of the beholder, gender is in the mind of the individual. Expression is the eyes of the beholder and mind of the individual, as Expression is both given out by the individual and perceived by another person.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
It's really not a hard concept to grasp.
But anyway, a transsexual woman is a not a "counterfeit". Please bear in mind that in order to be a woman one only has to mentally be a woman. Please bear in mind also that transsexuals and gender variant individuals go through IMMENSE cost and emotional trauma in order to transition to another gender, and would kill to have the same biological anatomy as a cisgendered "natural" woman. Therefore they do deserve the right to be classed as REAL women.
I am aware of the different concepts of gender. It doesn't mean I buy into it, though. To me, a transgender/transexual is a biological male or female whose sexual identity doesn't match his/her birth gender. I believe that any transsexual considering marriage has a responsibility to tell his/her prospective spouse the truth about his/her past.

“Don't steal my happy”

Since: Aug 12

Shelbyville, Ky.

#28 Feb 4, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text> I believe that any transsexual considering marriage has a responsibility to tell his/her prospective spouse the truth about his/her past.
I agree with that. As I believe most transsexuals would, if for no other reason than, for most, their past in inescapable. So trying to hide it, or run away from it, is just a recipe for disaster. Transsexuals don't generally transition in an attempt to fool anyone. Transition is as much, if not more, personal as it is social.

“Can't help being fabulous”

Since: Dec 10

Sparkle <3

#29 Feb 5, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>I am aware of the different concepts of gender. It doesn't mean I buy into it, though. To me, a transgender/transexual is a biological male or female whose sexual identity doesn't match his/her birth gender. I believe that any transsexual considering marriage has a responsibility to tell his/her prospective spouse the truth about his/her past.
I'm sorry to appear rude if what I say next seems a bit front, but sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with gender identity. A person who is transgendered is someone who's mental gender identity, i.e. what they believe themselves to be, doesn't line up with their physical anatomy.

It's very well for you or I to "not buy into" this concept. As i'm assuming both you and I have gender identities which match up with our physical sex (to put it bluntly, below the waist you're pretty content with what you have, and how you conform in society).

Anyway i'm rambling. Swap the term sexual identity with gender identity and I agree with you 100%. As sexual identity is more to do with who you are attracted to, rather than what you see yourself as.

However I do agree with you 100% on the honesty policy. Absolutely. I find it awful when people don't share with their significant other such an important event in their life. Which is why I prefer to associate with only those who are honest with their partners. My age-old mantra is that aslong as both partners are consenting, legal and honest with each other then I have no issue with them.

“I call it as I see it.”

Since: Jul 09

Retirement City

#30 Feb 5, 2013
Kesla15 wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm sorry to appear rude if what I say next seems a bit front, but sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with gender identity. A person who is transgendered is someone who's mental gender identity, i.e. what they believe themselves to be, doesn't line up with their physical anatomy.
It's very well for you or I to "not buy into" this concept. As i'm assuming both you and I have gender identities which match up with our physical sex (to put it bluntly, below the waist you're pretty content with what you have, and how you conform in society).
Anyway i'm rambling. Swap the term sexual identity with gender identity and I agree with you 100%. As sexual identity is more to do with who you are attracted to, rather than what you see yourself as.
However I do agree with you 100% on the honesty policy. Absolutely. I find it awful when people don't share with their significant other such an important event in their life. Which is why I prefer to associate with only those who are honest with their partners. My age-old mantra is that aslong as both partners are consenting, legal and honest with each other then I have no issue with them.
That is not necessarily true that sexusal identity is unrelated in every case. Statistics show that people whose gender identity does not match his or her birth gender are much more likely to be sexually oriented toward those of their birth sex or bisexual. It is not lost on me that sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things. Statistics, however, show that birth males identifying emotionally as women tend to be more likely to prefer men as sex partners than a non trans male. From there, it simply becomes a matter of semantics with no provable right answer to the issue. It is the same as asking if homosexuality is immoral. It all depends on how one defines terms and according to one's philosophies.

“Can't help being fabulous”

Since: Dec 10

Sparkle <3

#31 Feb 5, 2013
flbadcatowner wrote:
<quoted text>That is not necessarily true that sexusal identity is unrelated in every case. Statistics show that people whose gender identity does not match his or her birth gender are much more likely to be sexually oriented toward those of their birth sex or bisexual. It is not lost on me that sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things. Statistics, however, show that birth males identifying emotionally as women tend to be more likely to prefer men as sex partners than a non trans male. From there, it simply becomes a matter of semantics with no provable right answer to the issue. It is the same as asking if homosexuality is immoral. It all depends on how one defines terms and according to one's philosophies.
Ok point taken, I confused myself and went on a personal rant (you wouldn't believe how many people in real world and online confuse sexuality and gender identity, however I conceit they can be related in SOME cases).

As for homosexuality and sexuality in general, the personal approach I more individualistic. Whether considering if it is "right" or "wrong" go by the rule that aslong as it is consenting, legal and sustainable then I have no quarrel with it. In terms of personal morals I have no issues with homosexuality. However as a "homoromantic", sexuality in itself has little interest for me, that is not to say I don't acknowledge my own sexuality, I just prefer to base a relationship on more than just bodily functions.

Anyway, in terms of being individualistic, one could give the example of a morally upright homosexual who has been committed to his or her partner for many years and who is sexually monogamous, and compare that to a sexually promiscuous heterosexual. Therefore one could easily argue the heterosexual is less moral.

In terms of heterosexuality and homosexuality I don't believe the attraction itself is immoral, I believe that how a person acts (note this isnt referring to homosexual acts being sinful) in terms of monogomy, commitment and staying in good health which constitutes moral behaviour.
Transgender 15 year old

Ely, UK

#32 Apr 16, 2013
STEPHMAR wrote:
<quoted text>Drew,all T-women experience at some time what you are experiencing. Times are changing. More men are accepting T-women as women. Women also will come around. We are born with our gender;regardless of our sex.
true that and I was really, really angry when I read this so sorry if anyone was offended.
Transgender 15 year old

Ely, UK

#33 Apr 16, 2013
But in some years to come, Trans people will be as common and as accepted as gay people. Look at the 50's and now concerning homosexuality

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