Why should Australians fear from Musl...

Why should Australians fear from Muslims?

There are 46759 comments on the Scoop story from Dec 23, 2007, titled Why should Australians fear from Muslims?. In it, Scoop reports that:

About 800 people gathered in Camden, NSW and raised their voice against the plan for an Islamic School to be built in the area.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Scoop.

Trucker

Australia

#39242 May 9, 2013
Small Town America wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey! Angel! It has been a long time since I have seen you post! Remember those days many, many motnhs ago on the Russian forums? I came to your aid because you where being ganged up by all those idiots!! William from the UK! he went to other alias such as robespierre, etc. He has been ridiculed so much that he now changes his name on all his postings.
P. S. Note that this dickhead is from Canada and not the USA. Muslims are sneaky, eh!
Get a room !
Trucker

Australia

#39243 May 9, 2013
Tigger wrote:
This is the line of thought, murder some children and go to Heaven ? WTF
children of Sher Muhammad, Bisma d/o Guldad Ali, Razia Bibi w/o Abdul Saboor of Domail and Mena and Atia daughters of Said Rehman of Domail. Most of the injured were shifted to Khalifa Gulnawaz Memorial Hospital and District Headquarter Hospita.
http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php...
MUQ, how dare you even try to compare your society's to ours.
MUQ doesn't debate Islam, he debates the fine tuning of our advanced Society which no one with a false God, no love and no system of their own ( dog eat dog ) could possibly understand. He asks about Israel ? He asks about other higher IQ societies and bounces things off each thread. He's been doing this a long time. MUQ pretends Muslim but does not believe MUQ knows the Islam is a failed , out dated , medieval society lacking the grace and dignity of all other societies even 1500 years ago. No Shakespeare , no Romeo for Juliet , just like dogs or wild monkeys gather up a group of females dividing their worth with every extra one he includes. Therefore he will be a ruler of women and helpless animals, never a Romeo or soul mate ! God did not ordain Islam, Muslim havs no souls !

Since: Dec 12

Sydney

#39245 May 9, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Look at history of Australia and the founder members of that country.
Soldiers, convicts and free settlers - who built a better society than any Islamic country has ever achieved.

Your ignorance does you no credit at all.
sid

Chermside, Australia

#39246 May 10, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Look at history of Australia and the founder members of that country.
Ya dumb shit convicts were not the founders of australia, they were the labourers that built the first communities, as their punishment they were used as labourers, any with skills such as carpenters and stone masons were put to work building, making roads, bridges etc. What you don't know and haven't bothered to research is that the vast majority of convicts were sent to australia for petty crime because the english jails were overflowing. What you also didn't bother to research is that convicts made up a small percentage of immigrants that came to australia. This continual harping on about convicts is meaningless, they came to australia 7 to 10 generations ago.
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#39247 May 10, 2013
Trucker wrote:
<quoted text>look at Islam and the founder Khalifs of that ummah and members of that backward government .
They are the "best example" that History has to offer of Warriors and conquers of nations and the Rule of Law and the Rule of Justice that they established on the land they went into.

It is only because of their sincerity and justice and the way they dealt with people of other nations that they accepted Islam and they are still Muslims even after 1400 years.

What have you against them any how?
MUQ

Dammam, Saudi Arabia

#39248 May 10, 2013
Neville Thompson wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you mean prior to white civilization or after ?
Those who started 'White Civilization" in Australia and South America and North America for that purpose.
Foo

Blackbutt, Australia

#39249 May 10, 2013
Islam is stuck in the past , and cannot deal with the modern world.....it won't be around for too much longer......they seem to be eating each other alive in those countries , between all the different brands of islam ....suni bath wahabe etc etc ...no peace within islam it seems.
Fred

Australia

#39250 May 10, 2013
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nationa...

It is the second time a Sri Lankan asylum seeker living in the community has allegedly committed indecent assault this year after a university student was allegedly set upon in her dorm.

Dirty filthy illegal immigrants.

“Free Speech in a Free World ”

Since: May 10

May the Force be with You .

#39251 May 10, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Those who started 'White Civilization" in Australia and South America and North America for that purpose.
The British empire invaded and named this land Australia, I suppose much like Islam when it invaded other lands and expected native populations to become Muslim.
Slavery by Arabs can be seen as no different to the value of convicts that the British brought with them to perform their forced labour without pay.
Truth

UK

#39252 May 10, 2013
When Europeans invade other countries and steal their land , resources and teach the natives to worship a European God . When Muslims invade other countries they teach the natives to worship one God that has no gender or color .

“Free Speech in a Free World ”

Since: May 10

May the Force be with You .

#39253 May 10, 2013
Truth wrote:
When Europeans invade other countries and steal their land , resources and teach the natives to worship a European God . When Muslims invade other countries they teach the natives to worship one God that has no gender or color .
When Muslims "invade" ,what description of god do they provide ?
pointy pune poster

Pune, India

#39254 May 10, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
They are the "best example" that History has to offer of Warriors and conquers of nations and the Rule of Law and the Rule of Justice that they established on the land they went into.
It is only because of their sincerity and justice and the way they dealt with people of other nations that they accepted Islam and they are still Muslims even after 1400 years.
What have you against them any how?
history of india is contrary evidence to that. for a thousand years hindu women lived in fear that they could be picked up and carried away by Muslims to been slaved and raped into accepting islam.

So India's free society was no more and parents started forcing their daughters into staying indoors and covered.

islamic idea of a woman's modesty is one of the stupidest and most twisted idea that considers only modest women as honorable - totally contrary to any idea of civility or human rights. Women forced to cover up cause Muslim men are pigs who lose all control if they see an attractive woman. Thus only way is to force women to cover up and deny them their birth right to be a WOMAN. Indeed the burkha is a sign of muslim men's total dishonor and islams total failure.

That is what the khalifs imposed and that too by force on people who were in foreign lands after much much blood letting.

That was and is wrong in every way one can think off. Islam is humanities biggest mistake perhaps. And certainly Asia and middle easts biggest weakness which allows selfish supers powers to exploit us for oil.

An islam free asia would not be so easy to fool. But the automatic and inevitable fall of islam is being stalled by US UK EU oil interests and they are quick to attack or place sanctions on the more progressive countries like Iraq or Iran where increasing education levels lead to concomitant increase in rationalism and huge numbers of people leaving islam for atheism or even rationalism. The most progressive Iraq is now a ruined haven for islamic deviants. Imagine the gloom the real people of Iraq must be feeling.
Rorange

Sydney, Australia

#39255 May 10, 2013
MUQ wrote:
<quoted text>
Those who started 'White Civilization" in Australia and South America and North America for that purpose.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/pakistan-votes-un...

MUQ, do you think the Muslims here can have a " Civilized " election ?
pointy pune poster

Pune, India

#39256 May 10, 2013
Truth wrote:
When Europeans invade other countries and steal their land , resources and teach the natives to worship a European God . When Muslims invade other countries they teach the natives to worship one God that has no gender or color .
Invading was wrong. Islam invaded to force (not teach) other wiser peoples to worship their god. A good idea never needed violence to spread. Did Galileo have to kill a 100 million people to make humanity accept his ideas? Did Newton have to do that? Did the ancient rishi-muni of India ever use violence or army to make people accept their claims. No they used debate and logic in fear free environments. Only then is true understanding possible.[rishi = guides), muni = thinkers, expert user of mana ie mind]

And non existent islamic god is equally bad in the hands of muslims as the non existent European god was in the hands of europeans.

But most thoughtful and rational people around the world are moving ahead. Muslims are not, they would too, but they are denied a chance by the hardliners like in Bangladesh. All good people from around the world need to come together to support the de-brainwashed and educated amongst the muslims. And we need to (if need be) strike terror in the hearts of islamists who would use violence to deny these brave yet gentle souls simply because they realized the obvious, Islam is a regressive culture and have decided to exercise their freedom of religion / non religion, really the freedom of opinion. If offense is the only defense, then for every one non muslim killed by islamists, we should answer times ten. Do this a few times and they'll stop using terror, not touch the hair of anybody who gives up islam. Violence is (and was) the only language islamists understand.

Why don't you all muslims just give up this stupid islam, take up rationalism, for a better and immediately more peaceful world, less for our sakes and a lot more for yourselves.

God was once rightfully stripped of color and gender, now it is time to strip humanity of god. And replace with rationalism that is the logics of goodness and civility and love and peacefulness and other gentle ways of wise men that continue to deliver us from evil.
pointy pune poster

Pune, India

#39257 May 10, 2013
A good idea never needed violence to spread. Did Galileo have to kill a 100 million people to make ALL OF HUMANITY accept his ideas?

Why did humans accept his ideas, in every continent, race across religions and non religions? What property or attribute of man is in play here?

Answer is understanding and ability to think and understand. Something all humans are born with - our Intellect.

Hinduism (vedic schools of thought really) spread like that. Buddism spread like that. Christianity used both violence and preaching, ISLAM USED ONLY VIOLENCE.
sid

Chermside, Australia

#39258 May 10, 2013
Truth wrote:
When Europeans invade other countries and steal their land , resources and teach the natives to worship a European God . When Muslims invade other countries they teach the natives to worship one God that has no gender or color .
And if they don't accept your genderless colourless god the have their heads separated from their bodies or if they are lucky they are allowed to live as persecuted animals and pay tax to islam for their existence. By the way what colour is the christian god, I can't remember ever seeing or hearing any reference to that.
immigrant

Australia

#39259 May 10, 2013
OK OK, CONVICTS AND EX CRIMINALS YOU CAN BARK AS MUCH AS YOU WANT BUT THIS ONE IS ONE OF YOUR OWN, NO DOUBT YOU WILL BARK AT HIM WITH VENOM AS WELL, LLOL, LLOL,

MAY 07, 2013 “An Eye for an Eye”

The Terrorist “Radicalization” of the Tsarnaev Brothers

by GARY LEUPP

Where, how, when, why and by whom were the Tsarnaev brothers “radicalized”? These are the questions mainstream journalism poses and strives to answer. But one antonym of “radical”—“superficial”—descri bes this line of approach.
Leave aside the fact that “radicalization” is a vague, unhelpful concept without any definite political or moral content, and that many of us have been radicalized about various matters in appropriate, positive ways. In the 1960s, a sort of “radicalization” was a function of political awareness and decency.(What was “radical” then—opposition to the Vietnam War, support for Black Power, women’s liberation, gay rights—is hardly controversial today.) This use of language insults (leftist, Marxist, anti-imperialist) radicals such as myself and posits implicitly a collaborationist “moderation” as the desired norm. But the main problem with this approach is that it obfuscates the real issue: how did the brothers come to believe that it was okay to kill random civilians?
You Shouldn’t Kill, But…
For most people it’s difficult to fathom. What’s more fundamental to the social contract underlying human society than the rule,“You shall not kill”? The principle is enshrined in all law codes and religious traditions. Still, these same traditions allow, even sometimes mandate, exceptions.
The same Laws of Moses that state “You shall not kill” require the execution of adulterers (Deuteronomy 22:22) and any man “who lies with” other men (Leviticus 20:13). Worse, the same god who sets down the law orders his Chosen People to wipe out whole peoples. He obliges the Hebrew leader Joshua to execute the “curse of destruction” on the city of Jericho:“man and women, young and old, including the oxen, the sheep and the donkeys, slaughtering them all”(Joshua 6:21). The Lord of Hosts orders King Saul to punish the Amalakites for deeds of their ancestors:“Now, go and crush Amalek: put him under the curse of destruction with all that he possesses. Do not spare him, but kill man and woman, babe and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey”(1 Samuel 15:3).
One could go on and on with such citations, but I do not mean to solely target the Judeo-Christian tradition (or the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition, since these three Abrahamic faiths all draw upon Old Testament myths and values). Pagans’ moral codes similarly banned killing but with various exceptions. The Vikings had firm laws against homicide within their own communities. But when off on raids on the coasts of Britain, Ireland or France they had no qualms about slaughtering at random. Going a-viking was to take a break from the normal morals practiced around the fjords.
Normal domestic morality can contrast with the morality applied towards outsiders. This was nicely illustrated in 1944 when 13% of people polled in the U.S. declared that U.S. troops should “kill allJapanese.” On just one night in March 1945 U.S. forces killed 100,000 men, women and children in Tokyo through conventional bombing. This was the calculated intention; Gen. Curtis LeMay boasted of his desire to “scorch and boil and bake to death” countless Japanese.(LeMay went on to become the vice-presidential candidate on a ticket headed by segregationist Alabama governor George Wallace.) The atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed over 200,000 more. Those ordering the strikes could justify in their own minds this deliberate infliction of terror. Truman felt no qualms about dropping nukes on babies. Why not?
immigrant

Australia

#39260 May 10, 2013
Because they attacked us. So don’t they deserve to be bombed?
Surely there were other factors at play, not least of which was racism, which helps to explain the massive civilian death toll in the Korean, Vietnam, Afghan and Iraq wars as well. It’s easier to slaughter people if you think them less human than you. My point is just that the notion of collective guilt justified, and continues to justify, random butchery.
This willingness to conflate civilians and military, the guilty and the innocent, by virtue of nationality, and to kill “man and women, young and old,” is a feature of terrorist mentality. We are accustomed to associating it with “militant Islamists,”“Muslim extremists.” Some people associate it with Islam in general, although one searches the Qur’an in vain for tales of divinely ordered genocide such as those that occur in the Bible. But how many innocent civilians have been killed by Muslim terrorist attacks in the last century, and how many by U.S. bombs and U.S.-backed death squads?
Why Did the Tsarnaevs Come to Think It Was Right to Kill?
Dzhokhar Tsarnaev has told his interrogators that he and his brother were spurred to set off bombs in Boston on Marathon Monday by the U.S. wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. That this should be the catalyst is unsurprising. A 2003 UN-commissioned study found that the “War on Terror” was in fact increasing terrorism. Gareth Evans, former Australian foreign minister and head of the International Crisis Group, noted the same thing in 2004:“The unhappy truth is that the net result of the war on terror, so far at least, has been more war and more terror.” A 2006 National Intelligence Estimate representing the consensus of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies stated that the Iraq war had “made the overall terrorism problem worse.”
Some become “terrorists”(or, in some cases, decide to take up arms against U.S. occupiers and invaders, whom Washington and the Pentagon might regard as terrorists—or “illegal combatants”—although we should feel free to question such designations) because a loved one perished in a drone attack or was tortured during interrogation. They are motivated by personal vengeance and honor. Others see fellow Muslims somewhere victimized by the U.S. and hear the call to jihad in some far-off country. Others opt to vent their fury by blowing up random people in what they see as the belly of the beast.
Let’s imagine that the Tsarnaev brothers were indeed outraged by the things that offend many normal people. Let’s imagine that both came to see the war in Iraq, raging from 2003 (when the boys were 9 and 16) to 2011 (when they were 16 and 24) for what it really was: a war based on lies, producing over 100,000 civilian deaths. A horrendous war crime with enduring horrific repercussions for which no one has ever been tried or held to account.
No doubt they saw the disgusting photos of the humiliation and torture of Muslim prisoners in Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad made public in 2004. They could have made an impression on eleven and eighteen year old boys. Perhaps they learned that such treatment of Muslim prisoners, most of them charged with nothing and entirely innocent, was typical in Bagram in Afghanistan and at Guantanamo as well. One can imagine some feelings of indignation.
Maybe they saw the cockpit gunsight footage of the Apache helicopter attack over Baghdad in 2007, released by WikiLeaks in 2010, showing pilots and ground crew cavalierly discussing the killing of a dozen innocent Iraqi men including two Reuters employees.“Come on, let us shoot!” shouts someone requesting permission to fire as a van pulls up. The shooting resumes, injuring two children who were being driven to school.“Well, it’s their fault for bringing their kids into a battle,” one pilot says.
immigrant

Australia

#39261 May 10, 2013
Maybe they were outraged, like regular decent folks, at the gunners’ bloodlust (maybe bolstered by the false belief that they were avenging the 9/11 victims). That outrage itself would have been entirely appropriate, would it have not?
Who is an Innocent Civilian?
Of course one should distinguish between those responsible for all these crimes and the people of this country, like you and me. That’s indeed our premise in asking: how did these young men ever come to think otherwise?
But the distinction between the culpable regime and the innocent “American people” becomes muddied when you read polls showing that as recently as March 42% of the people in the U.S. believe the Iraq War was “not a mistake,” while (only) 53% believe otherwise. That forty-two percent of the U.S. adult population is roughly one hundred million people. Their opinions shouldn’t damn them; they are in any case largely shaped by the mass media, the pulpit and their own ignorance. But the fact that there is so much popular support at any particular time for U.S. atrocities among the people of this country (and sometimes it is overwhelming!) must make many around the world question the presumption of our collective innocence.
Why, they surely ask, do the Americans enjoying the “freedom” to participate in elections, always elect these people who attack, invade and bomb us? Why do they not drive them from power when they do? Why do they instead re-elect them, and never prosecute any leaders for war crimes? If their government is really “theirs”—freely chosen and supported—are they not our enemies as much as their leaders?
(By the way: is it not also an outrage that these polls in the aftermath of wars, including those in Vietnam and Iraq, always give the respondent the two options “mistake?” or “not a mistake”? Those responsible for war are thus assumed to have had good intentions. There is no way to respond:“I believe it was a calculated crime.” This tells the world something about U.S. capacity for self-criticism.)
The distinction between regime and people also blurs when you read that 65% of U.S. residents polled support the drone strikes producing more terror in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen and Somalia. Or even when you go to Fenway Park in Boston, just wanting to enjoy the baseball, and are forced to listen to the requisite tributes to “our heroes” supposedly “defending our freedoms,” and note the enthusiastic crowd response to any mention of “our men and women in uniform.” Must it not sound to many like applause for the slaughter of innocents?
And mustn’t the sight of crowds of flag-wavers chanting USA! USA! USA!, aggressively affirming their pride in “their” country (uniting implicitly with the 1% who actually control this country) send chills down any conscious person’s spine? This after all sounds very much like this.
One might compassionately think,“Well, these people are ignorant, brainwashed.” Or one might think, these people are just evil. If you are a Muslim, part of a community under constant surveillance and suspicion, you might see every unprovoked U.S. killing of Muslims abroad as an attack on yourself. Is not mindless U.S. patriotism and knee-jerk support for each new war also a threat to yourself? How then to respond?
The U.S. responded to an attack on itself by some Muslims twelve years ago by attacking numerous Muslims with no connection to the attack. The ongoing slaughter in Afghanistan has nothing to do with al-Qaeda and 9/11 but is rather an effort to contain the resurgent Taliban (who are not and never were the same as al-Qaeda) and aligned forces fighting to topple the U.S.-imposed, highly corrupt, unpopular Karzai regime. In this effort, as in Iraq, U.S. forces are killing civilians with impunity.
immigrant

Australia

#39262 May 10, 2013
The moral question thus arises: If George W. Bush could slaughter Iraqi civilians in the name of fighting Muslim extremism, and if Barack Obama can bomb innocents in several Muslim countries virtually at will, why can’t Muslims kill U.S. civilians in the name of fighting back? Isn’t it a matter of “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” as it says in the Bible (Exodus 21:24; see also the Qur’an 2:178)? At some point the older brother seems to have concluded precisely thus.
One should mention that there’s actually a difference between the tribal mentality “us vs. them” and the “eye for an eye” principle. The latter was apparently intended to curb the practice of indiscriminate and disproportionate revenge. Rather than killing everyone in the neighboring village for the death of one of your own at the hands of one of theirs, you just kill one and call it even.(I won’t digress on the irony involved in the fact that contemporary Israeli leaders, in effect rejecting Exodus 21:24, boast of their deliberately “disproportionate responses” to any attack on themselves. It is an effort to terrify all foes.)
In the history of religion one sees a further evolution from this “eye for an eye” principle to the (arguably higher) principle of forgiveness. Thus we find in the Buddhist Dhammapada:
“How will hate leave him if a man forever thinks,
‘He abused me, he hit me, he defeated me, he robbed me’?
Will hate ever touch him if he does not think,
‘He abused me, he hit me, he defeated me, he robbed me’?
There is only one eternal law:
Hate never destroys hate: only love does.”
And of course Jesus is supposed to have said (Matthew 5:38):
“You have heard how it was said: Eye for eye and tooth for tooth. But I say this to you: offer no resistance to the wicked. On the contrary, if someone hits you on the right cheek, offer him the other as well…” In the theology of St. Paul, the “New Law” of Christian forgiveness supersedes the “Old Law” of retribution of Mosaic law.
But such refined thoughts have rarely impacted the behavior of modern states. Indeed the rule has been:“Isn’t it ok to make them feel our pain—by killing their children, so rich in hope and promise, shattering their peace of mind as they go about their lives, actively or just tacitly supporting their government that has provoked us?” That’s how Gen. Curtis LeMay felt, surely, in waging his war without mercy. I think this is how the Tsarnaevs also came to feel.
Some Comparisons
On April 15, the brothers’ bombs killed two young women and a little boy, occasioning a national outpouring of grief and countless tributes to the imagined bravery of we Bostonians and the heroism of local police.
On that same day in Baghdad, according to Iraq Body Count, 30 civilians were killed by car bombs and IEDs for reasons directly connected to the U.S. invasion and occupation. In all 62 were killed in Iraq by bombs or gunfire for such reasons, just another typical day in that wrecked country.
On the same day, nine Afghan civilians were killed in the ongoing civil war sparked by the invasion and occupation. A roadside bomb killed seven. Four were killed by an IED the next day. A week before U.S. airstrikes had killed 17 civilians including 12 children in Kunar province; the public clamor forced President Karzai to order U.S. special forces out of the province.

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