The failure of U.S. education

[Andy]

THJ wrote:

Endless posts that are leading nowhere. Educators on here are trying to defend their well recognized failures by trying to shift blame to everything and everyone but themselves. The kids are still going thorough the "public" government run education system and are not learning what is needed to compete in today's world. The education employees are collecting their salaries and benefits and are not performing their jobs.
The answer is to shut down the entire system nationwide, fire all school personnel. Then double the salaries and re-hire only those highly qualified and motivated to teach and administer the educational system. That would clean out the majority of the dead wood that has set up shop at our economic expense and the kids educational opportunity.

Hmmm...OK. Fire all the incompetent teachers, double salaries, rehire the highly-qualified ones. Interesting concept...except...now you've reduced by a certain % the number of teachers, yet the number of students remains the same, which means larger class sizes. And that won't cause teaching quality to suffer, particularly in tougher schools that were hard-pressed BEFORE you implemented Roman-style decimation to the teaching corps?

Geez! Instead of just popping out knee-jerk responses, why don't you actually offer something of substance?

[Think 1st]

foxhill bill wrote:

<quoted text>
Athelete and entertainers are proving themselves not to be the role models that they once were. John Wayne and Micky Mantle are gone. Now we have druggies for atheletes, and tax evaders and people that want to run down our country for Hollywood stars.
When I was a kid, my science teacher was my role model. Teaching was honorable and teachers did not sexually molest kids like they do today. What's with that? You may not hire or fire but you can identify the incompetant teachers, try to coach them, and if necessary turn them into the administrators for proper handling. Admittedly the administrators are not a perfect picture of competance either or they would already have dealt with the problem. Sad state our schools.

I agree, there are worthless teachers and many of them are mentored and helped by other teachers. My point was that bottom line even if after I've tried helping another improve and they fail to demonstrate a positive change, I can say something to the administrator, but it is he or she that makes the decision.

I've posted numerous times about the divide showing up in the teaching ranks and that poor quality teachers need to be removed.

[Think 1st]

Andy wrote:

<quoted text>
Hmmm...OK. Fire all the incompetent teachers, double salaries, rehire the highly-qualified ones. Interesting concept...except...now you've reduced by a certain % the number of teachers, yet the number of students remains the same, which means larger class sizes. And that won't cause teaching quality to suffer, particularly in tougher schools that were hard-pressed BEFORE you implemented Roman-style decimation to the teaching corps?
Geez! Instead of just popping out knee-jerk responses, why don't you actually offer something of substance?

Gee Andy, you almost sounded like me at the end there. I always relied upon you to provide the strong reasoned and thoughtful response.

If we're going to flip roles give me a heads up, so I can work on developing a more refined approach.

Have a good one.

[SamuelPaul]

Think 1st wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree, there are worthless teachers and many of them are mentored and helped by other teachers. My point was that bottom line even if after I've tried helping another improve and they fail to demonstrate a positive change, I can say something to the administrator, but it is he or she that makes the decision.
I've posted numerous times about the divide showing up in the teaching ranks and that poor quality teachers need to be removed.

In a voucher environment, the parents will know who the good teachers are and aren't and will vote with their feet.

I suspect that most parents don't want to depend on Think 1st and the similarly presumptuous to sniff at other teachers and decide who does and does not pass muster.

Educating our children is too important a task to sub out to government workers -- inertia for the status quo notwithstanding.

Teachers in government schools (i.e., government workers) are afraid of the healthy competition of the free market and hide behind their students.

[TidewaterLiberta rian]

SamuelPaul wrote:

<quoted text>
In a voucher environment, the parents will know who the good teachers are and aren't and will vote with their feet.
I suspect that most parents don't want to depend on Think 1st and the similarly presumptuous to sniff at other teachers and decide who does and does not pass muster.
Educating our children is too important a task to sub out to government workers -- inertia for the status quo notwithstanding.
Teachers in government schools (i.e., government workers) are afraid of the healthy competition of the free market and hide behind their students.

I remember how silly the postal service workers looked when they argued for a continued monopoly in the business of package delivery.

Ah, the sweet smell of fresh air and marketplace alternatives.

Let's bring it to the entrenched mediocrity of government schools, government buses, government lunches, government workers, government curricula, government retirement programs, government cars, government per diems, assistants to the assistant, government meetings, presentations by government employees to elected government officials, and government powerpoint presentations and study groups and ad hoc committees.

Ah, I can almost smell that fresh air now.

[FredandEthel]

TidewaterLibertarian wrote:

<quoted text>
I remember how silly the postal service workers looked when they argued for a continued monopoly in the business of package delivery.
Ah, the sweet smell of fresh air and marketplace alternatives.
Let's bring it to the entrenched mediocrity of government schools, government buses, government lunches, government workers, government curricula, government retirement programs, government cars, government per diems, assistants to the assistant, government meetings, presentations by government employees to elected government officials, and government powerpoint presentations and study groups and ad hoc committees.
Ah, I can almost smell that fresh air now.

I can smell it too!

GET IN HERE, ETHEL!

[THJ]

Andy wrote:

<quoted text>
Hmmm...OK. Fire all the incompetent teachers, double salaries, rehire the highly-qualified ones. Interesting concept...except...now you've reduced by a certain % the number of teachers, yet the number of students remains the same, which means larger class sizes. And that won't cause teaching quality to suffer, particularly in tougher schools that were hard-pressed BEFORE you implemented Roman-style decimation to the teaching corps?
Geez! Instead of just popping out knee-jerk responses, why don't you actually offer something of substance?

Well maybe you should do a little explaining to those of us on this thread how it is you had to go to Winchester to find a teaching position. One would think you would stay in your home area to improve the education level of your neighbors. Could it be qualification related? You tell us. I'm sure that the local school boards would be happy to have a good local well qualified teacher in their systems

[Mark]

The nightmare now is that because of sycophantic ladder climbing and narcissistic politics of recognition, it is not competence that floats to the top, but self promotion. Many administrators are so incompetent themselves that they don’t know what an incompetent teacher is. They equate ‘sucking up’ as a good teachers and view those with their own ideas as rebellious. No, the system is badly crippled and possibly irrevocably. Sadly, even the public no longer knows what a competent teacher is, it is not one who gets high test scores from students, but one who transforms a students heart.

[Andy]

Think 1st wrote:

<quoted text>
Gee Andy, you almost sounded like me at the end there. I always relied upon you to provide the strong reasoned and thoughtful response.
If we're going to flip roles give me a heads up, so I can work on developing a more refined approach.
Have a good one.

HAHAHAHA!!!! My bad. If we're going to compete for the Tag Team belt, I guess i need to work on my comm skills. LOL!

[Andy]

Hmmm...that's the best your narrow-minded brain can come up with - a backhanded compliment? Like, Winchester (where I live) or Clarke County (where I work) have lower standards for new recruits than York County, where I grew up? Please, show more mental firepower than that.
I'm in Winchester because my wife, whom I met in college, is from the Winchester area and has a lot of family. It has nothing to do with qualifications or anything; it is purely a preference on our part for this moment in our lives.

[Think 1st]

SamuelPaul wrote:

<quoted text>
In a voucher environment, the parents will know who the good teachers are and aren't and will vote with their feet.
I suspect that most parents don't want to depend on Think 1st and the similarly presumptuous to sniff at other teachers and decide who does and does not pass muster.
Educating our children is too important a task to sub out to government workers -- inertia for the status quo notwithstanding.
Teachers in government schools (i.e., government workers) are afraid of the healthy competition of the free market and hide behind their students.

First you demand that teachers turn in poor performers for firing, when it is explained to you that teachers don't have that authority and in fact do work with their colleagues to improve everyone's performance you say it is presumptuous.

You ignore the requirements of the law in your greed and selfishness to demand money for yourself, while failing to address how the voucher system will meet the requirements of that law.

Further you've completely ignored the question of transportation costs, which would significantly increase the costs of independent schools.

If you al managed to actually read (or develop your comprehension levels) you would have seen that not a signal teacher on here has said that the education system is perfect, and have offered suggestions or ways that it could be improved.

However, you and TidewaterLibetarian have no concern at all about the quality of education, but are driven by nothing more than common greed.

[SamuelPaul]

Think 1st wrote:

<quoted text>
First you demand that teachers turn in poor performers for firing, when it is explained to you that teachers don't have that authority and in fact do work with their colleagues to improve everyone's performance you say it is presumptuous.
You ignore the requirements of the law in your greed and selfishness to demand money for yourself, while failing to address how the voucher system will meet the requirements of that law.
Further you've completely ignored the question of transportation costs, which would significantly increase the costs of independent schools.
If you al managed to actually read (or develop your comprehension levels) you would have seen that not a signal teacher on here has said that the education system is perfect, and have offered suggestions or ways that it could be improved.
However, you and TidewaterLibetarian have no concern at all about the quality of education, but are driven by nothing more than common greed.

You seem frightened of the world of private enterprise. Are you afraid you couldn't handle it?? Perhaps you have been disappointed in the real world and seek the cloistered environment of government employment.

Grow up and consider the world of private enterprise; with some help, you can handle it. You might not get to sniff your colleagues, but you might get to teach.

Laws can be changed, of course.

[SamuelPaul]

Think 1st wrote:

<quoted text>
First you demand that teachers turn in poor performers for firing, when it is explained to you that teachers don't have that authority and in fact do work with their colleagues to improve everyone's performance you say it is presumptuous.
You ignore the requirements of the law in your greed and selfishness to demand money for yourself, while failing to address how the voucher system will meet the requirements of that law.
Further you've completely ignored the question of transportation costs, which would significantly increase the costs of independent schools.
If you al managed to actually read (or develop your comprehension levels) you would have seen that not a signal teacher on here has said that the education system is perfect, and have offered suggestions or ways that it could be improved.
However, you and TidewaterLibetarian have no concern at all about the quality of education, but are driven by nothing more than common greed.

I have never demanded that teachers turn in poor performers for firing. Not sure what you are thinking about.
You may have me mixed up with another poster.

I think you mean "single" rather than "signal."

[Think 1st]

SamuelPaul wrote:

<quoted text>
I have never demanded that teachers turn in poor performers for firing. Not sure what you are thinking about.
You may have me mixed up with another poster.
I think you mean "single" rather than "signal."

You are correct on both accounts. My apologies.

[Think 1st]

SamuelPaul wrote:

<quoted text>
You seem frightened of the world of private enterprise. Are you afraid you couldn't handle it?? Perhaps you have been disappointed in the real world and seek the cloistered environment of government employment.
Grow up and consider the world of private enterprise; with some help, you can handle it. You might not get to sniff your colleagues, but you might get to teach.
Laws can be changed, of course.

No fear at all.

Perhaps you'd like to actually address the issues presented, or perhaps you have nothing better to offer than the "change the law... personal insult" approach I posted about much earlier.

And your odd fixation on sniffing people is too much information.

[Andy]

SamuelPaul wrote:

<quoted text>
You seem frightened of the world of private enterprise. Are you afraid you couldn't handle it?? Perhaps you have been disappointed in the real world and seek the cloistered environment of government employment.
Grow up and consider the world of private enterprise; with some help, you can handle it. You might not get to sniff your colleagues, but you might get to teach.
Laws can be changed, of course.

There's no fear of private enterprise, just you (and your ilk) ignoring very valid questions to its effectiveness.

1.) You have yet to explain how private enterprise would resolve overcrowding, public school transportation issues, ensuring that all children are educated instead of only those that "turn a profit" via scores, etc.
2.) You seemingly think that schools, which deal with taking young people and making them better than they were when they came in, is as easy as maximizing dollars by picking the best package shipper, the best car, or the most efficient means of production. Education doesn't work well on a "business model" approach, as no two children learn the same way.{Thus one of the MAJOR failings of NCLB - it mandates a "standardized" assessment format, with very little flexibility - at the moment - to accommodate for those with special needs.}
3.) Privatization of some aspects of public schools (food service, maintenance, custodial services, etc.) is perhaps a better focus of those energies. Counting the beans in those areas is more easily done.

So, unless you've actually worked IN a school, you really can't know of what you speak; you only have hypotheticals.

[TidewaterLiberta rian]

"ilk"?? Sorry you didn't get into your first choice of academic programs.

It would seem that the public schools, which have performed so miserably, have the explaining to do.

Have you every noticed how much the "high school graduates" working in fast food restaurants depend on the computers in making change?

Have you ever listened to these young people talk to one another? What language is that??

Your statement that "no two children learn the same way" is very silly. A class of twenty students doesn't require twenty methodologies.

[Think 1st]

TidewaterLibertarian wrote:

"ilk"?? Sorry you didn't get into your first choice of academic programs.
It would seem that the public schools, which have performed so miserably, have the explaining to do.
Have you every noticed how much the "high school graduates" working in fast food restaurants depend on the computers in making change?
Have you ever listened to these young people talk to one another? What language is that??
Your statement that "no two children learn the same way" is very silly. A class of twenty students doesn't require twenty methodologies.

You were better off when you decided to stop posting.

Your attempts at rebuttal are pathetic as you only attempt to insult the poster, while demonstrating your complete ignorance of education.

The fact that after all this back and forth you all still haven't come up with how a voucher system would address the issues posed highlights the failure of that solution to truly address the issues in education.

[Dum Ass Prodect of HCS]

I am surprised the lawyers representing the parents haven't started suing teachers for malpractice considering the products of their profession. Oh I forgot, if you believe the whiney teachers on these posts, they are so underpaid they are not worth suing.

[Dum Ass Prodect of HCS]

Think 1st wrote:

<quoted text>
You were better off when you decided to stop posting.
Your attempts at rebuttal are pathetic as you only attempt to insult the poster, while demonstrating your complete ignorance of education.
The fact that after all this back and forth you all still haven't come up with how a voucher system would address the issues posed highlights the failure of that solution to truly address the issues in education.

"Ignorance of Education" could describe a huge percentage of today's students. Even the graduated ones.