The failure of U.S. education

If an unfriendly power had attempted to impose on America the mediocre educational performance that exists today, we might well have viewed it as an act of war.

[Just a thought]

This is perhaps the most important problem facing the nation and no one has a comment?

[SydneyPaul]

The government does as good a job running education as it does in running retirement programs, healthcare, and emergency response programs.

A majority of citizens seem committed to letting the government do this important work.

[Mark]

You have to remember, the dismal state of education is multi generation by now, and a vast majority of the US is highly uneducated with the mistaken perception that they are educated. Probably the least educated of all professions is teachers. Teachers are the most unfamiliar with the true learning process and true conceptions of literature and learning. It is the most important issue facing the fate of our great nation, but if teachers are so woefully lost, what is anyone else going to do about it?

[Just a thought]

Mark wrote:

You have to remember, the dismal state of education is multi generation by now, and a vast majority of the US is highly uneducated with the mistaken perception that they are educated. Probably the least educated of all professions is teachers. Teachers are the most unfamiliar with the true learning process and true conceptions of literature and learning. It is the most important issue facing the fate of our great nation, but if teachers are so woefully lost, what is anyone else going to do about it?

I think the article had a very good recommendation, "The law should have set uniform standards and measures for the nation, then freed states, districts and schools to produce those results as they think best." Instead, it left standards up to the states, which have an incentive to dumb them down to make compliance easier.

We should then return to neighborhood schools to increase involvement of the parents in the children's education.

Next, we should switch to computer based education material once basic language skills have been learned.

The current system measures one person against another. This produces both successes and failures. The group which scores in the lower quartile has their self esteem damaged by the (unfair) comparison. In fact, we are trying to teach something for which this group is not ready or we are forcing a failure in order to make the curve come out as expected!

We need a system which is pass/fail for all course work. Then test to determine interest, skills and knowledge in subject areas to determine where the individual should best spend their time to achieve their full potential. Not everyone wants or needs to be a doctor of philosophy. Some people would be much happier stocking the shelves in a store.

The goal should be to achieve maximum quality of life for each individual and society as a whole.

Elements of a solution:
1) Teach the children why they want to go to school and succeed - to make more money!
2) Fund all education from the income tax at the state level on a per student basis - transfer to locality for implementation
3) Use computers for all education material once the student learns to read
4) Computers to guide student's use of the material
5) Teach to the test
6) Test everything a student needs to know until they know it
7) Teach to the individual student's interest and capabilities
8) The teacher is there for individual support - the computers cover the material
9) Universal Internet Usage - If you want to compete in the Internet Age, you might want to use the Internet
10) Approach providers to offer a tiered charge based on income of family
11) Subsidize low income families
12) All course work available at home - no books to carry - go at your own pace
13) Use certificates of completion for job placement and college acceptance

[ABC]

Just a thought wrote:

<quoted text>
I think the article had a very good recommendation, "The law should have set uniform standards and measures for the nation, then freed states, districts and schools to produce those results as they think best." Instead, it left standards up to the states, which have an incentive to dumb them down to make compliance easier.
We should then return to neighborhood schools to increase involvement of the parents in the children's education.
Next, we should switch to computer based education material once basic language skills have been learned.
The current system measures one person against another. This produces both successes and failures. The group which scores in the lower quartile has their self esteem damaged by the (unfair) comparison. In fact, we are trying to teach something for which this group is not ready or we are forcing a failure in order to make the curve come out as expected!
We need a system which is pass/fail for all course work. Then test to determine interest, skills and knowledge in subject areas to determine where the individual should best spend their time to achieve their full potential. Not everyone wants or needs to be a doctor of philosophy. Some people would be much happier stocking the shelves in a store.
The goal should be to achieve maximum quality of life for each individual and society as a whole.
Elements of a solution:
1) Teach the children why they want to go to school and succeed - to make more money!
2) Fund all education from the income tax at the state level on a per student basis - transfer to locality for implementation
3) Use computers for all education material once the student learns to read
4) Computers to guide student's use of the material
5) Teach to the test
6) Test everything a student needs to know until they know it
7) Teach to the individual student's interest and capabilities
8) The teacher is there for individual support - the computers cover the material
9) Universal Internet Usage - If you want to compete in the Internet Age, you might want to use the Internet
10) Approach providers to offer a tiered charge based on income of family
11) Subsidize low income families
12) All course work available at home - no books to carry - go at your own pace
13) Use certificates of completion for job placement and college acceptance

Simple solution, get the government out of the education business alltogether. School vouchers are the answer. Send your kids where you want them to go based on the individual characteristics of 1. your kids, and 2. the school. The free market of education will correct and guide the standards that are needed.

[BuBBa]

Just a thought wrote:

<quoted text>
I think the article had a very good recommendation, "The law should have set uniform standards and measures for the nation, then freed states, districts and schools to produce those results as they think best." Instead, it left standards up to the states, which have an incentive to dumb them down to make compliance easier.
We should then return to neighborhood schools to increase involvement of the parents in the children's education.
Next, we should switch to computer based education material once basic language skills have been learned.
The current system measures one person against another. This produces both successes and failures. The group which scores in the lower quartile has their self esteem damaged by the (unfair) comparison. In fact, we are trying to teach something for which this group is not ready or we are forcing a failure in order to make the curve come out as expected!
We need a system which is pass/fail for all course work. Then test to determine interest, skills and knowledge in subject areas to determine where the individual should best spend their time to achieve their full potential. Not everyone wants or needs to be a doctor of philosophy. Some people would be much happier stocking the shelves in a store.
The goal should be to achieve maximum quality of life for each individual and society as a whole.
Elements of a solution:
1) Teach the children why they want to go to school and succeed - to make more money!
2) Fund all education from the income tax at the state level on a per student basis - transfer to locality for implementation
3) Use computers for all education material once the student learns to read
4) Computers to guide student's use of the material
5) Teach to the test
6) Test everything a student needs to know until they know it
7) Teach to the individual student's interest and capabilities
8) The teacher is there for individual support - the computers cover the material
9) Universal Internet Usage - If you want to compete in the Internet Age, you might want to use the Internet
10) Approach providers to offer a tiered charge based on income of family
11) Subsidize low income families
12) All course work available at home - no books to carry - go at your own pace
13) Use certificates of completion for job placement and college acceptance

Good grief more liberal socialist garbage. How do you think we achieved the success we have through the years? Not from what you suggest. Self esteem? BS! Either they learn or fail and dig ditches the rest of their lives assuming those of us working don't have our earnings confiscated to give to them by the liberal democrats.

[Mark]

Just a thought wrote:

<quoted text>
I think the article had a very good recommendation, "The law should have set uniform standards and measures for the nation, then freed states, districts and schools to produce those results as they think best." Instead, it left standards up to the states, which have an incentive to dumb them down to make compliance easier.
We should then return to neighborhood schools to increase involvement of the parents in the children's education.
Next, we should switch to computer based education material once basic language skills have been learned.
The current system measures one person against another. This produces both successes and failures. The group which scores in the lower quartile has their self esteem damaged by the (unfair) comparison. In fact, we are trying to teach something for which this group is not ready or we are forcing a failure in order to make the curve come out as expected!
We need a system which is pass/fail for all course work. Then test to determine interest, skills and knowledge in subject areas to determine where the individual should best spend their time to achieve their full potential. Not everyone wants or needs to be a doctor of philosophy. Some people would be much happier stocking the shelves in a store.
The goal should be to achieve maximum quality of life for each individual and society as a whole.
Elements of a solution:
1) Teach the children why they want to go to school and succeed - to make more money!
2) Fund all education from the income tax at the state level on a per student basis - transfer to locality for implementation
3) Use computers for all education material once the student learns to read
4) Computers to guide student's use of the material
5) Teach to the test
6) Test everything a student needs to know until they know it
7) Teach to the individual student's interest and capabilities
8) The teacher is there for individual support - the computers cover the material
9) Universal Internet Usage - If you want to compete in the Internet Age, you might want to use the Internet
10) Approach providers to offer a tiered charge based on income of family
11) Subsidize low income families
12) All course work available at home - no books to carry - go at your own pace
13) Use certificates of completion for job placement and college acceptance

It is just this social engineering mindset that has education in so much trouble right now. Vouchers will fix nothing, only defer the problem to another domain where it can remain undetectable for a few more years.
I will suggest that there are very few teachers today that even know what an education is or should be, that even know what true literacy is. The field of education is so hopelessly lost in a jungle of narcissism, the 'politics of recognition' and sychophantic sucking up, that finding a way out would indeed be a miracle.
I doubt a teacher could even produce an intelligent and coherant counter arguement to my above statement.

[Andy]

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
It is just this social engineering mindset that has education in so much trouble right now. Vouchers will fix nothing, only defer the problem to another domain where it can remain undetectable for a few more years.
I will suggest that there are very few teachers today that even know what an education is or should be, that even know what true literacy is. The field of education is so hopelessly lost in a jungle of narcissism, the 'politics of recognition' and sychophantic sucking up, that finding a way out would indeed be a miracle.
I doubt a teacher could even produce an intelligent and coherant counter arguement to my above statement.

Actually, Mark, quite a few teachers, and others from a host of career fields, could blow any of a myriad of holes in your lame arguments. I, myself, am a librarian in a public middle school, and take great exception to your nasty generalizations.

You make these extremely derogatory posits about the teaching profession, but offer nothing of substance to back up your rants. You seem to just sit back and revel in your smug I-know-more-than-the rest- of-you arrogance.

Are there ineffective teachers? Yes, there are, just as there are dynamic and highly effective ones. Yet, you would lump ALL teachers into one negative cesspool of ignorance. How inaccurate, and unfortunate.

What you fail to acknowledge are a few simple facts of the trade:
(A) Teachers do not SET education policy. The standards are developed by government officials in D.C. or the various state capitals, at times by people who have NOT worked in education at all.
(B) These "standards" are regularly set up as "minimum benchmarks," yet the requisite assessments treat ALL students equally - regardless of the more-than-ample evidence that not all students learn the same (particularly those with legit learning disabilities and/or other handicaps).
(C) In many areas of the country (hard-pressed urban areas, poorer rural regions, etc.), a lack of dedicated resources (less money for materials, supplies, and equipment; inadequate facilities; not enough quality teachers; etc.) greatly hinders the ability of those students to achieve success equal to their neighbors in more affluent areas/regions. Study after study supports this.
(D) Parental support is paramount to students success. If the parents do nt support the schools, then what is left to motivate the students to work hard? If all they see around them are the "hard times," where's the hope? Parents MUST work WITH the schools so that the students see the light at the end of the tunnel.

That said, Mark, I am also a realist. I work in a public school, and I do see examples of what you rail against. There IS nepotism, there IS a dedicated effort to "teach to the test" and crow about assessments as the be-all-and-end-all measurement of a school's success. However, things are NOT as dire and all-encompassing as you crudely "suggest." You offer NO support to your insulting tripe; you "suggest" things, and hypothesize, but all you wind up coming across as is someone "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

[better learning]

I Perpose that teachers need to be educated on how to take better steps in learning how to teach in away to help a student to learn diffrent education tools when they that the troditional stander way they teach is not working for a student when they are in elementry and in middle school age and high school teacher are some teachers are so quick to put some kids in classes that make them feel different they are not different they just have a different way of learning. The schools need to train teachers for this. And when a teacher has done an outstanding job she or he should be reconize and awarde for this.

[Hukd on fonix]

better learning wrote:

I Perpose that teachers need to be educated on how to take better steps in learning how to teach in away to help a student to learn diffrent education tools when they that the troditional stander way they teach is not working for a student when they are in elementry and in middle school age and high school teacher are some teachers are so quick to put some kids in classes that make them feel different they are not different they just have a different way of learning. The schools need to train teachers for this. And when a teacher has done an outstanding job she or he should be reconize and awarde for this.

I think techrs shud haev to sit in the classrums too sometms, so thye know what ids like.

[Mark]

Andy wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, Mark, quite a few teachers, and others from a host of career fields, could blow any of a myriad of holes in your lame arguments. I, myself, am a librarian in a public middle school, and take great exception to your nasty D.C. or the various state capitals, at times by people who have NOT worked in education at all.
(B) These "standards" are regularly set up as "minimum benchmarks," yet the requisite assessments treat ALL students equally - regardless of the more-than-ample evidence that not all students learn the same (particularly those with legit learning disabilities and/or other handicaps).
(C) In many areas of the country (hard-pressed urban areas, poorer rural regions, etc.), a lack of dedicated resources (less money for materials, supplies, and equipment; inadequate facilities; not enough quality teachers; etc.) greatly hinders the ability of those students to achieve success equal to their neighbors in more affluent areas/regions. Study after study supports this.
(D) Parental support is paramount to students success. If the parents do nt support the schools, then what is left to motivate the students to work hard? If all they see around them are the "hard times," where's the hope? Parents MUST work WITH the schools so that the students see the light at the end of the tunnel.
That said, Mark, I am also a realist. I work in a public school, and I do see examples of what you rail against. There IS nepotism, there IS a dedicated effort to "teach to the test" and crow about assessments as the be-all-and-end-all measurement of a school's success. However, things are NOT as dire and all-encompassing as you crudely "suggest." You offer NO support to your insulting tripe; you "suggest" things, and hypothesize, but all you wind up coming across as is someone "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

Andy, Thank you for and intelligent, sincere and articulate response. I know and love many good hearted teachers, and I will concede that there are some that are very good at what they do, but being good and doing what is expected of the educational system today is not good no matter how good you are. I have plenty of evidence and examples to back up my claims, it doesn't take a genius to recognize the state of the world today and to see how the social fabric is unraveling does it? Who's fault is it? Ask a teacher and they will give you fifty reasons not related to our teaching, but really, if we want to call teachers “professionals” is it not incumbent upon teachers to find solutions to these problems that don’t rely on sources outside the school.
If you are like me, and you consider that education is the process of transmitting civilization to develop self-governing citizens by offering them best that humanity has to offer to students who are intrinsically motivated to cultivate wisdom and virtue through mastery, than you must admit, that nearly all teachers are failures. Is a teacher not one who teaches and model ethical and virtuous behavior and models a balance between the 3 dimensions of human life? The social political, the individual and the religious? Or as Plato would characterize them the desires or belly, reason or the head, and the spirit or heart. The entire educational system is in the social political realm, witch precludes failure unless you consider good test scores and controlled behavior to part of the definition of success.
I can well understand that if you take offense at my comments, your self preservation requires you to minimize me to someone “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” but I can assure you Andy, your opinion does not make it so.
Thanks again for a wonderful and sincere response.

[Equalizer]

Andy, welcome back! I thought you had been kidnapped by your students. Don't be so touchy and negative to those who have opinions that differ from your own.

I thought male librarians were against the law in Virginia. By the way, your use of "myself" is grammatically incorrect.

Andy wrote:

<quoted text>
I, myself, am a librarian in a public middle school, and take great exception to your nasty generalizations.
"

[Think 1st]

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
Andy, Thank you for and intelligent, sincere and articulate response. I know and love many good hearted teachers, and I will concede that there are some that are very good at what they do, but being good and doing what is expected of the educational system today is not good no matter how good you are. I have plenty of evidence and examples to back up my claims, it doesn't take a genius to recognize the state of the world today and to see how the social fabric is unraveling does it? Who's fault is it? Ask a teacher and they will give you fifty reasons not related to our teaching, but really, if we want to call teachers “professionals” is it not incumbent upon teachers to find solutions to these problems that don’t rely on sources outside the school.
If you are like me, and you consider that education is the process of transmitting civilization to develop self-governing citizens by offering them best that humanity has to offer to students who are intrinsically motivated to cultivate wisdom and virtue through mastery, than you must admit, that nearly all teachers are failures. Is a teacher not one who teaches and model ethical and virtuous behavior and models a balance between the 3 dimensions of human life? The social political, the individual and the religious? Or as Plato would characterize them the desires or belly, reason or the head, and the spirit or heart. The entire educational system is in the social political realm, witch precludes failure unless you consider good test scores and controlled behavior to part of the definition of success.
I can well understand that if you take offense at my comments, your self preservation requires you to minimize me to someone “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” but I can assure you Andy, your opinion does not make it so.
Thanks again for a wonderful and sincere response.

Unfortunately that isn't the reality of teaching or the world. We have to deal with what walks through the door into the classroom and unfortunately that's rarely, "students who are intrinsically motivated to cultivate wisdom and virtue through mastery".

As a professional I am constantly trying to find solutions within the school setting that will help students succeed. However, it is naive to think that all of the solutions can be made there.

If my state is besieged by rebels, who operate from an outside state, no matter what I do within my own state nothing will truly remedy the situation until the source is addressed (which lies outside of my own area).

The true bottom line is: Stop making excuses.
No excuses for poor teachers (they do exist)
No excuses for students who fail
No excuses for apathetic parents
No excuses for admin (career vs. school)
No excuses for communities (they get what they elect in)

[Mark]

Think 1st wrote:

<quoted text>
Unfortunately that isn't the reality of teaching or the world. We have to deal with what walks through the door into the classroom and unfortunately that's rarely, "students who are intrinsically motivated to cultivate wisdom and virtue through mastery".
As a professional I am constantly trying to find solutions within the school setting that will help students succeed. However, it is naive to think that all of the solutions can be made there.
If my state is besieged by rebels, who operate from an outside state, no matter what I do within my own state nothing will truly remedy the situation until the source is addressed (which lies outside of my own area).
The true bottom line is: Stop making excuses.
No excuses for poor teachers (they do exist)
No excuses for students who fail
No excuses for apathetic parents
No excuses for admin (career vs. school)
No excuses for communities (they get what they elect in)

Excellent Post! I quite agree, stop making excuses! However, I see what walks through the door, and nearly without exception, it is not a student intrinsically motivated to do anything except recess, lunch and PE, in fact, much worse is a self preservation induced coma. As a professional, is it not our job to figure out how to wake up whatever walks through the door? In my opinion, that is the reality, regardless of appearances. If you are searching for remedies, I suggest that you look back as I have to our great intellectual tradition. I have seen miracles of revival in response to Plato, aristotle, augustine, Dante etc.... Ahh, but that would require that we deeply acquire these works, and it has been many generations since this was popular.
Thanks again for a very smart post.

[Mark]

Equalizer wrote:

Andy, welcome back! I thought you had been kidnapped by your students. Don't be so touchy and negative to those who have opinions that differ from your own.
I thought male librarians were against the law in Virginia. By the way, your use of "myself" is grammatically incorrect.
<quoted text>

Ya, characterizing my generalizations as "nasty" was a little queer wasn't it? hmmmm I am not as easily offended as Andy, but it is a debate worth having no matter whose feathers get ruffled.

[ParkerT]

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
It is just this social engineering mindset that has education in so much trouble right now. Vouchers will fix nothing, only defer the problem to another domain where it can remain undetectable for a few more years.
I will suggest that there are very few teachers today that even know what an education is or should be, that even know what true literacy is. The field of education is so hopelessly lost in a jungle of narcissism, the 'politics of recognition' and sychophantic sucking up, that finding a way out would indeed be a miracle.
I doubt a teacher could even produce an intelligent and coherant counter arguement to my above statement.

If "vouchers wouldn't accomplish anything," then education is the one field of endeavor where competition doesn't improve quality and lower cost.

I don't think education occupies such a unique position.

[Andy]

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
Andy, Thank you for and intelligent, sincere and articulate response. I know and love many good hearted teachers, and I will concede that there are some that are very good at what they do, but being good and doing what is expected of the educational system today is not good no matter how good you are. I have plenty of evidence and examples to back up my claims, it doesn't take a genius to recognize the state of the world today and to see how the social fabric is unraveling does it? Who's fault is it? Ask a teacher and they will give you fifty reasons not related to our teaching, but really, if we want to call teachers “professionals” is it not incumbent upon teachers to find solutions to these problems that don’t rely on sources outside the school ... I can well understand that if you take offense at my comments, your self preservation requires you to minimize me to someone “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” but I can assure you Andy, your opinion does not make it so.
Thanks again for a wonderful and sincere response.

Mark, I objected to your blanket generalizations of "all teachers." If you can cite good examples to the contrary, then your initial arguments lose even more substance.

You quote Plato and others... yet... Plato and those others lived in a time vastly different from today. You seem to believe that teachers call all of the shots, have a good deal of control over their subject matter, score reporting, and don't strive to push students to mastery of skills, critical thinking, and the like. Most teachers - such as the ones I work with, and others I know around this state - DO want to push students into deeper concepts, more sophisticated thinking, and higher-order skills. However, there are a lot of reasons why that does not happen (lack of resources, the teachers themselves lack sufficient skills <a whole different kettle of fish>, inordinate pressure to "pass the SOL test" and make accreditation, etc.).

When the Standards of Learning (SOL) were codified into the Code of Virginia in the mid 1990s, and when NCLB placed such tough and stringent importance on their incumbent assessments (not that standards and accountability are wrong - yet a third different fish kettle), an inordinant amount of pressure came to bear on teachers to "pass the tests." Pressure from parents, their communities, their administrators, and government agencies. Again, accountability is a good thing to have (and, for too long, was sorely lacking in some areas). However, when just "teachers" are lambasted - as you and quite a few others on here did in this and other threads, all of that blame is unfairly rested on the shoulders of a small group.

What a lot of folks often forget is that failures in U.S. education often are a "systemic" failure - meaning, there are a host of problems that need to be addressed (better national standards; more equitable resource allocation; better training for the teachers AND administrators; increased and improved parental involvement; etc.). Merely making "teachers" the scapegoats will not address any of these critical needs.

Your statement above, that "is it not incumbent for teachers to find solutions to these problems that don't rely on sources outside of the school," seems to assume that teachers don't already do that. Do you really believe this? Do you also believe that teachers have as much authority and "say" in the decision-making process as you seem to indicate? I would offer, sir, that things are not as near to that, in reality.

Getting the U.S. education system back up to its former position of prominence will take a lot of effort, time, and resources - more than what is currently afforded.

[Andy]

Equalizer wrote:

Andy, welcome back! I thought you had been kidnapped by your students. Don't be so touchy and negative to those who have opinions that differ from your own.
I thought male librarians were against the law in Virginia. By the way, your use of "myself" is grammatically incorrect.
<quoted text>

Thanks, Equalizer. Got bogged down with the school musical, a Book Fair, and other aspects of my job.

However, I do take offense when someone (regardless of their intention of a debate) make negative, blanket generalizations about an entire career field - as well as just lay all blame on "teachers" alone. That is unfair, and ignorant of the reality of the situation.

Against the law? Nahhh...it's just not seen as "cool" by many (those hip movies about "The Librarian" as an adventurer - starring Noah Wylie - notwithstanding...LOL!), so you just don't see all that many. I went to a conference for school librarians in Virginia last fall, and - out of some 1,100 attendees - only about 35 or so were male. Go figure...

You are right - it was a redundant pronoun. Consider it duly noted.:-)

[takenitlight]

I call it the "The failure of PARENTS"!

[Andy]

Mark wrote:

<quoted text>
Ya, characterizing my generalizations as "nasty" was a little queer wasn't it? hmmmm I am not as easily offended as Andy, but it is a debate worth having no matter whose feathers get ruffled.

Mark, when you end a post with a statement like this one...

"I will suggest that there are very few teachers today that even know what an education is or should be, that even know what true literacy is. The field of education is so hopelessly lost in a jungle of narcissism, the 'politics of recognition' and sychophantic sucking up, that finding a way out would indeed be a miracle.
I doubt a teacher could even produce an intelligent and coherant counter arguement to my above statement."

...it seems like a personal challenge, and an insulting one at that. From your subsequent posts, you appear to be an educator, one with high standards (or at least high ideals), but one who appears to be consistently disappointed by both your colleagues and your students.

I will give you that my choice of the adjective "nasty" was perhaps harsher than called for. However, know that (A) there are a lot of teachers out there who DO strive to achieve what you posit as a Platoian educational ideal, and (B) there are the realities that Think 1st and othes have mentioned that often get in the way of those ideals.