“There are um 6 artifacts of DNA”

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#148 Oct 17, 2012
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct, with the fact that the dead not bleeding. The reason is no blood pressure, hence to blood flow. However, IF they thought JB was already dead, then they staged the whole thing including the rape then, she would be still clinging on to life, and she would bleed. I think the "sexual abuse" was from staging.
CC
I don't know how you can call any one 'loving' that would jab their child or sister with a jagged broken stick to stage a scene. They thought she was dead? Really? No previous molestation and suddenly, by accident she's clobbered, and you think a phony molestation would come into their ever loving minds?
If you believe she wasn't previously molested, why didn't CALLING 911 COME TO THEIR MIND?!! sheesh! People still call 911 when they believe someone's dead..they don't molest them.
The Truth Hurts

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#149 Oct 17, 2012
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
why was blood in her underpants if not from molestation? If memory serves, the dead don't bleed. If the paintbrush molestation was staging, they started staging while she was still alive.
It didn't sound like itching down there to hear Arndt or Wecht or Kolar or Jane Harmer tell it. Dr Wecht said she was healing from previous molestation and Arndt cringed as she said "what was done to Jonbenet". A dead six year old with a 'normal' eroding hyman must not have crossed their desks before because they didn't seem to think it was all that normal.
I believe Wecht concluded that she had been penetrated with the paintbrush (or whatever) shortly before or VERY shortly after her death. He gave his reasons for why he believed this but I cannot remember them right now.
If it was done shortly after she expired, I believe she still would have bled. IMO

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#150 Oct 17, 2012
The Truth Hurts wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe Wecht concluded that she had been penetrated with the paintbrush (or whatever) shortly before or VERY shortly after her death. He gave his reasons for why he believed this but I cannot remember them right now.
If it was done shortly after she expired, I believe she still would have bled. IMO
That's strange, could swear Wecht believed she suffered "acute and chronic" sexual abuse? Need new glasses, I guess.
So that settles it! No molestation before that night and it just happened to be an idea one of those loving parents came up with to cover for an accidental bonk on the head. OK guess it's safe to assume most 'normal' people like the Ramseys would shove a broken stick up their dead loved one if God forbid they had an accident and died. I'm not your average person, I prefer calling 911 when things go bad...don't have the stomach for such brutality.
Bakatari

Lihue, HI

#151 Oct 17, 2012
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know how you can call any one 'loving' that would jab their child or sister with a jagged broken stick to stage a scene. They thought she was dead? Really? No previous molestation and suddenly, by accident she's clobbered, and you think a phony molestation would come into their ever loving minds?
If you believe she wasn't previously molested, why didn't CALLING 911 COME TO THEIR MIND?!! sheesh! People still call 911 when they believe someone's dead..they don't molest them.
You must remember, the Rs were in a lot of stress. In panic, they wrote the frivolous ransom note, and put the body in the basement. Staging a sexual assault is a high possibility.
CC

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#152 Oct 17, 2012
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
You must remember, the Rs were in a lot of stress. In panic, they wrote the frivolous ransom note, and put the body in the basement. Staging a sexual assault is a high possibility.
CC
People in a panic call 911 before they can think about anything! They don't molest their dead child. The Ramseys called 911 after they molested her to 'stage' a scene? WHY???? With all their money and patrician appearances, you really believe they'd rather play a sick game then take their chances and get her immediate help?

I'm sorry, the idea that they'd need to stage a sexual molestation to cover up a headblow (which can be lied about whatever way it happened)is ridiculous. No matter if Burke hit her or Mommy did it, why not attempt to save her?
The Truth Hurts

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#153 Oct 17, 2012
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
That's strange, could swear Wecht believed she suffered "acute and chronic" sexual abuse? Need new glasses, I guess.
So that settles it! No molestation before that night and it just happened to be an idea one of those loving parents came up with to cover for an accidental bonk on the head. OK guess it's safe to assume most 'normal' people like the Ramseys would shove a broken stick up their dead loved one if God forbid they had an accident and died. I'm not your average person, I prefer calling 911 when things go bad...don't have the stomach for such brutality.
He did believe that, RT...but I was talking about the sexual injuries inflicted upon her the night of the murder.
I also believe she had been sexually molested prior to her murder; make no mistake about that.
The Truth Hurts

Bloomfield Hills, MI

#154 Oct 17, 2012
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
You must remember, the Rs were in a lot of stress. In panic, they wrote the frivolous ransom note, and put the body in the basement. Staging a sexual assault is a high possibility.
CC
I don't buy that. There is a remote possibility but I don't believe it.
Unless there was prior sexual abuse, there was no reason to "stage" such a thing. I don't believe the Ramseys were monsters who would be capable of doing such a thing unless there was a REAL reason to do it.
Attempting to cover prior sexual abuse makes sense.
Both of the Ramseys got awfully upset at the mere suggestion that she had been sexually assaulted prior to her death. They refused to even consider that even someone outside of their family could have been doing it. And they got extremely defensive, as well.

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#155 Oct 17, 2012
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>I don't know how you can call any one 'loving' that would jab their child or sister with a jagged broken stick to stage a scene. They thought she was dead? Really? No previous molestation and suddenly, by accident she's clobbered, and you think a phony molestation would come into their ever loving minds?
If you believe she wasn't previously molested, why didn't CALLING 911 COME TO THEIR MIND?!! sheesh! People still call 911 when they believe someone's dead..they don't molest them.
SHOCKING, I agree with you. If the Rs staged the crime scene to make it appear to be a violent sex crime, then there must have been a perverse reason behind these actions....well beyond that of an accidental, skull crushing, head blow.

If there had been no history of sexual abuse, what do loving parents have to gain from inflicting such disgusting acts upon their beloved daughter? What other reason would there be to stage such a violent crime scene? I can think of no other logical explanation for this RDI scenario...

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#156 Oct 17, 2012
The Truth Hurts wrote:
<quoted text>Both of the Ramseys got awfully upset at the mere suggestion that she had been sexually assaulted prior to her death. They refused to even consider that even someone outside of their family could have been doing it. And they got extremely defensive, as well.
Who wouldn't be "awfully upset"? What Ramsey actions/statements do you categorize as "defensive" behaviors?...and would it not be normal for a parent, guilty or not, to be offended and become defensive @ the notion of prior sexual abuse?
learnin

Baldwin City, KS

#158 Oct 17, 2012
koldkase wrote:
<quoted text>
This is always a problem in this case, and one the Ramseys exploited to get away with what they did to JonBenet.
When I say "the Ramseys," I am including other members of the family who had access to JonBenet before the night she was murdered, as well.
I don't know who was sexually assaulting her, but I have done the research and there was no one in the family who can be excluded "because they loved her."
NO ONE.
A child that age who is "acting out" sexually is in dire need of being assessed by a professional for abuse. That's a fact.
JonBenet was seeing a therapist. How many six year olds do you know who are seeing a therapist?
Burke was seeing a therapist, according to some sources. How many nine year olds do you know who are seeing a therapist?
JonBenet ended up sexually assaulted, bludgeoned, and strangled in her own home with her "loving" family right there. Why would they cover up for an accident by doing what was done to the child? The only reason is they were covering up for MORE than an accident.
That's my opinion only, of course. But I suggest you do some research on child molestation: you'll find the statistics are rather shocking on how many children are molested, most often by older siblings, as a matter of fact.
I don't know who was sexually assaulting JonBenet prior to the murder, but the evidence is clear: there are enough red flags we know about with the Ramseys' HISTORY, the evidence, and specifically the autopsy, to conclude these crimes weren't about a loving family or parents. They were about the sexual abuse and violent death of a child.
What John and/or Patsy would do to cover for incest or violence in their household, we only have the evidence to indicate.
So really, whatever you or I think, it's a done deal anyway.
Right on!

Young girl found dead.
Young girl has blood in her panties.
Foreign material found in girls vagina.
Young girls vaginal area has been wiped clean.
Young girls blood wiped off her thigh.
Young girl had major toileting issues and was seeing a therapist.
Mother worried about young girl being so flirtatious.
Autopsy shows an ERODED hymen; chronic inflammatory changes.
Staged crime scene

Good Lord! Are there really people out there who believe the evidence doesn't scream: MOLESTATION?
learnin

Baldwin City, KS

#159 Oct 17, 2012
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
You must remember, the Rs were in a lot of stress. In panic, they wrote the frivolous ransom note, and put the body in the basement. Staging a sexual assault is a high possibility.
CC
"Staging a sexual assault is a high possibility."

Not if you're a loving parent.
learnin

Baldwin City, KS

#160 Oct 17, 2012
The Truth Hurts wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't buy that. There is a remote possibility but I don't believe it.
Unless there was prior sexual abuse, there was no reason to "stage" such a thing. I don't believe the Ramseys were monsters who would be capable of doing such a thing unless there was a REAL reason to do it.
Attempting to cover prior sexual abuse makes sense.
Both of the Ramseys got awfully upset at the mere suggestion that she had been sexually assaulted prior to her death. They refused to even consider that even someone outside of their family could have been doing it. And they got extremely defensive, as well.
Not only that. If you're staging a sexual molestation, why would you clean up the blood? Why would you redress? Wouldn't a sexual molestation be better staged by leaving the victim's bottoms off and legs spread apart, etc.??

This was staged as a kidnapping to cover an accident and sexual molestation, IMO.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#161 Oct 18, 2012
The Truth Hurts wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't buy that. There is a remote possibility but I don't believe it.
Unless there was prior sexual abuse, there was no reason to "stage" such a thing. I don't believe the Ramseys were monsters who would be capable of doing such a thing unless there was a REAL reason to do it.
Attempting to cover prior sexual abuse makes sense.
Both of the Ramseys got awfully upset at the mere suggestion that she had been sexually assaulted prior to her death. They refused to even consider that even someone outside of their family could have been doing it. And they got extremely defensive, as well.
The most "telling" aspect of the Ramseys being told she had been sexually abused was the reaction of "defensive" rather than being appalled and demanding to know WHO might have done that. THAT would be a normal reaction for parents who are told something as devastating as that but NO, the Ramseys preferred to just deny that she was abused at all

NO parent does that unless they have the inside story
The Truth Hurts

Farmington, MI

#162 Oct 18, 2012
Mama2JML wrote:
<quoted text>Who wouldn't be "awfully upset"? What Ramsey actions/statements do you categorize as "defensive" behaviors?...and would it not be normal for a parent, guilty or not, to be offended and become defensive @ the notion of prior sexual abuse?
Not to the point where they flat out denied it happened (unless they were somehow involved.) I would want to know if my child was being sexually abused by someone and I would be the first to wrack my brain trying to think of who might have likely done it (which would have helped lead to the killer, no doubt.)
They refused to even consider it. You don't find something strange about that? I do.
If you don't know what "actions"/"stat ements" they made that categorized their defensive behaviors, then you don't know this case very well and shouldn't be discussing it.
The Truth Hurts

Farmington, MI

#163 Oct 18, 2012
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
The most "telling" aspect of the Ramseys being told she had been sexually abused was the reaction of "defensive" rather than being appalled and demanding to know WHO might have done that. THAT would be a normal reaction for parents who are told something as devastating as that but NO, the Ramseys preferred to just deny that she was abused at all
NO parent does that unless they have the inside story
Solid right, Cap.
The Truth Hurts

Farmington, MI

#164 Oct 18, 2012
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
Not only that. If you're staging a sexual molestation, why would you clean up the blood? Why would you redress? Wouldn't a sexual molestation be better staged by leaving the victim's bottoms off and legs spread apart, etc.??
This was staged as a kidnapping to cover an accident and sexual molestation, IMO.
ITA

“2009, 2011, 2012”

Since: Aug 11

Roll Tide - Good Luck, Tide!

#165 Oct 18, 2012
When reading over this entire discussion, there appears to be a huge argument or difference of opinion about how "loving" parents, ie., the Ramseys, could have done such horrible things to their daughter. So, to me, what each of you has shown is that loving parents do NOT do such horrible things to their daughter and it shows that you are busy proving exactly that.

All the illogical statements made to back your opinions only give credence to counter your claims. CC says: "The erosion could have been caused by a combination of infections and her inserting objects to relieve an itch in there"

Well, CC must not have understood Dr. Wecht's REPORT wherein he stated unequivocably that JonBenet had been abused prior to the murder, even going so far to say that it could have been on-going for SOME time prior to the murder.

Then several posters correctly took issue with him and presented opposing opinions to counter his claims.

Then another poster claims, "What John and/or Patsy would do to cover for incest or violence in their household, we only have the evidence to indicate." And who among posters here is qualified to correctly read and understand the evidence -- especially when we should remember Linda Arndt's reminder that the public is only aware of a very small portion of ALL the evidence in the case?

But then, rT comes back with: "That's strange, could swear Wecht believed she suffered "acute and chronic" sexual abuse? Need new glasses, I guess.
So that settles it! No molestation before that night and it just happened to be an idea one of those loving parents came up with to cover for an accidental bonk on the head. OK guess it's safe to assume most 'normal' people like the Ramseys would shove a broken stick up their dead loved one if God forbid they had an accident and died. I'm not your average person, I prefer calling 911 when things go bad... which does illustrate the absurdity of the arguments put forth previously.

But it also points out some facts that are disregarded when posters here start analyzing the Ramsey's actions. When things went bad, they DID call 911.

But CC claims: "You must remember, the Rs were in a lot of stress. In panic, they wrote the frivolous ransom note, and put the body in the basement. Staging a sexual assault is a high possibility," This remark opens a lot of doors to other speculations than the one assumed by CC. But I suggest that rather than speculation, in some cases, what we glean from his observations can be deemed more factual, e.g., his statement the Ramseys were in a lot of stress.

Anyone with eyes in their heads could see Patsy's condition after the discovery of JB's body. She was a complete, total wreck. Yet, some here have claimed Patsy wrote the ransom note as part of their covering up the crime. I contend that Patsy Ramsey would have been incapable of writing her name had she been a party to the murder or even had discovered anyone else in the family being a party to it. And her condition remained thus for many days. While she might have had lucid moments, I seriously doubt if she could have composed herself enough during any time after JB's death to create all the conditions necessary to stage the crime scene, much less compose and write the ransom note in the time she would have had to do it.

So while y'all continue arguing about things that are so out of the question as to be completely groundless, you refuse to consider the possibility of what fits the elements of the crime to a T. And that is how all this brouhaha can be avoided by admitting that there was an intruder who came in that night and did all the things to JB that you cannot agree that her parents did to her. And he was a cold, cunning, and diabolical person who had no qualms about what he did to her. If anything, his actions gave him great pleasure and satisfaction. And in his sick mind, he still lives and thrives on the memories of that horrible night.

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#167 Oct 18, 2012
candy wrote:
Quote: "People in a panic call 911 before they can think about anything!"
A lot of them DON'T. The Midyettes NEVER called 911. Jason had been vomiting and screaming for THREE days, and when they finally took him to the PEDITRICIAN, the Doctor was so shocked at the baby's appearance that she told them they had to take the baby to the emergency right then, they could not afford to wait for an ambulence. Joseph Dowler did the same thing with his gravely injured son. HE WAITED FOR THE KID TO SNAP OUT OF IT. The kid never came around and died. Ricky Holland's step parents never called 911, they just ditched the body. This happens ALL THE TIME in child abuse leading to death cases.
The Menendez brothers didn't call 911 after they shotgunned their parents. They went back in the room, picked up all the shotgun shells, got rid of the guns and their clothing, THEN went back home to call 911.
I was speaking to their innocence, Candy. I was talking in terms of INNOCENT people who discover their child's taken a big bonk to the head. I was not talking about guilty parents, I was talking about IF THE RAMSEYS DIDN'T DO IT. Brother!
Bakatari

Lihue, HI

#168 Oct 18, 2012
The Truth Hurts wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't buy that. There is a remote possibility but I don't believe it.
Unless there was prior sexual abuse, there was no reason to "stage" such a thing. I don't believe the Ramseys were monsters who would be capable of doing such a thing unless there was a REAL reason to do it.
Attempting to cover prior sexual abuse makes sense.
Both of the Ramseys got awfully upset at the mere suggestion that she had been sexually assaulted prior to her death. They refused to even consider that even someone outside of their family could have been doing it. And they got extremely defensive, as well.
Hi TTH,
Actually, this case has a LOT of things that do not make logical sense whether an intruder OR a family member or members.
Among them are:
The phony ransom note.
The pineapple in the small intestines of the victim.
The skull fracture combined with the garrote strangulation.
The construction of the garrote while the cord is already around the victim's neck.
Of course, the "sexual abuse".
The amount demanded in the ransom note of $118K.
The FACT that the RN clearly pointed out that if they talked to anyone, that JB would be killed, yet Patsy called up the Whites, the Fernies, and the pastor and asked them to come over.

There is no rhyme or reasoning for what was done, in spite of who you think committed the crime.

So, staging the sexual abuse after they thought she was dead, does not make any sense, but under stress and duress, they did a LOT of things that throws logic or reasoning out the window.

This is regardless of whether you are RDI OR IDI.
CC
The Truth Hurts

Southfield, MI

#169 Oct 18, 2012
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi TTH,
Actually, this case has a LOT of things that do not make logical sense whether an intruder OR a family member or members.
Among them are:
The phony ransom note.
The pineapple in the small intestines of the victim.
The skull fracture combined with the garrote strangulation.
The construction of the garrote while the cord is already around the victim's neck.
Of course, the "sexual abuse".
The amount demanded in the ransom note of $118K.
The FACT that the RN clearly pointed out that if they talked to anyone, that JB would be killed, yet Patsy called up the Whites, the Fernies, and the pastor and asked them to come over.
There is no rhyme or reasoning for what was done, in spite of who you think committed the crime.
So, staging the sexual abuse after they thought she was dead, does not make any sense, but under stress and duress, they did a LOT of things that throws logic or reasoning out the window.
This is regardless of whether you are RDI OR IDI.
CC
Hi CC....
All of those things make sense if you believe Burke was experimenting with his sister sexually prior to her death and the Ramseys knew about it, that he whacked her over the head for whatever reason and the Ramseys staged the crime scene to cover for him.
JB obviously was not asleep when the family came home; hence the pineapple in her intestines. We just don't know what took place that prompted the whack on her head.
The rest of the things you mentioned were just staging and proof of their involvement.
JB was dead before midnight and the Ramseys knew it. It is no fluke that her headstone gives 12/25/96 as her date of death. They know precisely when she expired. IMO

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