The "Touch DNA" is worthless.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#661 Sep 5, 2013
The Ramseys made some bad decisions and a lot of those decisions made them look guilty to a lot of people. However, I tend to more-or-less accept the John Douglas explanation for their post-offence behavior, that they were,“wealthy, sophisticated people and were totally used to working through attorneys and other professionals…” <1>

I think that the Ramseys very early on came to believe that BPD was out to get them. So, I can understand why they would be reluctant to meet or interact with them. I can understand them being afraid of meeting with them. I can understand them thinking, I’m not gonna deal with those a-holes, I’ll deal with the d.a.’s office, I’ll hire my own investigators, I’ll make nice with this smit character. I’ll do anything, but I won’t deal with BPD.

Like I said, bad decisions.

<1> The Cases That Haunt Us; p. 287
...

AK

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#662 Sep 5, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
The Ramseys made some bad decisions and a lot of those decisions made them look guilty to a lot of people. However, I tend to more-or-less accept the John Douglas explanation for their post-offence behavior, that they were,“wealthy, sophisticated people and were totally used to working through attorneys and other professionals…” <1>
I think that the Ramseys very early on came to believe that BPD was out to get them. So, I can understand why they would be reluctant to meet or interact with them. I can understand them being afraid of meeting with them. I can understand them thinking, I’m not gonna deal with those a-holes, I’ll deal with the d.a.’s office, I’ll hire my own investigators, I’ll make nice with this smit character. I’ll do anything, but I won’t deal with BPD.
Like I said, bad decisions.
<1> The Cases That Haunt Us; p. 287
...
AK
Your first sentence sums up a lot and I thank you for acknowledging that. So many people don't even acknowledge that

I think for most people it comes down to the fact that it just doesn't matter what is happening. If you are not a guilty party, you do whatever it takes to clear your name (regardless of whether they HAVE to or should have to) as a suspect; so for me, there is no excuse for their behavior.

I keep going back to the Van Dams who humiliated themselves and made their life an open book in their efforts to find out what happened to Danielle

None of the reasons you have suggested are sufficient enough IMO to prevent 99% of most parents to hound the police, cooperate, etc. I do acknowledge that there is that small percentage that you are right, but I'll stick with the odds

Your quoting of Douglas is just one of those "experts" that we will have to disagree about. His opinion for me is meaningless in this case, but that's just a my opinion of this expert :)
Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#663 Sep 5, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
The Ramseys made some bad decisions and a lot of those decisions made them look guilty to a lot of people. However, I tend to more-or-less accept the John Douglas explanation for their post-offence behavior, that they were,“wealthy, sophisticated people and were totally used to working through attorneys and other professionals…” <1>
I think that the Ramseys very early on came to believe that BPD was out to get them. So, I can understand why they would be reluctant to meet or interact with them. I can understand them being afraid of meeting with them. I can understand them thinking, I’m not gonna deal with those a-holes, I’ll deal with the d.a.’s office, I’ll hire my own investigators, I’ll make nice with this smit character. I’ll do anything, but I won’t deal with BPD.
Like I said, bad decisions.
<1> The Cases That Haunt Us; p. 287
...
AK
When does wealth and sophistication trump a parent's natural desire to cooperate with authorities in an effort to find the "monster" who killed their child?

Since: May 11

AOL

#664 Sep 5, 2013
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
When does wealth and sophistication trump a parent's natural desire to cooperate with authorities in an effort to find the "monster" who killed their child?
Right on! Their wealth and sophistication should have been more a reason to cooperate..they had the connections and resources to scorch the earth in search of their child's murderer.
Funny, if they were so innocent, why did Bynum tell JR it looked bad? It hadn't hit the media yet, so it didn't look back to the beercan collectors..who'd it look bad to? Bynum, a lawyer. It wasn't because the cops had it out for JR, it was JR behaving in such a way even his buddy lawyer could see was suspect! Bynum knows it's suspicious when a so called crime victim books a flight before the body's cold.

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

#665 Sep 5, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
The Ramseys made some bad decisions and a lot of those decisions made them look guilty to a lot of people.
AK
Bad decisions? Conscious Choice!

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#666 Sep 6, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Your first sentence sums up a lot and I thank you for acknowledging that. So many people don't even acknowledge that
I think for most people it comes down to the fact that it just doesn't matter what is happening. If you are not a guilty party, you do whatever it takes to clear your name (regardless of whether they HAVE to or should have to) as a suspect; so for me, there is no excuse for their behavior.
I keep going back to the Van Dams who humiliated themselves and made their life an open book in their efforts to find out what happened to Danielle
None of the reasons you have suggested are sufficient enough IMO to prevent 99% of most parents to hound the police, cooperate, etc. I do acknowledge that there is that small percentage that you are right, but I'll stick with the odds
Your quoting of Douglas is just one of those "experts" that we will have to disagree about. His opinion for me is meaningless in this case, but that's just a my opinion of this expert :)
I disagree with several aspects of Douglas’ assessment of this crime, too; ‘though, probably not in the same way as you. However, I think that what he says about the Ramseys being “used to working through attorneys and other professionals” rings true. I thought you might agree because this is consistent with your belief that the Ramseys called their attorneys before they called 911 that morning.
I can’t disagree with you on this,“If you are not a guilty party, you do whatever it takes to clear your name...” But,“whatever it takes” means just that “whatever it takes” and if it takes “sidestepping BPD” and working with the DA’s office, Smit, private investigators, etc then that’s what it takes. IOWs,“whatever it takes” does not necessarily mean working with BPD as BPD, or you, or I, or anyone else might expect or wish.

I think the Ramseys could have handled things differently, and I think they might have except instead they chose to, for the most part, do as their lawyers asked.
...

AK

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#667 Sep 6, 2013
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
When does wealth and sophistication trump a parent's natural desire to cooperate with authorities in an effort to find the "monster" who killed their child?
Wealthy and sophisticated are only Douglas’ description of the Ramseys and not the relevant or meaningful part of the quote I used. This is the important part, they “were totally used to working through attorneys and other professionals.”
...

AK

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#668 Sep 6, 2013
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
Right on! Their wealth and sophistication should have been more a reason to cooperate..they had the connections and resources to scorch the earth in search of their child's murderer.
Funny, if they were so innocent, why did Bynum tell JR it looked bad? It hadn't hit the media yet, so it didn't look back to the beercan collectors..who'd it look bad to? Bynum, a lawyer. It wasn't because the cops had it out for JR, it was JR behaving in such a way even his buddy lawyer could see was suspect! Bynum knows it's suspicious when a so called crime victim books a flight before the body's cold.
Were they sophisticated? It’s a rhetorical question, I just don’t really agree with this description but maybe others do. Anyways...

If they truly had the “connections and resources to scorch the earth in search of their child's murderer” then they didn’t really need BPD; did they?
...

AK

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#669 Sep 6, 2013
Legal__Eagle wrote:
<quoted text>
Bad decisions? Conscious Choice!
Yes, bad decisions and yes,“Conscious Choice!”
...

AK

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#670 Sep 6, 2013
I totally agree. Good to see ya!:)
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly right, Doc. The idea that the parent of a dead child wanted to leave town without answers, speaks volumes- and not in a good way. Never mind they didn't want to answer questions, why didn't THEY have questions? Works both ways and both ways scream GUILTY!

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#671 Sep 6, 2013
Not only do I disagree about the wealthy and sophisticated label you have placed on them, but they were so newly "rich" that the ink wasn't dry on the money yet.

There is such a difference with people who have newly acquired money, and how they act, and the Ramseys flaunted that difference. Whereas "old money" people probably do use their attorneys for everything, the Ramseys weren't "used" to working through attorneys. If they had been they wouldn't have had to go out and "HIRE" attorneys, nor would they "HIRE" attorneys for everyone in their family including John's ex-wife. The representation of every member of the Ramsey clan would have been seamless if they were "used" to working through attorneys. We never would have heard that "John" hired all these people - they would have just merely been represented by counsel.
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
Wealthy and sophisticated are only Douglas’ description of the Ramseys and not the relevant or meaningful part of the quote I used. This is the important part, they “were totally used to working through attorneys and other professionals.”
...
AK

Since: Sep 11

Alberton, South Africa

#672 Sep 6, 2013
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
Giving over all evidence to the attorneys before/without an indictment is not considered mistreatment. To the contrary, it is being very considerate. Consideration most of us would not be afforded.
I am reading the interviews of the Ramseys and the police were very respectful. In fact, I was wondering with their hands tied as they were, what actually they hoped to achieve.
No, the Ramseys may have suffered much from bad publicity--but that was not the fault of BPD. That was due to their lack of cooperation in the murder investigation of their child that they cared so much about. To think I would rather lawyer up than beat feet down to the police station in an effort to clear myself so that the authorities could look for the real killer, is laughable.
The police treated them with deference when they thought a kidnapping had been committed. The mistakes the police made were not closing off the house to all the people Patsy invited in to comfort her. How fortunate for the Ramsyes--or not--that any DNA collected in that house would be so contaminated that the "kidnapper" would never be found. Then it turned out to be a murder. Too much time elapsed, too many people through the crime scene. How lucky for the murderer. Maybe that is why a ransom note was planted. The police were busy looking for a kidnapper and not a body. That insured muddied waters of evidence.
One can't help but wonder how respectful the police would have been during those interviews had the Ramseys' attorneys not been present? But that's not the point. The first and foremost duty of the police was not to be "nice" to the family, but to show respect and concern for the VICTIM by taking control of the situation and behaving in the professional and competent manner every citizen has the right to expect of them, thereby automatically showing consideration for the family by inspiring their trust and confidence which in turn would have ensured their full cooperation. One of the most foolish things the BPD ever did was to alienate their main suspects, who therefore naturally didn't trust them but placed their trust in their attorneys instead.

The "mistakes" of the police went way beyond merely not sealing off the house to friends. Their first mess-up was in sending a patrol car to the house in full view of the neighbourhood when they should have known a kidnapper always warns the family not to inform the authorities. They should have brought tracker dogs in and sent everyone else away. Upon discovery of the body, they should have immediately taken both Ramseys down to the police station to be questioned separately. Had they done this from the outset, none of what followed would ever have happened and the Ramseys would have been either arrested or cleared instead of remaining forever under suspicion. If I were in their shoes, I'd feel so bitter towards the police, I, too, would have no interest in speaking with them years later. It's quite evident they don't have what it takes to solve this crime anyway nor do they appear to care.

I don't believe for a moment that Patsy's intention in phoning their friends was to "muddy up" the crime scene. Had that been the case, she'd have phoned them BEFORE calling the police, thereby ensuring the crime scene was well and truly contaminated before the police arrived.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#673 Sep 6, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree with several aspects of Douglas’ assessment of this crime, too; ‘though, probably not in the same way as you. However, I think that what he says about the Ramseys being “used to working through attorneys and other professionals” rings true. I thought you might agree because this is consistent with your belief that the Ramseys called their attorneys before they called 911 that morning.
I can’t disagree with you on this,“If you are not a guilty party, you do whatever it takes to clear your name...” But,“whatever it takes” means just that “whatever it takes” and if it takes “sidestepping BPD” and working with the DA’s office, Smit, private investigators, etc then that’s what it takes. IOWs,“whatever it takes” does not necessarily mean working with BPD as BPD, or you, or I, or anyone else might expect or wish.
I think the Ramseys could have handled things differently, and I think they might have except instead they chose to, for the most part, do as their lawyers asked.
...
AK
They didn't "work" with anyone at all, and let the lawyers handle EVERYTHING. That's just not normal IMO and people can once again blame everything on the decisions the LAWYERS, etc. made but when it is convenient, the Ramseys were their "own people"

They wrote a book and went to the media several times against their attorneys' advice so to say that they listened to their attorneys for the important part of the crime; the MOST important part of the crime, it doesn't wash.

Self admittedly, their lawyers weren't hired to give them advice and speak for them to HELP the investigation. Their lawyers were hired specifically to keep them out of prison, which they did

When your child dies in such a horrific fashion, and murdered under your own nose, in your own home, while you are there you DO WHATEVER IT TAKES. They CHOSE not to and they CHOSE not to. I'm sure the attorneys agreed with that decision but didn't make it FOR them

Since: Sep 11

Alberton, South Africa

#674 Sep 6, 2013
Here's an interesting article which explains why the Ramseys lawyered up in the first place:

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/09101997bynumabc...

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#675 Sep 6, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
They didn't "work" with anyone at all, and let the lawyers handle EVERYTHING. That's just not normal IMO and people can once again blame everything on the decisions the LAWYERS, etc. made but when it is convenient, the Ramseys were their "own people"
They wrote a book and went to the media several times against their attorneys' advice so to say that they listened to their attorneys for the important part of the crime; the MOST important part of the crime, it doesn't wash.
Self admittedly, their lawyers weren't hired to give them advice and speak for them to HELP the investigation. Their lawyers were hired specifically to keep them out of prison, which they did
When your child dies in such a horrific fashion, and murdered under your own nose, in your own home, while you are there you DO WHATEVER IT TAKES. They CHOSE not to and they CHOSE not to. I'm sure the attorneys agreed with that decision but didn't make it FOR them
I meant to add that you may be right about working through their attorneys as it is my belief that the attorney/s were called way before the police, so you may be right

They called their attorney/s IMO and then their friends to muddy the crime scene and ruin any chances of having to be alone with the police individually or together

The police made their share of mistakes and IMO, the police were TOO respectful of the Ramseys, given their status in the community

That's why this crime is still unsolved

All my opinion

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#676 Sep 6, 2013
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
When does wealth and sophistication trump a parent's natural desire to cooperate with authorities in an effort to find the "monster" who killed their child?
I hope that is a rhetorical question LOL

If it isn't, let me answer that for you:

When you have something to hide and can afford to hide it!!!!!!

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#677 Sep 6, 2013
That is such a Pollyanna response, LOL!!!
Lynette 22 wrote:
<quoted text> One can't help but wonder how respectful the police would have been during those interviews had the Ramseys' attorneys not been present? But that's not the point. The first and foremost duty of the police was not to be "nice" to the family, but to show respect and concern for the VICTIM by taking control of the situation and behaving in the professional and competent manner every citizen has the right to expect of them, thereby automatically showing consideration for the family by inspiring their trust and confidence which in turn would have ensured their full cooperation. One of the most foolish things the BPD ever did was to alienate their main suspects, who therefore naturally didn't trust them but placed their trust in their attorneys instead.
The "mistakes" of the police went way beyond merely not sealing off the house to friends. Their first mess-up was in sending a patrol car to the house in full view of the neighbourhood when they should have known a kidnapper always warns the family not to inform the authorities. They should have brought tracker dogs in and sent everyone else away. Upon discovery of the body, they should have immediately taken both Ramseys down to the police station to be questioned separately. Had they done this from the outset, none of what followed would ever have happened and the Ramseys would have been either arrested or cleared instead of remaining forever under suspicion. If I were in their shoes, I'd feel so bitter towards the police, I, too, would have no interest in speaking with them years later. It's quite evident they don't have what it takes to solve this crime anyway nor do they appear to care.
I don't believe for a moment that Patsy's intention in phoning their friends was to "muddy up" the crime scene. Had that been the case, she'd have phoned them BEFORE calling the police, thereby ensuring the crime scene was well and truly contaminated before the police arrived.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#678 Sep 6, 2013
DrSeussMd wrote:
That is such a Pollyanna response, LOL!!!
<quoted text>
LOL Seuss

Pollyanna was fictional too
Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#679 Sep 6, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree with several aspects of Douglas’ assessment of this crime, too; ‘though, probably not in the same way as you. However, I think that what he says about the Ramseys being “used to working through attorneys and other professionals” rings true. I thought you might agree because this is consistent with your belief that the Ramseys called their attorneys before they called 911 that morning.
I can’t disagree with you on this,“If you are not a guilty party, you do whatever it takes to clear your name...” But,“whatever it takes” means just that “whatever it takes” and if it takes “sidestepping BPD” and working with the DA’s office, Smit, private investigators, etc then that’s what it takes. IOWs,“whatever it takes” does not necessarily mean working with BPD as BPD, or you, or I, or anyone else might expect or wish.
I think the Ramseys could have handled things differently, and I think they might have except instead they chose to, for the most part, do as their lawyers asked.
...
AK
But why alienate the BPD? Why not cooperate with both the police officers and private investigators, if you are fortunate enough to have that option? Two forces are better than one.
Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#680 Sep 6, 2013
DrSeussMd wrote:
Not only do I disagree about the wealthy and sophisticated label you have placed on them, but they were so newly "rich" that the ink wasn't dry on the money yet.
There is such a difference with people who have newly acquired money, and how they act, and the Ramseys flaunted that difference. Whereas "old money" people probably do use their attorneys for everything, the Ramseys weren't "used" to working through attorneys. If they had been they wouldn't have had to go out and "HIRE" attorneys, nor would they "HIRE" attorneys for everyone in their family including John's ex-wife. The representation of every member of the Ramsey clan would have been seamless if they were "used" to working through attorneys. We never would have heard that "John" hired all these people - they would have just merely been represented by counsel.
<quoted text>
Exactly. The Ramseys were not born to money or position.

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