Large Panties
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Since: May 10

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#1 Oct 11, 2010
Could someone please clarify the panties story for me? I heard that an unopened package was found in Patsy's drawer but I also heard that an opened package was found in Patsy's drawer and, on top of that, I also heard that the large panties were in JonBenet's bathroom! Which is correct?

Since: Apr 10

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#2 Oct 11, 2010
Find a copy of the LE interview done in Atlanta with Patsy, in 2000. Use your "find" function to get to the section on the panties, bought by Patsy at Bloomingdale's a short time before the murder.

Read that interview and make up your own mind. But keep in mind, as you read Patsy change her story and Lin Wood do his best to cue her while interrupting her responses, that a mere 2 years later, Lin Wood turned in a package of size 12-14 Bloomies the Ramseys allegedly found in their packing boxes from the house when they moved from Boulder. I don't know who did the packing at that house, except that a moving company was involved, of course. Others may remember.

Jams said on her forum the package of the remaining six pairs of Bloomies was found by someone helping the Ramseys look for either the "missing Santa Bear" or the clothes the Ramseys wore the night of the murder...I think that story changed from time to time as well. The clothes were turned into the BPD about a year after the murder. The Santa Bear was an issue maybe resolved after the 1998 BDA interview with Patsy, when she didn't "remember" that Santa Bear on JB's bed in a crime scene photo.{She was good at creating red herrings.)

Who knows what the truth is with Team Ramsey. They don't set these things up to clarify anything, after all, only to obscure the truth.

What Wood turning over that package of Bloomies proved, though, was that Patsy lied to LE in her answers to the questions about the Bloomies. Why would she do that? Either that, or the Ramseys lied to LE when they turned over a package that wasn't the original package. It's one or the other.

I've heard the other Bloomies rumors, but never saw any evidence that they were true. Maybe they are. I once read an online blog from a woman who lived in Atlanta around the time Patsy did, and that woman was speaking to how her and her young adult girlfrieds wore the girl's Bloomies as a fashion trend at that time. Obviously they would have worn the larger sizes, like 12-14. There was no reference to this case, though; I was just googling trying to find the history of Bloomies and found that.

Whether that package of Bloomies, turned over TO D.A. LACY by Wood five years after the murder and some years after it was allegedly "found" (withholding evidence, obstructing a murder investigation, anyone?), was in fact the same package from which the Bloomies found on JB came, and whether that package was tested for fingerprints, DNA, etc., Lacy never held a press conference to share, did she? Ha.

Anyway, that's all I know, except that no way would a child put those on herself and try to wear them. There's a copy of the LE Atlanta interview at FFJ in the case library if you can't find it elsewhere. There are also two threads with "stickies" to keep them at the top of the public forum about those Bloomies, with a fascinating model, photos, and discussion, if you're interested.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#3 Oct 12, 2010
TY
Henri McPhee

Enniskillen, UK

#4 Oct 13, 2010
Future Legend wrote:
Could someone please clarify the panties story for me? I heard that an unopened package was found in Patsy's drawer but I also heard that an opened package was found in Patsy's drawer and, on top of that, I also heard that the large panties were in JonBenet's bathroom! Which is correct?
This business about the oversized panties is confusing. It has been discussed several times on this Topix forum in the past few years. If you type in panties into the Topix search box at the top of the page there is quite a lot of waffle about it from various Topix posters, if you are that interested.

My memory is going a bit about all the details. As far as I can remember Patsy purchased the packet of oversized panties in New York months before the murder. Patsy intended to give the oversized panties to a niece in Georgia at Christmas but JonBenet took a fancy to them. Patsy then put them in JonBenet's panty drawer which, I think, was in the bathroom attached to JonBenet's bedroom.

There is obvious controversy about which panties JonBenet was wearing that Christmas Day. Nobody knows for certain. She was found dead in the large panties.

The strange thing is that Patsy was told at the 2000 Atlanta police interview by lawyer Mike Kane that the Boulder cops searched high and low December 26th for any large panties and none were found. Then a few years after the murder the packet turned up in Atlanta and the story, I think, goes that Lin Wood handed that packet with the rest of the large panties to the Boulder authorities.

The other strange thing is that, I think, Ramsey prosecutor Bruce Levin at Atlanta 2000 asked Patsy some strange questions about whether Daphne White might have worn the large panties at some time.

My own theory is that the murderer substituted the new large panties, for forensic reasons, but he didn't appreciate that the new panties were large panties.

This is part of the Atlanta 2000 transcript about the matter:

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Did you ever see

10 if they fell down around her ankles or not?

11 THE WITNESS: No.

12 MS. HARMER: But you specifically

13 remember her putting on the bigger pair?

14 And I am not saying --

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in

16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I

17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all

18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can

19 help herself to whatever is in there.

20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not

21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to

22 Jenny.

23 THE WITNESS: Right.

24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in

25 JonBenet's bathroom?

0087

1 A. Right.

2 Q.(By Ms. Harmer) Was there - I'm

3 sorry. Do you recall making a decision then

4 not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet

5 express an interest in them; therefore, you

6 didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --

7 A. I can't say for sure. I mean, I

8 think I bought them with the intention of

9 sending them in a package of Christmas things

10 to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that

11 together, so I just put them in her, her

12 panty drawer. So they were free game.

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

#5 Oct 13, 2010
Henri, did you see koldkase's post?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#7 Oct 13, 2010
Correct me if I'm wrong - and I know you will. JonBenet was found wearing "Wednesday" panties, correct?

Question - Were the panties she originally had on that day also "Wednesday", or don't we know the answer to that?

If both pairs were "Wednesday", how would an intruder know that she would be wearing day-of-the-week panties so that he could bring a full package of day-of-the-week panties along with him so he could match the name of the day of the week? And, if he did bring a package along, why in the world would he have not purchased the proper size? And, if he did not bring them along with him and found them in JonBenet's drawer, why would he match the day and put large ones on her when her drawer was stocked with right-fitting ones?

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#8 Oct 13, 2010
...and if they were both "Wednesday", who would be so anal as to make sure they matched? Yep.
Henri McPhee

Enniskillen, UK

#10 Oct 14, 2010
Future Legend wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong - and I know you will. JonBenet was found wearing "Wednesday" panties, correct?
Question - Were the panties she originally had on that day also "Wednesday", or don't we know the answer to that?
If both pairs were "Wednesday", how would an intruder know that she would be wearing day-of-the-week panties so that he could bring a full package of day-of-the-week panties along with him so he could match the name of the day of the week? And, if he did bring a package along, why in the world would he have not purchased the proper size? And, if he did not bring them along with him and found them in JonBenet's drawer, why would he match the day and put large ones on her when her drawer was stocked with right-fitting ones?
That's an intelligent question from Future Legend. I must admit my head is spinning a bit about all this JonBenet panty business.

The large panties JonBenet was found dead in had Wednesday on them. Nobody knows for certain what panties JonBenet wore on Christmas Day because nobody, quite naturally, even Patsy, never made a forensic examination of the matter. Does anybody know for certain what underwear you wear, except perhaps a spouse?

It's a controversial thing to say but I think it's safe to assume she was wearing her normal sized panties on Christmas Day.

I have always thought the murderer went to JonBenet's panty drawer either before the murder, or at the time of the murder, and stole those new large Wednesday panties.

Patsy was questioned by the lawyers at Atlanta 2000. They wondered if the murderer had brought those new panties to the Ramsey house that night with him. Patsy couldn't say because she didn't know

It's an interesting idea that the murderer may have known JonBenet wore day of the week panties. Who would know such a thing but Fleet and Priscilla White?
Henri McPhee

Enniskillen, UK

#11 Oct 14, 2010
Jahazafat has been posting about this Jonbenet panty business since at least 2004. This is what she posted on this Topix forum about the matter in December 2008. I can't say I agree with this but everybody is entitled to their opinion:

"Find the original owner of the size 12 undies and the DNA depositer is there for the picking.

This was a pair of panties that had Wednesday on them in a size 12. There was no Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday found from the set. All the other girl's panties found in the home were the size Jonbenet normally wore, 4-6.

This size that was too big came from outside the Ramsey home. The only witness to the purchase is Patsy. The only claim they were new was from Patsy. The DNA in it's original self was degraded which in essence dates it to before the death of JonBenet.

Would a child who wore a size 12-14 in girl's panties be sexually active? Possibily. Could a child who wore a size 12-14 be sexually assulted? Of course. Is it possible a male family member may have come in contact with the laundry? Yes.

The investigation, aware of these facts made efforts to check the friends of JonBenet. They however did not extend this to friends in Michigan or Atlanta. The dead child lived a fourth of the year in Michigan and due to financial or intellectual constraints only Boulder girls were checked. At that, it appears by 'checked' means having a cheek swabbed by a technician, not being questioned and asked if JonBenet wet her pants at their house and they loaned her a pair. Not being questioned if they ever owned such a set of underwear.

Yes, the friends of Burke Ramsey would have been equally as important in tracking down the bigger sized underwear but Burke was put in a cocoon and swaddled in duct tape."

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#13 Oct 14, 2010
Jayelles was the most prolific poster on the bloomies, jazz was mainly about dolls. In any event Henri, you could have included the 'rest of the story' where the Ramseys turned in the remainder of the package to BPD years later.
Henri McPhee wrote:
Jahazafat has been posting about this Jonbenet panty business since at least 2004. This is what she posted on this Topix forum about the matter in December 2008. I can't say I agree with this but everybody is entitled to their opinion:
"Find the original owner of the size 12 undies and the DNA depositer is there for the picking.
This was a pair of panties that had Wednesday on them in a size 12. There was no Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, or Sunday found from the set. All the other girl's panties found in the home were the size Jonbenet normally wore, 4-6.
This size that was too big came from outside the Ramsey home. The only witness to the purchase is Patsy. The only claim they were new was from Patsy. The DNA in it's original self was degraded which in essence dates it to before the death of JonBenet.
Would a child who wore a size 12-14 in girl's panties be sexually active? Possibily. Could a child who wore a size 12-14 be sexually assulted? Of course. Is it possible a male family member may have come in contact with the laundry? Yes.
The investigation, aware of these facts made efforts to check the friends of JonBenet. They however did not extend this to friends in Michigan or Atlanta. The dead child lived a fourth of the year in Michigan and due to financial or intellectual constraints only Boulder girls were checked. At that, it appears by 'checked' means having a cheek swabbed by a technician, not being questioned and asked if JonBenet wet her pants at their house and they loaned her a pair. Not being questioned if they ever owned such a set of underwear.
Yes, the friends of Burke Ramsey would have been equally as important in tracking down the bigger sized underwear but Burke was put in a cocoon and swaddled in duct tape."
pinker

Elkhorn, WI

#14 Oct 14, 2010
Yes, and because of my intimate knowledge of how they replaced the doll I believe it's very likely the package of underwear was replaced as well. Pasty said she opened them and put them in the drawer. In Atlanta they went on about accounting for every pair found in the home for JonBenet was a size 4-6. How can it then be they appeared all together to be presented to the DA? Why did the investigation spend thousands of dollars checking the DNA of JonBenet's playmates in Boulder but exclude those in Michigan or Atlanta? Why did they check girls at all if the DNA was male? Why did they exclude friends of Burke's when the size 12 is a more relative fit to his 9 or 10 year old friends?

I believe JonBenet had emotional issues from Patsy's abusive hair bleaching that lead to an inability to use the toilet in a normal fashion. Jonbenet wasn't about to sit there and please Patsy if Patsy caused her any pain at all while bleaching her hair on the bathroom. She wet her bed and her pants. She would have had underwear that was 'borrowed', brought into the home from many places; school, church, pageants, and friend's homes. It's because the family refused to participate and cooperate that the source was never found. JMO
Henri McPhee

Enniskillen, UK

#15 Oct 14, 2010
DrSeussMd wrote:
Jayelles was the most prolific poster on the bloomies, jazz was mainly about dolls. In any event Henri, you could have included the 'rest of the story' where the Ramseys turned in the remainder of the package to BPD years later.<quoted text>
I think Jayelles did some excellent research with regard to those large bloomies even though she is a Forums for Justice poster. It's another reason for me to doubt that JonBenet wore the large panties on Christmas Day.

The panties business is confusing. It doesn't help matters when Patsy said she couldn't remember if she purchased one or two packets in New York in November 1996.

I'm afraid i don't follow Jahazafat/Pinker's argument. I have always found it a mystery that lawyer Bruce Levin was asking Patsy whether Daphne White had worn those large panties. It makes me think the public have not been told something.

I can't find a lot of the police interviews on the internet now to find the quotes.

This is some background information from Miss Marple's website:

Oversized Panties

"JBR was found in a pair of size 12-14 panties not appropriate for her age; these were from a package of "day-of-the-week" panties that come 7 in a package.

Patsy Purchased Panties in November 1996. In her August 28, 2000 police interview, Patsy stated that she had purchased these panties for her niece, Jenny Davis (81:line 3).
Over-sized Underwear Placed in JBR Underwear Drawer. In the same interview, Bruce Levin asked: "Okay. What we are trying to understand is whether--we are trying to understand why she is wearing such a large pair of underpants. We are hoping you can help us if you have a recollection of it."

Patsy responded: "I am sure that I put the package of underwear in her bathroom, and she opened them and put them on" (83:lines 21-25; 84: lines 1-3).

In the same interview, Jane Harmer asked: "Do you recall making a decision then not to give them to Jenny or did JonBenet express an interest in them; therefore, you didn't give them to Jenny? How did that --" Patsy responded: "I can't say for sure. I mean, I think I bought them with the intention of sending them in a package of Christmas things to Atlanta. Obviously I didn't get that together, so I just put them in her, her panty drawer. So they were free game" (87:lines 3-12).

According to Internet poster jameson "The package was left in the house when the police finished their investigation. Ramsey investigators took posession (sic) of the package." Jameson also asserted: "The package was in her bedroom or bathroom - the police simply didn't understand how important it might be so left it."
According to Internet poster Bluecrab: "My understanding is that the 12/14's were kept in the bedroom in their original packaging and had not been opened until the night of the murder."

When Was Package Turned Over to Boulder Investigators? Jameson was not specific about timing, but claimed: "The package and panties, IMO, needed to be processed as evidence. I know it wasn't done when the BPD had the case." It was reported in mid-2003 that "investigators never even asked to see the other panties in the matching set her mother bought her (though the DA's office now has them, Wood says)." (Clay Evans, "We're Failing JonBenet" Boulder Daily Camera, June 15, 2003). It is not clear at what point in time this transfer to BPD would have been made, but presumably was sometime after the Boulder DA took over the case in late 2002 and June 2003.

Though she would not reveal her source, jameson further stated: "I didn't get that information from Patsy - I got it from someone who was in possession of the package of panties - and I assure you it was not John or Patsy."
Henri McPhee

Enniskillen, UK

#16 Oct 14, 2010
More from Miss Marple's website:

National Enquirer Account. Readers should take the following with a grain of salt, but this is the account of the panties provided by National Enquirer:

"On the shopping spree, which included a visit to Bloomingdales', Patsy paid $24.99 for a size 12/14 set of "bloomies" panties with the days of the week on them for her niece, a girl older than JonBenét, according to a source. The seven-panty set was identical to one JonBenét had -- only hers were a size 6. When the gals returned to Boulder from their trip, Patsy was going to send the larger panties to her niece, but JonBenét wanted to keep them, an insider confides. "JonBenét and her mom were in her room when Patsy pulled out the pack of size 12 panties," says the insider. "An excited JonBenét told her mom,'Don't send those to Aunt Polly -- I want them, I want them!' "When Patsy answered,'But they are much too big for you,' JonBenét said,'That's OK, Mom, I'll grow into them.' So Patsy opened the packages and put them into a bathroom drawer next to JonBenét's identical set of size 6 panties." Patsy kept the panties in a drawer in the bathroom -- instead of in the bedroom for convenience sake, says a source, because JonBenét often had to be washed and changed at night due to her frequent bed-wetting. But the source insists that JonBenét had never worn the larger briefs until the night of her death!"

Linda Hoffman-Pugh Account. "These weren't naughty children. They dressed themselves, and Patsy did JonBenet's hair. All her daughter's clothes were organized in drawers. Turtlenecks in one drawer, pants in another, nighties and panties in one, socks in another. Dates on all their underclothes (Emphasis added; this material is an excerpt from Schiller 1999 available online). Although this account does not indicate the actual size of JBR's dated underwear, nor does it indicate they were Bloomie's, this account from the Ramsey housekeeper is consistent with the National Enquirer account of there being a smaller size set of day-of-the-week Bloomies in the appropriate size for JBR.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#17 Oct 14, 2010
I tried to post the following but it is not showing up. I’ll try again. I’m just “thinking out loud” so bear with me.
Maybe Daphne owned day-of-the-week panties and JonBenet wet herself at the party so Daphne lent her a pair of hers. This is why JonBenet did not feel pretty: she was wet and wearing panties that were way too big. Maybe Daphne’s parties were in the laundry and she dug them out and gave them to JonBenet because they said Wednesday on them like JonBenet’s original ones did. If so, the male DNA might not belong to the murderer at all.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#18 Oct 14, 2010
Was Fleet Sr.'s DNA tested?
Biz

Brandon, FL

#19 Oct 14, 2010
Future Legend wrote:
Was Fleet Sr.'s DNA tested?
Yes, FW's DNA was tested.
Your theory about the DNA being from a pair of lended panties from Daphne is ruled out because the same DNA matches the thermal pants (touch DNA) The fingernail DNA has the same markers as well but it was not a full profile. There's no doubt the DNA belongs to the killer.
Henri McPhee

Enniskillen, UK

#22 Oct 15, 2010
Future Legend wrote:
I tried to post the following but it is not showing up. I’ll try again. I’m just “thinking out loud” so bear with me.
Maybe Daphne owned day-of-the-week panties and JonBenet wet herself at the party so Daphne lent her a pair of hers. This is why JonBenet did not feel pretty: she was wet and wearing panties that were way too big. Maybe Daphne’s parties were in the laundry and she dug them out and gave them to JonBenet because they said Wednesday on them like JonBenet’s original ones did. If so, the male DNA might not belong to the murderer at all.
That's an interesting theory from Future Legend. I hope I haven't confused everybody. It is confusing.

The only reason I mentioned Daphne White with regard to the panties is because Ramsey prosecutor Bruce Levin at Atlanta 2000 distinctly asked Patsy if Daphne White had worn JonBenet's panties at any time. I can't find the reference to that at the moment but I could if I was pressed. I have never understood why Bruce Levin said that. I wish he would explain. It makes me thinks he has information which may be Ramsey case confidential police information.

I agree with Biz that the male Ramsey case DNA is on two separate items of clothing and that DNA has similarities to the JonBenet fingernail DNA. That put paid to the Dr. Henry Lee Asian sneeze DNA theory. I have never been sure like Lin Wood that the DNA comes from the killer. Surely it could come from a helper or an associate? Lou Smit used to say that the man with that Ramsey case DNA had some explaining to do.

I think it's most unlikely that Fleet Sr. had his DNA tested. He was never suspected except by Nancy Krebs and she was about the only person who did suspect him. Surely in a complete investigation Fleet Sr's alibi and DNA should have been checked out? There are others like Joe Barnhill Jr who have aroused suspicions in the past. There used to be a rumor that some of the Ramsey case DNA markers resembled Joe Barnhill Sr's DNA.

It could be that the Wednesday on the panties is not relevant. Patsy never seemed very definite or sure that JonBenet used day of the week panties. Or it could be that JonBenet did have a day of the week panty routine which Fleet and Priscilla White might have known about and Patsy didn't know about.

This is a quote about this panty day of the week matter from Miss Marple's website:

"Size 4-6 Panties
Did JBR Own Smaller Day-of-the-Week Bloomies?
In her June 24, 1998 interview, Patsy was asked the following by Thomas Haney: "Did JonBenet have panties with the names of each day of the week on it?" PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum. THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And did she wear those according to the day of the week or was it just kind of -- PATSY RAMSEY: Just whatever. THOMAS HANEY: Did she know, pay much attention to what day of the week it was? PATSY RAMSEY: No. THOMAS HANEY: So whatever would come out of the drawer? PATSY RAMSEY:(Nodding). Transcript (236:16-25; 237:1-4). Note that no indication was given whether these were Bloomies or some other brand."
VipervenomM

Mcallen, TX

#23 Oct 15, 2010
tHANKS FOR THE info .Henri *McPhee it was also Stated in one of the books Pr. was some sort of a perfectionist as you know some posters even care about how things are spelled well their is NO-WAy Pr. would put 7 sizes of undergarment that "big" on her as I Mentioned someone had Sheer hate an was a person mocking the chid making fun of her.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#25 Jul 17, 2011
Bumping this up for REAL posters. Virtually ALL the topics trumped up by Team Scamsey shills have been posted on here and every where else IN DEPTH.

Since: Jul 08

Here, In Reality

#26 Jul 21, 2011
candy wrote:
Bumping this up for REAL posters. Virtually ALL the topics trumped up by Team Scamsey shills have been posted on here and every where else IN DEPTH.
Candy, refresh my memory, please.

Were the Size 6 panties she wore ever found? Do they know which Days of the week were in the laundry & which were still in her drawer?

How do we KNOW she was wearing sz. 6 Wednesday at the party?

Patsy says, JB didn't really pay close attention to which day it was.

How many of the size 12s were eventually found?

What 'kidnapper' would care what DAY OF THE WEEK it was if his victim is already dead? He's probably going to be killed by that small foreign faction for botching the job.

Day of the Week Panties... under a pair of thermal bottoms? WHO would care that this child is dressed properly? And with a 'clue' about WHICH DAY of the week she died?

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