Carnes decision thread 3 - the ransom...

Carnes decision thread 3 - the ransom note

Posted in the JonBenet Ramsey Forum

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whodatninja

Pleasant Hill, CA

#11 Jan 26, 2014
The handwriting scale goes to nine. Lou Smit was confused and the attorneys didn't set him straight.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#13 Jan 26, 2014
justwatching wrote:
sorry,but in this case they always used the 1 to 5 scale. PLease do look in the archives, the interviews of DA Alex Hunter, Lou Smit, look at the TV interviews and you will find that was the scale always used here. I admit, it used to confuse me too, why not 1 to 10? But in Chief Beckner's deposition, he also used 1 to 5. Don't take my word for it, all this can be verified if you just look up old posts, interviews, depositions.
I did more than that. I looked at Smit's testimony. Forget the scale because Hunter got it wrong and they all followed suit. Here are the examiners' conclusions in English:

For the police:
Ubowski, indications did write
Speckin, no conclusion
Alford, no conclusion +
Dusick, probably did not write

For Ramseys:
Cunningham, no conclusion
Ryle, highly probable did not write

So you see that most of the examiners were "no conclusion." On a nine scale, 5 would be no conclusion. That fits with Smit saying that the collective opinion of the examiners was "inconclusive or below" or 4.5.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#14 Jan 26, 2014
The relevant part of Smit's testimony:

"Q. Would you go through -- and I think your presentation picks up on this. Would you go through and give us the benefit now of the conclusions that you were made aware of that each of these handwriting experts reached with respect to Patsy Ramsey's handwriting analysis?

A [by Smit]. Yes. I am referring to the slide. Chet Ubowski, his results -- and this is a very brief rendition of his results. There were indications that Patsy Ramsey wrote the note. There is evidence which indicates that the ransom note may have been written by Patsy Ramsey. But the evidence falls short of that necessary to support a definite conclusion.

Leonard Speckin, he is a police expert, private forensic document analyst. "Lack of indications. I can find no evidence that Patsy Ramsey disguised her handwriting exemplars. When I compared the handprinting habits of Patsy Ramsey with those presented in the questioned ransom note, there exists agreement to the extent that some of her individual letter formations and letter combinations do appear in the ransom note. When this agreement is weighed against the number, type, and consistencies of the differences present, I am unable to identify Patsy Ramsey as the author of the questioned ransom note with any degree of certainty. I am, however, unable to eliminate her as the author."

Edwin Alford, Jr. "Lack of indications. Examination of the questioned handwriting and comparison of the handwriting specimens submitted has failed to provide a basis for identifying Patsy Ramsey as the writer of the letter."

Lloyd Cunningham, Ramsey expert, he is the one that certified Chet Ubowski. "Lack of indications," that he cannot identify or eliminate Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note. And he has spent 20 hours examining the samples and documents and has found that there were no significant individual characteristics but much significant difference between Patsy's writing and the note.

Richard Dusick, he is the analyst for the United States Secret Service. These are the results of his specific report. "Lack of indications. A study and comparison of the questioned and specimen writings submitted has resulted in the conclusion that there is no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the ransom note." Howard Ryle, the former CBI examiner, "probably not." His opinion in this case is between "probably not" and "elimination," elimination as Patsy Ramsey as the author of the ransom note. He believes that the writer could be identified if historical writings were found.

The results, the general consensus is inconclusive and below that Patsy wrote the note."
Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#15 Jan 26, 2014
Okay. But can you please explain why any of these characters would have felt it necessary to write a ransom note? What purpose did they envision it serving? It does not fit with any theory of an intruder.

So we can disagree upon the author, as you wish, but a reasonable explanation for its existence does not itself exist.

Since: Mar 08

Location hidden

#16 Jan 26, 2014
Just Wondering wrote:
Okay. But can you please explain why any of these characters would have felt it necessary to write a ransom note? What purpose did they envision it serving? It does not fit with any theory of an intruder.
So we can disagree upon the author, as you wish, but a reasonable explanation for its existence does not itself exist.
I think Smit said that it was supposed to be a kidnapping, but the intruder got excited, couldn't wait and killed her. If there's something more plausible, I'm sure jameson will tell us.

In my opinion, if Patsy wrote it, it was intended to make cops think there was an intruder, but if that failed, the cops would, she hoped, think John wrote it.
docG

Pittsburgh, PA

#17 Jan 27, 2014
Jameson, a detailed review of the various "experts" who managed to convince themselves Patsy wrote the note can be found on my blog, beginning here: http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/10/t...

This should interest you as it raises some serious questions regarding their competence. I myself see NO resemblance between Patsy's hand (either left or right) and that of the note writer.
Joy

Miami, FL

#19 Jan 27, 2014
docG wrote:
Jameson, a detailed review of the various "experts" who managed to convince themselves Patsy wrote the note can be found on my blog, beginning here: http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/10/t...
This should interest you at JonBenet Investigation at Facebook and it raises some serious questions regarding their competence. I myself see NO resemblance between Patsy's hand (either left or right) and that of the note writer.
There were many experts.
Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#20 Jan 27, 2014
I think the author was Patsy; docG thinks it was John. But can anyone offer a reason why an intruder would feel the need to write and leave this ransom note if his interest was in molesting/killing the child? And why would a kidnapper leave the note and the body behind when his objective was to secure a ransom?

Lou's explanation of a kidnapper turned pedophile/murderer just doesn't seem plausible to me. If the kidnapper/pedophile/murderer had intended to use a stun gun to immobilize the child, would a dead child have presented any more of a problem than an incapacitated one? Taking the body would have prevented any of the intruder's DNA from being collected and he would still be able to collect his ransom. So I disagree with Lou's theory.

Off topic slightly--did anyone find it odd that John just happened to pick up the very pad the ransom note was written on to give to the police for Patsy's handwriting sample? I suppose it was within sight and that was the reason he grabbed it, but had he been trying to point the police toward his wife, he could not have come up with a better scheme.
Bung

Citrus Heights, CA

#21 Dec 30, 2016
Maybe it was Patsy who wrote it and John dictated it to her.
Henri McPhee

Bristol, UK

#22 Dec 31, 2016
Bung wrote:
Maybe it was Patsy who wrote it and John dictated it to her.
Maybe the moon is made of green cheese and the Titanic never sank and the Beatles never existed. Have you never heard of scientific fact?
One-who-hates-Ca rnes

Mankato, MN

#23 Dec 31, 2016
jameson245 wrote:
Carnes: II. The Ransom Note

The Ransom Note is believed by all parties to have been written by the killer or an accomplice of the killer and remains an extremely important clue in the murder investigation.(PSDMF ¶ 4.) Plaintiff claims that the single best piece of evidence that ties Mrs. Ramsey to the crime is the Ransom Note.(Id.) Mrs. Ramsey, however, flatly denies that she had anything to do with the note's creation.(SMF II189; PSMF ¶ 89.) Due to the pivotal role the Ransom Note plays in plaintiffs' allegation that Mrs. Ramsey was the murderer of her child, the facts surrounding the Ransom Note will be discussed in detail.

The Ransom Note was quite long, and in fact is one of the longest ransom notes in the history of kidnapping cases.(PSDMF ¶ 7.) This fact is important because the longer a document is, the harder it becomes to disguise one's handwriting.(PSDMF ¶ 9.) The Ransom Note is addressed to Mr. Ramsey alone and purports to be written by a group of individuals who "represent a small foreign faction" that have kidnapped defendants' daughter and seek $118,000 for her safe return. The Ransom Note was signed "S.B.T.C.", after the salutation "Victory!".(Ransom Note at 3.) The author of the Ransom Note instructs Mr. Ramsey to "[u]se that good southern [sic] common sense," an obviously inaccurate reference as Mr. Ramsey was originally from Michigan, whereas Mrs. Ramsey was originally from West Virginia.(Id.)


In addition, the Ransom Note was drafted on paper taken from the middle of a pad of paper located at defendants' home and with a pen found at defendants' home. Additional sheets were missing from the pad and were never located at defendants' home. The pen used to write the Ransom Note was sourced to defendants' home and found placed back in its normal place by the phone. Finally, there was another page in the pad that had written on it "Mr. and Mrs. I," which many believe to have been an early "false start" of the Ransom Note.(PSDMF ¶ 51.)

Both parties agree that the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis, primarily due to the type of writing instrument, a broad fiber-tip pen, used to draft the note. This type of pen distorts and masks fine details to an extent not achievable by other types of pen, as for example a ball point pen.(SMF ¶ 243; PSMF ¶ 243.) In addition, the stroke direction used to construct certain letters and subtle handprinting features, such as hesitations and pen lifts, are difficult to ascertain because of the pen used in the Ransom Note.(SMF ¶ 244; PSMF ¶ 244.) Finally, the handwriting in the original Ransom Note showed consistency throughout the entire writing.(SMF ¶ 246; PSMF ¶ 246.) One of the most common means to disguise one's handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text. In sum, for the above reasons, the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis. Nevertheless, the writer does not appear to have been trying to disguise his or her handwriting.

jameson's comment - nothing new here, hard to disguise 3 pages and those close to the investigation think historical examples of our killer's writing will match.
Carnes:

"One of the most common means to disguise one's handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text. In sum, for the above reasons, the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis. Nevertheless, the writer does not appear to have been trying to disguise his or her handwriting."

Fuhk Carnes, that piece of sh*t. One can look at the writing in the ransom note and see there is no consistency in the writing. The letter "d" is written 22 different ways. The other letters show the same INCONSISTENCY. The writing on page one is completely different from the writing on page three.

Carnes is a piece of dog sh*t.
Henri McPhee

Bristol, UK

#24 Dec 31, 2016
One-who-hates-Carnes wrote:
<quoted text>

Carnes:

"One of the most common means to disguise one's handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text. In sum, for the above reasons, the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis. Nevertheless, the writer does not appear to have been trying to disguise his or her handwriting."

Fuhk Carnes, that piece of sh*t. One can look at the writing in the ransom note and see there is no consistency in the writing. The letter "d" is written 22 different ways. The other letters show the same INCONSISTENCY. The writing on page one is completely different from the writing on page three.

Carnes is a piece of dog sh*t.
You are not a qualified forensic document examiner and you can't tell with absolute certainty whether Patsy or anybody else wrote the ransom note, unless perhaps you wrote it yourself. Fleet White seemed to have a surprising knowledge of the contents of the note, though he only ever had seen a quick glance of it at the crime scene. Mrs Ramsey's written letter "u" consistently differs from the way the same letter is written throughout the ransom note (SMF 248) Carnes ruling.

More from the Carnes ruling about the ransom note:

"Both parties agree that the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis, primarily due to the type of writing instrument, a broad fiber-tip pen, used to draft the note. This type of pen distorts and masks fine details to an extent not achievable by other types of pen, as for example a ball point pen.(SMF 243; PSMF 243.) In addition, the stroke direction used to construct certain letters and subtle handprinting features, such as hesitations and pen lifts, are difficult to ascertain because of the pen used in the Ransom Note.(SMF 244; PSMF 244.) Finally, the handwriting in the original Ransom Note showed consistency throughout the entire writing.(SMF 246; PSMF 246.) One of the most common means to disguise one's handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text. In sum, for the above reasons, the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis. Nevertheless, the writer does not appear to have been trying to disguise his or her handwriting."
melkam

Ethiopia

#25 Dec 31, 2016
Am really sorry for this family whatever whoever is the cause specially pasty is z one who makes to have broken heart. When I think her life really am so sorry "Tasaznegnalech"
One-who-solved-t he-case

Mankato, MN

#26 Dec 31, 2016
Henri McPhee wrote:
<quoted text>

You are not a qualified forensic document examiner and you can't tell with absolute certainty whether Patsy or anybody else wrote the ransom note, unless perhaps you wrote it yourself. Fleet White seemed to have a surprising knowledge of the contents of the note, though he only ever had seen a quick glance of it at the crime scene. Mrs Ramsey's written letter "u" consistently differs from the way the same letter is written throughout the ransom note (SMF 248) Carnes ruling.

More from the Carnes ruling about the ransom note:

"Both parties agree that the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis, primarily due to the type of writing instrument, a broad fiber-tip pen, used to draft the note. This type of pen distorts and masks fine details to an extent not achievable by other types of pen, as for example a ball point pen.(SMF ¶ 243; PSMF ¶ 243.) In addition, the stroke direction used to construct certain letters and subtle handprinting features, such as hesitations and pen lifts, are difficult to ascertain because of the pen used in the Ransom Note.(SMF ¶ 244; PSMF ¶ 244.) Finally, the handwriting in the original Ransom Note showed consistency throughout the entire writing.(SMF ¶ 246; PSMF ¶ 246.) One of the most common means to disguise one's handwriting is to attempt to make the script erratic throughout the text. In sum, for the above reasons, the Ransom Note is not an ideal specimen for handwriting analysis. Nevertheless, the writer does not appear to have been trying to disguise his or her handwriting."
I'm not an idiot, but apparently you are. When more than a dozen "experts" conclude the writer of the ransom not shares UNIQUE writing characteristics with Patsy Ramsey (which is why she could not be eliminated as the writer), it means something. Several experts concluded Patsy must have written it.

Nevertheless, I checked it out myself. I studied the ransom note and compared it to a sample of Patsy's writing pre-Christmas Day 1996. I found letters in the note that were formed is a UNIQUE way that matched the way Patsy UNIQUELY wrote those individual letters. One does not need to be an "expert" to spot an EXACT match.

The letter "r" in the ransom note repeatedly displays an overextended upper mark. This same characteristic can be seen repeatedly in Patsy's writing. The letter "s" in the ransom note repeatedly displays a "squished down" upper half. This same characteristic can be seen repeatedly in Patsy's writing. There are many more examples.

The spacing between words in the ransom note match Patsy's style. She put an extra space between each word. She also put an extra space between the end of a sentence and the beginning word of the next sentence.

BTW, you don't know what my training and experience consist of, so you really can't say, can you? Only a retarded idiot would think he could.


There was an obvious attempt to disguise the handwriting. That's why the individual letters are not consistent. The letter "d" is made 27 different ways. The same with most of the other letters.
Henri McPhee

Bristol, UK

#27 Jan 1, 2017
One-who-solved-the-case wrote:
<quoted text>

I'm not an idiot, but apparently you are. When more than a dozen "experts" conclude the writer of the ransom not shares UNIQUE writing characteristics with Patsy Ramsey (which is why she could not be eliminated as the writer), it means something. Several experts concluded Patsy must have written it.

Nevertheless, I checked it out myself. I studied the ransom note and compared it to a sample of Patsy's writing pre-Christmas Day 1996. I found letters in the note that were formed is a UNIQUE way that matched the way Patsy UNIQUELY wrote those individual letters. One does not need to be an "expert" to spot an EXACT match.

The letter "r" in the ransom note repeatedly displays an overextended upper mark. This same characteristic can be seen repeatedly in Patsy's writing. The letter "s" in the ransom note repeatedly displays a "squished down" upper half. This same characteristic can be seen repeatedly in Patsy's writing. There are many more examples.

The spacing between words in the ransom note match Patsy's style. She put an extra space between each word. She also put an extra space between the end of a sentence and the beginning word of the next sentence.

BTW, you don't know what my training and experience consist of, so you really can't say, can you? Only a retarded idiot would think he could.


There was an obvious attempt to disguise the handwriting. That's why the individual letters are not consistent. The letter "d" is made 27 different ways. The same with most of the other letters.
Hey Jimmy, that is not absolutely correct. This is what the reddit forum thinks about the matter:

"NOT Fact. Experts disagree on this. According to Steve Thomas under deposition, there were a number of suspects but Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated as the writer AND who was positively known to be in the house that night. This suggests that there were other (non-family) suspects who could not be eliminated as the writer. We do not know who they were from any reliable source."
One-who-solved-t he-case

Mankato, MN

#28 Jan 1, 2017
Henri McPhee wrote:
<quoted text>

Hey Jimmy, that is not absolutely correct. This is what the reddit forum thinks about the matter:

"NOT Fact. Experts disagree on this. According to Steve Thomas under deposition, there were a number of suspects but Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated as the writer AND who was positively known to be in the house that night. This suggests that there were other (non-family) suspects who could not be eliminated as the writer. We do not know who they were from any reliable source."
Hey, sh*t-for-brains. Thomas didn't say "There were a number of suspects who could not be eliminated as the writer but Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated as the writer AND who was positively known to be in the house that night."

He said, "There were a number of suspects (generally) but Patsy was the only one who could not be eliminated as the writer AND who was positively known to be in the house that night.

Q. And how many of the 73 were
8 eliminated as the author of the note based on
9 the handwriting examples or exemplars?
10 A.(Steve Thomas) I don't know.
11 Q. Not many, true?
12 A. I know that the majority fell into
13 the no evidence to indicate category.
14 Q. But they couldn't go to
15 elimination, could they?
16 A. Again, I don't know.
17 Q. Didn't you talk with the
18 handwriting expert, sir?
19 A. Are we talking about the CBI
20 expert?
21 Q. Any of them. There were four
22 with respect to Patsy Ramsey, weren't there?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. How many other of the 73 had four
25 different examiners look at their handwriting?

103

1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Do you know of any? Can you name
3 one?
4 A. I'm trying to recall with those
5 three additional examiners if other suspects'
6 historical writings or exemplars were provided
7 to them. As I sit here today, I don't know.
8 But if any, the number would be few.

He said, "...IF ANY...!"

You fuhking retard. Quit trying to mislead people!
Henri McPhee

Bristol, UK

#31 Jan 2, 2017
This is a bit from the internet about the ransom note::

"Regardless, in 2015 Mark Beckner, the former Boulder, Colorado police chief recalled that "the handwriting experts noted several strange observations" in analyzing Patsy, though none of those observations were ever conclusive. Journalists believed to have recognized similarities between Patsy's handwriting samples and the handwriting of the ransom note writer, but no experts ever confirmed this overlap. If there is a potential key piece that solves this decades-long mystery, handwriting is likely not be the most reliable form of proof."
One-who-solved-t he-case

Mankato, MN

#32 Jan 2, 2017
Henri McPhee wrote:
This is a bit from the internet about the ransom note::

"Regardless, in 2015 Mark Beckner, the former Boulder, Colorado police chief recalled that "the handwriting experts noted several strange observations" in analyzing Patsy, though none of those observations were ever conclusive. Journalists believed to have recognized similarities between Patsy's handwriting samples and the handwriting of the ransom note writer, but no experts ever confirmed this overlap. If there is a potential key piece that solves this decades-long mystery, handwriting is likely not be the most reliable form of proof."
Just because no "expert" is willing to confirm it, it doesn't mean she didn't write it. Just because no one proves the world is round, it doesn't make the world flat.

Patsy wrote the note, you retarded, ignorant moron. Quit misleading people. The ONLY explanation why Patsy's UNIQUE handwriting characteristics would ever appear in any piece of writing is that she wrote it. Now, go fuhk yourself.
One-who-solved-t he-case

Mankato, MN

#33 Jan 2, 2017
Henri McPhee wrote:
This is a bit from the internet about the ransom note::

"Regardless, in 2015 Mark Beckner, the former Boulder, Colorado police chief recalled that "the handwriting experts noted several strange observations" in analyzing Patsy, though none of those observations were ever conclusive. Journalists believed to have recognized similarities between Patsy's handwriting samples and the handwriting of the ransom note writer, but no experts ever confirmed this overlap. If there is a potential key piece that solves this decades-long mystery, handwriting is likely not be the most reliable form of proof."
By the way, you sh*t-encrusted c*co-sucking retard. Several experts HAVE concluded Patsy must have written the ransom note. Now, go eat some more sh*t.
Henri McPhee

Bristol, UK

#34 Jan 2, 2017
One-who-solved-the-case wrote:
<quoted text>

By the way, you sh*t-encrusted c*co-sucking retard. Several experts HAVE concluded Patsy must have written the ransom note. Now, go eat some more sh*t.
Hey dickhead. You seem to be a bit too familiar with the inner circle of suspects for my liking, like Judith Phillips and her shady lawyer husband Tom Miller, who defrauded his clients out of many thousands and once had a fight with Fleet White's pal Tal Jones (Spade).

I agree several experts concluded Patsy wrote the ransom note but those experts never saw the original ransom note, or even the original exemplars. They could have been forged by the shady lawyer Tom Miller. Have you not heard of the rules of evidence and procedure?

I wrote a bit about this matter on this forum in 2007:

"I dont like the way Judith Phillips supported Fleet White in Fleets anti-Ramsey letter writing. She put her signature in support of some of those letters, just like Santa Bill McReynolds did.

Judith Phillips said to Mame in one Boulder radio interview that Patsy may have had a secret boyfriend who Patsy was visiting on the night of JonBenets murder. That was a lot of bull.

The Boulder journalist, and TV presenter, Jann Scott has said publicly that Tom Miller and Judith Phillips were suspected of cocaine importation from Peru, by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.

Judith Phillips went on holiday with the Ramseys to California with her former husband Mel. I just dont like the way Judith turned on the Ramseys after JonBenets murder. I think it may be something to do with Judiths relationship with Tom Miller.

Tom Miller was involved in the Chris Wolf libel case a few years ago in that he supplied the copies of Patsys handwriting exemplars to Darnays handwriting experts Wong and Epstein. I honestly think Tom Miller may have forged or altered those Patsy exemplar copies in order to resemble Patsys handwriting.

I have always had the feeling that the former Ramsey lawyers Haddons had it in for Tom Miller, for one reason or another. The public may not be aware of the full story behind that. The fact is it led to the Colorado v Tom Miller trial in 2001 over bribery and corruption with regard to the ransom note. I accept that Tom Miller was found not guilty with regard to that."

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