The Ligatures

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#182 Nov 9, 2013
More likely it was an old piece of used cord used entirely to prevent easy identifcation or association wuth this utterly maniac family that had 2 kids pooping around the house and not in the toidy.

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#183 Nov 9, 2013
moonjack wrote:
More likely it was an old piece of used cord used entirely to prevent easy identifcation or association wuth this utterly maniac family that had 2 kids pooping around the house and not in the toidy.
..."an old piece of used cord" belonging to the Ramseys? Yet, the only TDNA collected from the cord belongs to an unknown male?

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

#184 Nov 9, 2013
moonjack wrote:
More likely it was an old piece of used cord used entirely to prevent easy identifcation or association wuth this utterly maniac family that had 2 kids pooping around the house and not in the toidy.
It easily could have been an old used remnant piece of rope from the garage with any one of hundreds of possible sources. Likewise it could have been left by a laborer during the many phases of construction done on the home, a friend of one of the kids could have left it, and it isn't beyond the realm of possibility, that it was in the home/garage when the home was purchased.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#185 Nov 9, 2013
Mama2JML wrote:
<quoted text>
..."an old piece of used cord" belonging to the Ramseys? Yet, the only TDNA collected from the cord belongs to an unknown male?
John wore gloves when working with the ropes.

There should be a complete profile, a complete shedded skin cell - gabs of DNA from the strangler, there isn't anything but common garden variety TDN - foreign incomplete old degraded crap that is everywhere people exist.

I'd look closely at the big painting the Ramseys were so eager to remove from the crime scene. Maybe the cord was used to hang that on the wall? A slef made painting seems like a funny thing to be worried about when you're asking your sister to get funeral clothes, at that they never did give it away, it was still in their posession years later...
BrotherMoon

Arvada, CO

#186 Nov 9, 2013
Patsy bought the duct tape and cord new in December.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#187 Nov 9, 2013
DrSeussMd wrote:
It seems everywhere I turn there is another source of what the good "doctor" said.
"Cyril Wecht, along with 4 other doctors concurred that the injury to hymen "dated .... Although JBR had 27 pediatrician visits between March 1993 and November..."
"Aug 21, 2006 - 20 posts - &#8206;3 authors
33 visits to the doctor in 3 yrs and multiple vaginal .... JonBenet and her half-sister, John Ramsey's her father too, are dead..."
"Walter A. Davis - 2004 - &#8206;Drama
The medical records of Dr. Beuf, the Ramsey's pediatrician, show that between the age of 3 and her death JonBenet made over twenty-five visits to the doctor's ..."
Granted I understand the authors thought they had the correct information, because it seems each book says something a little different from the next.
What I don't understand is how can he go over charts with Diana Sawyer, for example, that he said were stolen? Where were the charts really? His office or in a bank safety deposit box? Was the safety deposit box before or after they were stolen? These are just questions that plague me, but they don't go to the question at hand.
I have no idea if Dr Beuf ever had his records stolen, but I also don't know if he ever did any kind of exam on her. Surely he didn't do an invasive on on a child of 6. I do think he may be bought and paid for by the Ramseys though!
<quoted text>
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a safe deposit box in a bank VAULT got "broken into" without so much as a clue as to how anyone other than Dr. Beuf knew those medical records were in the box? There are only so many boxes in a bank vault; so who went into it during that period of time? Anyone? LE? Crickets?

How convenient for certain "records" to disappear, in case of a subpoena, isn't it?

My, how often the Ramsey's personal records disappeared: phone records coming up "blank" a year later; medical records given "an island of privacy"; bank vaults broken into....

And neither Dr. Beuf nor Patsy "remember" why on earth she called his office after 5 pm THREE TIMES IN ONE HOUR on Dec. 17th--even though her child, who had been repeatedly molested, was murdered only 9 days later.

The coincidences are never-ending in this case. And those who find them coincidences want to be fooled.

Since: May 11

AOL

#188 Nov 9, 2013
koldkase wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a safe deposit box in a bank VAULT got "broken into" without so much as a clue as to how anyone other than Dr. Beuf knew those medical records were in the box? There are only so many boxes in a bank vault; so who went into it during that period of time? Anyone? LE? Crickets?
How convenient for certain "records" to disappear, in case of a subpoena, isn't it?
My, how often the Ramsey's personal records disappeared: phone records coming up "blank" a year later; medical records given "an island of privacy"; bank vaults broken into....
And neither Dr. Beuf nor Patsy "remember" why on earth she called his office after 5 pm THREE TIMES IN ONE HOUR on Dec. 17th--even though her child, who had been repeatedly molested, was murdered only 9 days later.
The coincidences are never-ending in this case. And those who find them coincidences want to be fooled.
and I'm wondering why detectives didn't drill Beuf about said break in? You can't break into a bank's safe deposit box, and what the hell is Beuf up to that he needed to hide a 6 yr old's med records in one for?
He's as hinky as anyone in this case, especially the business of not recalling why Patsy called THREE TIMES IN ONE HOUR! Come on, is he senile? My God, if I saw a doctor that many times, I'd expect an engagement ring. Beuf examined 'that child' over and over again, and to say he can't remember why her mother called three times in one busy day is in my opinion a big fat lie. Snake in the grass might be a doctor for a reason having nothing to do with a love of medicine or healing.

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#189 Nov 9, 2013
"As a security precaution after JonBenet's murder, Dr. Beuf had put all her medical records in a safety deposit box at the bank. Later he discovered that the box had been opened, even though the bank had absolutely guaranteed it could only be opened with the client's personal key. Dr. Beuf was livid.

Obviously, the bank had improperly opened the box and was responsible, so Dr. Beuf contacted the bank, demanding an explanation of what had occurred. To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened. I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch that the police thought he might have been lying about JonBenet's records. Either the police or the media helped themselves to her confidential medical information." (DOI, p. 148)

Since: May 11

AOL

#190 Nov 9, 2013
Mama2JML wrote:
"As a security precaution after JonBenet's murder, Dr. Beuf had put all her medical records in a safety deposit box at the bank. Later he discovered that the box had been opened, even though the bank had absolutely guaranteed it could only be opened with the client's personal key. Dr. Beuf was livid.
Obviously, the bank had improperly opened the box and was responsible, so Dr. Beuf contacted the bank, demanding an explanation of what had occurred. To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened. I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch that the police thought he might have been lying about JonBenet's records. Either the police or the media helped themselves to her confidential medical information." (DOI, p. 148)
That's a bubbling crock if I ever heard one! LOL think of a better spin, this one doesn't wash. The bank has security cameras and someone to assist those who go into their safe deposit boxes. There is no way media or police had a key or even knew which box to open. If police did it they had a warrant, and they had good reason to confiscate a MURDERED CHILD'S MEDICAL RECORDS. Are you for real?

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#191 Nov 9, 2013
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>That's a bubbling crock if I ever heard one! LOL think of a better spin, this one doesn't wash. The bank has security cameras and someone to assist those who go into their safe deposit boxes. There is no way media or police had a key or even knew which box to open. If police did it they had a warrant, and they had good reason to confiscate a MURDERED CHILD'S MEDICAL RECORDS. Are you for real?
I posted THE source that somehow mutated. LE has JB's records & they had them before DOI was released. Missing? No. Stolen? No. Confiscated? No. As for the legitimacy of the rest of the 'story', I have no idea.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#192 Nov 9, 2013
It's not Jonbenet's records that will explain why she was killed, it's Burke's. His records have never been available. They were shrouded in secrecy and given an island of privacy.

He was so emotionally unbalanced, so mentally ill, his anger and actions lead up to Jonbenet's head injury.

If you still think it's normal for a 9 year old boy to leave his feces in his pjs instead of toilet you'll never understand how dysfunctional the entire family was and why one Ramsey kid killed another.

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#193 Nov 9, 2013
Mama2JML wrote:
"As a security precaution after JonBenet's murder, Dr. Beuf had put all her medical records in a safety deposit box at the bank. Later he discovered that the box had been opened, even though the bank had absolutely guaranteed it could only be opened with the client's personal key. Dr. Beuf was livid.
Obviously, the bank had improperly opened the box and was responsible, so Dr. Beuf contacted the bank, demanding an explanation of what had occurred. To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened. I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch that the police thought he might have been lying about JonBenet's records. Either the police or the media helped themselves to her confidential medical information." (DOI, p. 148)
I think the problem is the use of the phrase,“helped themselves.”“Helped themselves” makes it sound as if the records had been removed.

It is said that Beuf discovered that the safe deposit box had been improperly opened and that Beuf complained to the bank about it being improperly opened. Mrs Ramsey speculates –“I have a hunch”– that “the police or the media helped themselves” to the records; but, she does not say that the records were gone from the box. She only says that the box had been improperly opened. It is never said that the records had been tampered with, removed or stolen; it is not said that the records went missing.

It is never said that Beuf complained about the records being tampered with, removed or stolen; only that he complained that the box had been properly opened.
...

AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#194 Nov 9, 2013
koldkase wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a safe deposit box in a bank VAULT got "broken into" without so much as a clue as to how anyone other than Dr. Beuf knew those medical records were in the box? There are only so many boxes in a bank vault; so who went into it during that period of time? Anyone? LE? Crickets?
How convenient for certain "records" to disappear, in case of a subpoena, isn't it?
My, how often the Ramsey's personal records disappeared: phone records coming up "blank" a year later; medical records given "an island of privacy"; bank vaults broken into....
And neither Dr. Beuf nor Patsy "remember" why on earth she called his office after 5 pm THREE TIMES IN ONE HOUR on Dec. 17th--even though her child, who had been repeatedly molested, was murdered only 9 days later.
The coincidences are never-ending in this case. And those who find them coincidences want to be fooled.
Coincidences in life are never ending. They happen every day, over and over, time and again. They happen so often that we probably miss most of them. Some of them catch our eye, some of them are pointed out to us. Once we notice one, it seems to gain some sort of meaning. Or, we think, it must have some sort of meaning.

Coincidences must happen; the Law of Large Number, and all that.

Is there any evidence that connects prior abuse to the murder? Because that’s the proof. That’s how we can know whether these two things are connected or if they are coincidence. We look at the evidence and a disbelief in the commonality and frequency of coincidences is not evidence of anything other than one’s own reasoning process. To disprove coincidence, you need to prove a connection.
...

AK

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#195 Nov 10, 2013
The tale of Dr Beuf's records via the Ramsey book never said the records were stolen, just tampered with which is curious in itself.

How often was Beuf checking them and why? How did it come about that he told the Ramseys or was he asked by them? How could he tell somebody touched them, other than his bloody fingerprints for malpractice and not reporting abuse HOW COULD HE TELL?

This buffon missed the elephant in the room with Burke and Jonbenet's elimination problems and not suspecting sexual molestation. He missed the other elephant with Jonbenet presenting with repeat sinus infections and constant exposure to hair coloring chemicals.

Banks keep records of all vault activity. Two keys are needed for entry into a box, the bank has one and the customer has the other. Was this a box he already had and stored other things in? Was it a box his wife Penny had access to?

Beuf would need to testify if there is any movement towards justice.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#196 Nov 10, 2013
It could be the Ramseys and Dr Beuf assumed the box was opened because personal information from the documents leaked out BUT that is not necessarily the only possibility.

Other sources would have known the kids were mentally ill and sick from school nurses to the housekeeper to teachers to other health care professionals they interacted with. He was not the only doctor these kids saw. The medical records from his office were not the only written reports about Burke and Jonbenet and their peculiar dysfunction.

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#197 Nov 10, 2013
moonjack wrote:
The tale of Dr Beuf's records via the Ramsey book never said the records were stolen, just tampered with which is curious in itself.
How often was Beuf checking them and why? How did it come about that he told the Ramseys or was he asked by them? How could he tell somebody touched them, other than his bloody fingerprints for malpractice and not reporting abuse HOW COULD HE TELL?
This buffon missed the elephant in the room with Burke and Jonbenet's elimination problems and not suspecting sexual molestation. He missed the other elephant with Jonbenet presenting with repeat sinus infections and constant exposure to hair coloring chemicals.
Banks keep records of all vault activity. Two keys are needed for entry into a box, the bank has one and the customer has the other. Was this a box he already had and stored other things in? Was it a box his wife Penny had access to?
Beuf would need to testify if there is any movement towards justice.
Not even tampered with.

Ramsey writes,“...the box had been opened...” and,“...the bank had improperly opened the box...” and “To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened.”
Nothing about the records being tampered with, removed, looked at, etc; just the box improperly opened.

Then, Ramsey writes,“I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch...” Her hunch was “...the police or the media helped themselves...” to the records. Helped themselves in what way? She doesn’t say and it doesn’t matter because she already said that she doesn’t know what happened; she’s merely speculating. More importantly, she doesn’t say that the records were altered in anyway, or removed, or copied, etc.
...

AK

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#199 Nov 10, 2013
If you're claiming Dr Beuf had super powers or xray vision and could tell just by looking that the safety deposit box had been opened then he certainly should have been able to tell Jonbenet's hymen had been tampered with too.

You can't tell just by looking at a box it had been opened just like you can't date DNA.

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#200 Nov 11, 2013
I actually see this scenario as the most viable - the information was most likely gleaned from another source, and it is yet another red herring (misdirection) thrown out to see if anyone will believe it.

1. There would be security footage
2. There would be the log sheet where the 'imposter' had to sign in
3. The person would have had to have the key to the box
4. A bank employee would had to have also been present, making them a witness to the incident
5. The person would have had to have the physical opportunity to open the box which again goes to 1, 2, 3, and 4 above.

In my mind, the biggest question is why in the world would Beuf place the medical records in the safety deposit box in the bank in the first place?
Does he have a history of doing this with other patients? If so, under what circumstances?

It has always sounded like another Ramsey tall tale to me.
moonjack wrote:
It could be the Ramseys and Dr Beuf assumed the box was opened because personal information from the documents leaked out BUT that is not necessarily the only possibility.
The Truth Hurts

Farmington, MI

#201 Nov 11, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
I think the problem is the use of the phrase,“helped themselves.”“Helped themselves” makes it sound as if the records had been removed.
It is said that Beuf discovered that the safe deposit box had been improperly opened and that Beuf complained to the bank about it being improperly opened. Mrs Ramsey speculates –“I have a hunch”– that “the police or the media helped themselves” to the records; but, she does not say that the records were gone from the box. She only says that the box had been improperly opened. It is never said that the records had been tampered with, removed or stolen; it is not said that the records went missing.
It is never said that Beuf complained about the records being tampered with, removed or stolen; only that he complained that the box had been properly opened.
...
AK
How did Beuf know that it had been "improperly opened?" How did he reach such a conclusion? Was it broken open? Was it unlocked when he went to open it? Barring those scenarios, I fail to see how how could know it had been "improperly opened."

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The Truth Hurts

Farmington, MI

#202 Nov 11, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
Not even tampered with.
Ramsey writes,“...the box had been opened...” and,“...the bank had improperly opened the box...” and “To my knowledge, the bank never completely explained how or why the locked box had been opened.”
Nothing about the records being tampered with, removed, looked at, etc; just the box improperly opened.
Then, Ramsey writes,“I don't know what happened, but I have a hunch...” Her hunch was “...the police or the media helped themselves...” to the records. Helped themselves in what way? She doesn’t say and it doesn’t matter because she already said that she doesn’t know what happened; she’s merely speculating. More importantly, she doesn’t say that the records were altered in anyway, or removed, or copied, etc.
...
AK
Because it was all a bunch of BS and just another lie the Ramseys told to make themselves look even more victimized.

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