An IDI Companion: the basement window

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Since: Oct 08

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Dec 6, 2013
 

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I’m not going to argue that the basement window evidence is consistent with an intruder theory. Instead, I’d like to address the argument that the Ramseys staged or tried to stage a basement window entry/exit point for their intruder.

It’s difficult to understand why the Ramseys would stage a break-in when all they needed to do was to tell the police that the doors were unlocked. They could have lied and said that they found a door wide open when they came downstairs that morning.

If they wanted to stage something then all they had to do was raise the garage door a couple feet, and tell the police that the door joining the house/garage was unlocked. Let police discover the raised garage door; voila: entry/exit point. Risk free, virtually effortless staging. Even more effortless? Unlock a couple doors.

Anyway, the argument goes that there are signs of recent disturbance in the basement window area, but that the signs are not sufficient to support the claim of intruder entry/exit; therefore, the signs of disturbance must be staging. Docg adds the twist of un-staging wherein Mr Ramsey fails to complete the staging, realizes that the staging will be obvious because it is incomplete and then decides to un-stage the incomplete staging.
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AK

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Dec 6, 2013
 

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The theory of a staged window scene works equally well regardless of when the window was broken; however, evidence of a recently broken window would provide some needed support for the claim.

The most obvious way of determining how recently the window was broken is to look for broken glass on the floor. If there is no glass on the floor then the window was probably not recently broken.
There is no glass on the floor.

To retain the unnecessary claim of a recently broken window one must then argue that the glass was cleaned up. In other words, that that aspect of the staging was removed: un-staged. We would be better off to just argue that the break was old and that was the reason for choosing the window as a location for a staged scene to begin with.

There is debris from the window well on the floor, and as we see in the dailybeast video, <1> a lot of other stuff, too! Supposedly, this debris is part of the staging. So, now we must believe that a Ramsey decided to un-stage the (incomplete?) staging by somehow managing to pick up the glass but leaving the debris behind. Not only was the staging incomplete, but so was the un-staging!

<1> http://tinyurl.com/8x5cp5a

In the Docg theory, once the police are called at 5:52 Mr Ramsey realizes that his incomplete staging will be discovered. Instead of completing the staging by simply running his sleeve or some object over the sill, Ramsey decides to un-stage the incomplete staging. He runs downstairs and somehow finds and picks up all the scattered and shattered glass, somehow hides or disposes of it, runs back upstairs, gets dressed and is back downstairs in time to greet the police at 5:56.

Ramsey was with Officer French until Reichenbach arrived, and then he was with Reichenbach. He was accounted for between the time the first officers arrived and the time the first officer went to the basement. So, if Mr Ramsey staged a break-in, he must have un-staged it between 5:52 and 5:56.

After un-staging the incomplete staging, thus losing his intruder’s entry/exit point, Mr Ramsey inexplicably decides to tell the police that all the doors were locked!
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AK

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Dec 6, 2013
 

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Some of the RDI window-staging suspicion comes from Mr Ramsey’s and Mrs Ramsey’s statements and such referencing this area. Some find Mr Ramseys recounting of his own break-and-enter experience unbelievable and some see a discordance between Mrs Ramsey’s and LHP’s description of clean-up. All these accounts rely upon memory. MEMORY IS MALLEABLE AND FALLIBLE and because of this PEOPLE ARE NOTORIOUSLY UNRELIABLE AS EYEWITNESSES.

Suggested reading: http://tinyurl.com/k2wadx7 and http://tinyurl.com/n5lp4k6
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AK

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Dec 6, 2013
 

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LHP

Let’s assume LHP to be a credible witness. LHP said,“If there had been broken glass in the basement, Patsy would have told me to clean it up.”

However, Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass and she never makes the claim that LHP cleaned up the glass or that they cleaned up the glass together. Mrs Ramsey “cleaned that thoroughly.” She “picked up every chunk.” She,“scoured that place” and she said that “there was just a ton of glass everywhere.” She “cleaned all that up;” and, she asked LHP “to go behind [her] and vacuum.” She said that LHP “vacuumed a couple of times down there.”

It is not reasonable to believe that Mrs Ramsey would UNNECESSARILY include a non-conspirator or an accomplice in a lie; especially, if she had already cast suspicion on that person!

If Mrs Ramsey was lying about the event, then she would not need to mention LHP. She could stop with, I cleaned that thoroughly; I picked up every chunk. If she was lying, she could have said,“John broke the window, I cleaned it up, it was never repaired, I have no idea if anyone else knew anything about it.”

As for LHP, if she didn’t know there was a broken window, then she didn’t know. If she knows nothing about any glass being cleaned up, then she doesn’t know; after all, Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass.
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AK

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Dec 6, 2013
 

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JOHN

Investigators needed to go into detail when questioning Mr Ramsey about the window and his previous entry because there was evidence of recent disturbance, and because the broken window allowed for a possible, passive (non-forced) entry/exit point. Mr Ramsey’s experience with entry would aid investigators in sorting through and understanding the evidence at that location.

Investigators would also want to know any details about the “why not”(or when/how) of window repairs: it can tell something about attitude towards home and personal security; it can tell something about who might know about the broken window, or who might know that the house could be easily entered this way; to reconcile conflicts with LHP’s version; to help to fill in time frame gaps; to aid in “baseline” response/demeanor to questions; etc.

Of course, there is no evidence that Mr Ramsey lied about his window entry. Some find his story unbelievable, but others find it believable. Some are bothered by his problems with memory, but others are not; in fact, MEMORY IS MALLEABLE AND FALLIBLE and because of this PEOPLE ARE NOTORIOUSLY UNRELIABLE AS EYEWITNESSES.
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AK

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Hi AK,
I think the basement window was broken months before the murder as JR said. If the basement window was broken as a part of the staging, then there would be fragments and broken glass on the outside of the window, where there was not.

I also think that Lou Smit concluding that the basement window as a point of entry AND exit is quite stupid, but as I see things, he was trying to create an intruder.
CC

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Bakatari wrote:
Hi AK,
I think the basement window was broken months before the murder as JR said. If the basement window was broken as a part of the staging, then there would be fragments and broken glass on the outside of the window, where there was not.
I also think that Lou Smit concluding that the basement window as a point of entry AND exit is quite stupid, but as I see things, he was trying to create an intruder.
CC
I agree CC, it was only another red herring and ruse in this case, and prime for Smit to pick up and go off running in his attempt to create an intruder.

“If life gives you melons”

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Anti-K wrote:
JOHN
Investigators would also want to know any details about the “why not”(or when/how) of window repairs: it can tell something about attitude towards home and personal security; it can tell something about who might know about the broken window, or who might know that the house could be easily entered this way; to reconcile conflicts with LHP’s version; to help to fill in time frame gaps; to aid in “baseline” response/demeanor to questions; etc.
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AK
Question please AK? Why do you keep calling your threads “companions”? That is so Jams-ish. Whenever a book was written she had to write a “companion” to it to refute all things Ramsey, and it always reeked of arrogance and her favorite sport which was to say stuff loud and frequently in hopes the more it was said the more it would be believed. The discussion you are bringing to the board is great, but the ‘companion” stuff is déjà vous, and not in a good way, LMAO!

Having said that, the investigators and everyone else need only follow John's patterns to realize he was lousy at home security, but that he certainly could spin a tale when needed.

I think the window in Boulder HAD been broken several months before, and even though he tried to immediately use it to throw Merv under the bus for not having fixed it, I think he spun his version to avoid bring BR into the explanation so that NOTHING pointed to his son, even something totally unrelated to the murder. BR most likely broke the window playing ball in the yard, just as most boys do at some time in their childhood, but JR just couldn’t tell the truth even if it would get him out of trouble.

The alleged break in at their next home AFTER his daughter was murdered was a perfect example of John’s sense of security. Unsecured guns in the home with a 10 year old child, and still not using a security system after your daughter was just murdered – how believable is that really?

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Legal__Eagle wrote:
<quoted text>
Question please AK? Why do you keep calling your threads “companions”? That is so Jams-ish. Whenever a book was written she had to write a “companion” to it to refute all things Ramsey, and it always reeked of arrogance and her favorite sport which was to say stuff loud and frequently in hopes the more it was said the more it would be believed. The discussion you are bringing to the board is great, but the ‘companion” stuff is déjà vous, and not in a good way, LMAO!
Having said that, the investigators and everyone else need only follow John's patterns to realize he was lousy at home security, but that he certainly could spin a tale when needed.
I think the window in Boulder HAD been broken several months before, and even though he tried to immediately use it to throw Merv under the bus for not having fixed it, I think he spun his version to avoid bring BR into the explanation so that NOTHING pointed to his son, even something totally unrelated to the murder. BR most likely broke the window playing ball in the yard, just as most boys do at some time in their childhood, but JR just couldn’t tell the truth even if it would get him out of trouble.
The alleged break in at their next home AFTER his daughter was murdered was a perfect example of John’s sense of security. Unsecured guns in the home with a 10 year old child, and still not using a security system after your daughter was just murdered – how believable is that really?
what about the shards of glass on the suitcase? staged? dust around them?

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Anti-K, you make three good points. 1. JR would have little time to clean up glass, as well as disposing of or hiding the glass. 2. He could have unlocked a door even in conjunction with unstaging the partially staged window. 3. Why would PR include LHP in her glass clean up story if LHP didn't participate?

So what to believe?

JR's story is clearly a fabrication. He's a little unsure about exactly what went down the night he "broke in" to his own house when he supposedly forgot his key.

For one thing, he can't quite recall whether or not he took a cab, but he either did or didn't. Of course he can't have driven his own car because then he'd have his keys. But if he says he definitely took a cab then the next question is what cab company? What time was this?

Then he has trouble bringing to mind the details of his "break in". He took off his shoes, his suite, put his shoes back on, jumped down a 4 foot deep window well, kicked out the glass, yet it's all just a little hard for him to recall. Sorry, but that would stick in one's memory.

The glass apparently wasn't all that well cleaned up, as there is a shard on the suitcase. So is this consistent with a clean up that was done "thoroughly" (according to you) by PR or is it consistent with a hasty clean up that morning?

JR would claim at the 4/97 police interviews that he had gone down the basement and noticed the window not only broken, but the frame ajar about an inch. He claims to have closed it himself, but neglected to mention this to the officers on the scene that morning. But as you say, memory isn't reliable, and it had been four minutes and who could remember something from that long ago?

Then of course, if we are to believe that JR is telling the truth about the window, that means the family lived with it broken for four or more months -depending on what month JR "broke in". No concern for security, no concern for wind, leaves, rain, snow, mice, etc. coming in the window. No attempt to cover the broken pane with a piece of plywood or even just taping cardboard over it. Hard to believe, imo.

It's also hard to believe that LHP didn't know anything about a window that had been broken for months, especially since it was her husband who was often called upon for those kinds of repairs. So whether LHP simply can't recall cleaning up glass, or whether PR is misremembering or whether PR is lying, it still remains unlikely that LHP didn't know about the broken window, yet she claims to know nothing about any broken window.

Burke of course knows precisely whether or not the window in his train room had been broken for months on end w/o being fixed. We don't know what BR has to say on this subject.

So, what to believe?
Steve Eller

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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There was no intruder....the jig is up...the charade is over. It is all over but the shouting--or the preposterous juxtapositions of the Ramsey Apologists.

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Bakatari wrote:
Hi AK,
I think the basement window was broken months before the murder as JR said. If the basement window was broken as a part of the staging, then there would be fragments and broken glass on the outside of the window, where there was not.
I also think that Lou Smit concluding that the basement window as a point of entry AND exit is quite stupid, but as I see things, he was trying to create an intruder.
CC
In the Docg version, Mr Ramsey first opens the window and then he breaks it from the exterior side so that the glass falls inside and onto the floor.
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AK

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Legal__Eagle wrote:
<quoted text>
Question please AK? Why do you keep calling your threads “companions”? That is so Jams-ish. Whenever a book was written she had to write a “companion” to it to refute all things Ramsey, and it always reeked of arrogance and her favorite sport which was to say stuff loud and frequently in hopes the more it was said the more it would be believed. The discussion you are bringing to the board is great, but the ‘companion” stuff is déjà vous, and not in a good way, LMAO!
Having said that, the investigators and everyone else need only follow John's patterns to realize he was lousy at home security, but that he certainly could spin a tale when needed.
I think the window in Boulder HAD been broken several months before, and even though he tried to immediately use it to throw Merv under the bus for not having fixed it, I think he spun his version to avoid bring BR into the explanation so that NOTHING pointed to his son, even something totally unrelated to the murder. BR most likely broke the window playing ball in the yard, just as most boys do at some time in their childhood, but JR just couldn’t tell the truth even if it would get him out of trouble.
The alleged break in at their next home AFTER his daughter was murdered was a perfect example of John’s sense of security. Unsecured guns in the home with a 10 year old child, and still not using a security system after your daughter was just murdered – how believable is that really?
I titled two threads that way because they are intended to be companions to my “consistent with an intruder” thread.
The grate over the window well should have protected the window from any ball playing, etc.
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AK

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Dec 7, 2013
 

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realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
what about the shards of glass on the suitcase? staged? dust around them?
A little date stamping would be nice.

As I remember it, White moved the suitcase. Was the glass there before he moved it? Or, did it fall there later, when White or Ramsey or investigators were mucking about?

The piece of glass White put on the sill and the piece on the suitcase are consistent with what we might expect to find if someone had reached in through an already broken window and dislodged a couple pieces of glass in the process.

When I look at the dailybeast video and some of the other pictures we’ve seen I find it very easy to imagine that glass being there on the floor for quite some time. It certainly doesn’t look like any recent vacuuming, sweeping, cleaning up of any kind had been done in a while.
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Dec 7, 2013
 

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Delta88 wrote:
Anti-K, you make three good points. 1. JR would have little time to clean up glass, as well as disposing of or hiding the glass. 2. He could have unlocked a door even in conjunction with unstaging the partially staged window. 3. Why would PR include LHP in her glass clean up story if LHP didn't participate?
So what to believe?
JR's story is clearly a fabrication. He's a little unsure about exactly what went down the night he "broke in" to his own house when he supposedly forgot his key.
For one thing, he can't quite recall whether or not he took a cab, but he either did or didn't. Of course he can't have driven his own car because then he'd have his keys. But if he says he definitely took a cab then the next question is what cab company? What time was this?
Then he has trouble bringing to mind the details of his "break in". He took off his shoes, his suite, put his shoes back on, jumped down a 4 foot deep window well, kicked out the glass, yet it's all just a little hard for him to recall. Sorry, but that would stick in one's memory.
The glass apparently wasn't all that well cleaned up, as there is a shard on the suitcase. So is this consistent with a clean up that was done "thoroughly" (according to you) by PR or is it consistent with a hasty clean up that morning?
JR would claim at the 4/97 police interviews that he had gone down the basement and noticed the window not only broken, but the frame ajar about an inch. He claims to have closed it himself, but neglected to mention this to the officers on the scene that morning. But as you say, memory isn't reliable, and it had been four minutes and who could remember something from that long ago?
Then of course, if we are to believe that JR is telling the truth about the window, that means the family lived with it broken for four or more months -depending on what month JR "broke in". No concern for security, no concern for wind, leaves, rain, snow, mice, etc. coming in the window. No attempt to cover the broken pane with a piece of plywood or even just taping cardboard over it. Hard to believe, imo.
It's also hard to believe that LHP didn't know anything about a window that had been broken for months, especially since it was her husband who was often called upon for those kinds of repairs. So whether LHP simply can't recall cleaning up glass, or whether PR is misremembering or whether PR is lying, it still remains unlikely that LHP didn't know about the broken window, yet she claims to know nothing about any broken window.
Burke of course knows precisely whether or not the window in his train room had been broken for months on end w/o being fixed. We don't know what BR has to say on this subject.
So, what to believe?
Mr Ramsey’s story is not a clear fabrication. That is a purely subjective claim and is not borne out by evidence or reason.

When the police arrived – French and Veitch - they did a cursory search of the house and the basement; they were down there before White and before Ramsey, so the police should have already known how the window was without anyone telling them anything. This could explain why although both Ramsey and White knew about the window, as far as we know; although, in at least one version of the story Mr Ramsey claims to have told Arnt about the window.

It’s a basement window, it’s below ground and beneath a grate. So, not such a big concern; maybe you or I wold have had it repaired right away, but we’re not the Ramseys.

As for LHP, I find it easy to believe that she didn’t know about the broken window. Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass, not LHP. Mrs Ramsey claims that LHP was told to sweep or vacuum, but we don’t know if LHP knew why she was being asked told to do that and we don’t know that LHP actually did it. She might not have, since she claims to have not known about the window and considering the appearance of the floor as we see it in the video and pictures.
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AK

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#16
Dec 8, 2013
 

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Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
In the Docg version, Mr Ramsey first opens the window and then he breaks it from the exterior side so that the glass falls inside and onto the floor.
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AK
Yes, but IF that was the case, why would they clean up the broken glass on the floor? If you want to make it appear like an intruder came in.

CC

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Dec 8, 2013
 
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
Mr Ramsey’s story is not a clear fabrication. That is a purely subjective claim and is not borne out by evidence or reason.
When the police arrived – French and Veitch - they did a cursory search of the house and the basement; they were down there before White and before Ramsey, so the police should have already known how the window was without anyone telling them anything. This could explain why although both Ramsey and White knew about the window, as far as we know; although, in at least one version of the story Mr Ramsey claims to have told Arnt about the window.
It’s a basement window, it’s below ground and beneath a grate. So, not such a big concern; maybe you or I wold have had it repaired right away, but we’re not the Ramseys.
As for LHP, I find it easy to believe that she didn’t know about the broken window. Mrs Ramsey cleaned up the glass, not LHP. Mrs Ramsey claims that LHP was told to sweep or vacuum, but we don’t know if LHP knew why she was being asked told to do that and we don’t know that LHP actually did it. She might not have, since she claims to have not known about the window and considering the appearance of the floor as we see it in the video and pictures.
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AK
There is little that is proven beyond doubt, that is why we are still talking about this case 17 years later. With anything the Rs say, we must assess whether or not they are telling the truth. Necessarily that is subjective. You're belief that they are telling the truth about the window is equally subjective.

Cursory is a good word for the way the police conducted their search. Kolar is suspicious of JR's failure to report the ajar window frame, so there must be some reason he thought JR should have mentioned it.

Yes, maybe they didn't have it repaired. People are different. Maybe the Ramseys are so different they don't care about the cold air of December blowing in their window. Maybe they didn't care about mosquitoes and flies coming in during the summer, or mice coming in when the weather turned cold. Maybe they didn't bother taping a piece of cardboard over the hole. Maybe they weren't concerned with jagged pieces of glass falling out as the children played nearby. Maybe they left the shard of glass on the suitcase because, after all, why worry, it's just a room where Burke has his train set up. And of course, if the glass was on the suitcase because JR broke in himself, then the suitcase has been there in that spot since summer, when JR broke the window. Yet JR says it's not where it belongs -but again, like the ajar window, he neglects to mention this on Dec 26th, preferring to wait until April of '97.

And yes, JR does eventually claim that he told Arendt about the window being open. Who to believe?

You are really stretching with your comments on LHP. LHP denies vacuuming up glass. So you suggest maybe she didn't do as she was told. She's the housekeeper. Had she been told to clean up glass she'd have done so. Your suggestion that she might not have been told the reason for cleaning up broken glass mystifies me. Isn't it self evident why a housekeeper would be asked to clean up broken glass? And wouldn't LHP have asked how the window got broken? Wouldn't LHP know about the break in story?

Patsy doesn't claim to have cleaned up glass after LHP neglected to do so. Patsy says it was a team effort by her and LHP. LHP doesn't remember doing that.

If I heard this testimony at a trial, I'd have to think JR lied about the window, and that PR lied about cleaning up the glass.

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#18
Dec 8, 2013
 
To clarify my prior post, I think PR was lying about LHP helping to clean up the glass.
Just Wondering

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Dec 8, 2013
 

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Anti-K wrote:
I’m not going to argue that the basement window evidence is consistent with an intruder theory. Instead, I’d like to address the argument that the Ramseys staged or tried to stage a basement window entry/exit point for their intruder.
It’s difficult to understand why the Ramseys would stage a break-in when all they needed to do was to tell the police that the doors were unlocked. They could have lied and said that they found a door wide open when they came downstairs that morning.
If they wanted to stage something then all they had to do was raise the garage door a couple feet, and tell the police that the door joining the house/garage was unlocked. Let police discover the raised garage door; voila: entry/exit point. Risk free, virtually effortless staging. Even more effortless? Unlock a couple doors.
Anyway, the argument goes that there are signs of recent disturbance in the basement window area, but that the signs are not sufficient to support the claim of intruder entry/exit; therefore, the signs of disturbance must be staging. Docg adds the twist of un-staging wherein Mr Ramsey fails to complete the staging, realizes that the staging will be obvious because it is incomplete and then decides to un-stage the incomplete staging.
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AK
I am really thinking that the entry point was the one thing the Ramseys completely overlooked. They were consumed with making this appear like a kidnapping/murder and trying to cover the original cause of death, that it completely slipped their mind. The most necessary, simple, and obvious of the details was completely overlooked.

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Delta88 wrote:
<quoted text>
There is little that is proven beyond doubt, that is why we are still talking about this case 17 years later. With anything the Rs say, we must assess whether or not they are telling the truth. Necessarily that is subjective. You're belief that they are telling the truth about the window is equally subjective.
Cursory is a good word for the way the police conducted their search. Kolar is suspicious of JR's failure to report the ajar window frame, so there must be some reason he thought JR should have mentioned it.
Yes, maybe they didn't have it repaired. People are different. Maybe the Ramseys are so different they don't care about the cold air of December blowing in their window. Maybe they didn't care about mosquitoes and flies coming in during the summer, or mice coming in when the weather turned cold. Maybe they didn't bother taping a piece of cardboard over the hole. Maybe they weren't concerned with jagged pieces of glass falling out as the children played nearby. Maybe they left the shard of glass on the suitcase because, after all, why worry, it's just a room where Burke has his train set up. And of course, if the glass was on the suitcase because JR broke in himself, then the suitcase has been there in that spot since summer, when JR broke the window. Yet JR says it's not where it belongs -but again, like the ajar window, he neglects to mention this on Dec 26th, preferring to wait until April of '97.
And yes, JR does eventually claim that he told Arendt about the window being open. Who to believe?
You are really stretching with your comments on LHP. LHP denies vacuuming up glass. So you suggest maybe she didn't do as she was told. She's the housekeeper. Had she been told to clean up glass she'd have done so. Your suggestion that she might not have been told the reason for cleaning up broken glass mystifies me. Isn't it self evident why a housekeeper would be asked to clean up broken glass? And wouldn't LHP have asked how the window got broken? Wouldn't LHP know about the break in story?
Patsy doesn't claim to have cleaned up glass after LHP neglected to do so. Patsy says it was a team effort by her and LHP. LHP doesn't remember doing that.
If I heard this testimony at a trial, I'd have to think JR lied about the window, and that PR lied about cleaning up the glass.
LHP says that she wasn’t asked to clean up any glass. Maybe she wasn’t.

Mrs Ramsey doesn’t actually say that she and LHP cleaned up the glass together, and, she doesn’t actually say that she asked LHP to clean up any glass. Mrs Ramsey said that SHE “cleaned [the glass up] thoroughly;” that SHE “picked up every chunk;” that SHE “scoured that place;” that SHE “cleaned all that up;” and then she asked LHP “to go behind [her] and vacuum.”

Mrs Ramsey may have cleaned up the glass when LHP was off shift, and then asked LHP to vacuum the area when LHP next came to work. If LHP was present when Mrs Ramsey picked up the glass, then why didn’t Mrs Ramsey tell LHP to pick it up? Why didn’t Mrs Ramsey say to interviewers,“WE picked up every chunk; WE cleaned all that up?”
Mrs Ramsey said that LHP “vacuumed a couple of times down there.”

Did LHP do so? In the dailybeast video and crime photos we’ve seen, that area looks neglected.
...

AK

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