Steve Eller

United States

#36 Apr 2, 2013
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
Steve, I certainly do not think Kolar was trying to deceive. When you think about all the items he had to sift through,in that file, it would not be shocking to think he came to a wrong conclusion; was mistaken or simply did not make his point well.
While overall the material is organized well there are some passages that could have been written better. I don't think there is any wrong information about the pineapple, I do think that his phraeseology (in the book and elsewhere) sometimes suffers out of his grossly overabundant fear and paranoia of being sued by the Ramseys. As for my comments about deception, they were not directed at you. However, it is clear that a couple of posters on this forum are heck bent to find something with which ta assail Kolar and their desperation is manifesting in ridiculous arguments and personal attacks.
icedtea4me

Florissant, MO

#39 Apr 2, 2013
DrSeussMd wrote:
No, you are not reading what was said correctly.
Moonjack was telling the poster s/he was answering that THAT POSTER WAS INTERPRETING IT THAT WAY (meaning that it was expelled). That wasn't moonjack's interpretation.
I was just trying to be helpful -
But whatever floats your boat!
<quoted text>
Moonjack said to BrotherMoon: The pineapple obviously did not pass through Jonbenet’s entire digestive tract or it would have been flushed which is where these repeat threads belong. It moved through the system and ended up where it was found, no more no less. It is your personal interpretation that ‘moved through the system’ means passed through her entire GI tract and was expelled as human excrement.

I replied to Moonjack: Would you mind pointing out where BrotherMoon said "JonBenet expelled feces containing pineapple"?

Why the hell you would think that I thought that Moonjack was the one who thought that JonBenet expelled feces containing pineapple I'll never know.

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#40 Apr 2, 2013
LMAO, not to worry, you are always crystal clear!
icedtea4me wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, I see. So, "...and was expelled...", in your mind, equals "...and it wasn't expelled...".
Like I said - whatever floats your boat.
icedtea4me wrote:
Why the hell you would think that I thought ...

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#41 Apr 2, 2013
learnin wrote:
Hi, AK. I just lost a long reply to your questions so I'll have to abbreviate this one.
After having read Kolar's words again, I think he believes that
JBR ate pineapple and, shortly thereafter, was struck on the head. She survived approx. two hours before the ligature was tightened.
I think he might be misinterpreting some of the expert opinions. It can take up to 5 hours for a full meal to, completely, exit the stomach. If this is the case, then, the first part of the meal exits the stomach within minutes and, after five hours, is completely through the small intestine.
JBR did not eat a full meal. She ate only one or two pineapple cubes. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT, FROM THE AUTOPSY, WE CAN SAFELY BELIEVE THAT SHE ONLY HAD A CUBE OR TWO OF PINEAPPLE. Since she only ate a few pieces of pineapple, it did not take two hours (definitely not five) for those fragments to be where they were found in the proximal small intestine.
You asked about the possibility of JBR being sick and what that would mean in regards to the pineapple transit time. If JBR had a stomach virus, for instance, this could slow or stop peristalsis muscular contraction of the intestinal walls) altogether. If this is the case, then, my timeline is useless. This is why I have always maintained it is of utmost importance to know whether any person saw JBR eat at the White's. We know there was no food in JBR's stomach or small intestine (other than the pineapple) at time of death. If JBR ate food at the White's, then, we know her digestive system was not compromised by illness.
You asked how long the pineapple could have stayed where it was found, if it, as I have stated, did arrive there within 15 minutes.
As long as peristalsis existed, then, the pineapple would not stay in one place for very long. Conceivably, if JBR was picked up and carried after death, gravity might cause some movement but it would soon encounter a loop or bend in the bowel. I believe peristalsis ended with the head trauma. After the head blow occurred, I believe shock ended the bowel peristalsis. I believe the pineapple remained right where it was, when located at autopsy, after the head blow occurred Keep in mind that 15 minutes, IMO, would be the earliest possible scenario. I believe this timeline coincides with what the autopsy tells us about the brain injury and hemorrhage.
I believe JBR ate a bite or two of pineapple and was struck on the head within 30 minutes. Strangulation followed shortly thereafter.
Hope this helps.
Thanks learnin, nice post, great comments. I’ll have a few of my own later on – been busy.


AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#43 Apr 2, 2013
learnin wrote:
Hi, AK. I just lost a long reply to your questions so I'll have to abbreviate this one.
After having read Kolar's words again, I think he believes that
JBR ate pineapple and, shortly thereafter, was struck on the head. She survived approx. two hours before the ligature was tightened.
I think he might be misinterpreting some of the expert opinions. It can take up to 5 hours for a full meal to, completely, exit the stomach. If this is the case, then, the first part of the meal exits the stomach within minutes and, after five hours, is completely through the small intestine.
JBR did not eat a full meal. She ate only one or two pineapple cubes. I AGREE WITH YOU THAT, FROM THE AUTOPSY, WE CAN SAFELY BELIEVE THAT SHE ONLY HAD A CUBE OR TWO OF PINEAPPLE. Since she only ate a few pieces of pineapple, it did not take two hours (definitely not five) for those fragments to be where they were found in the proximal small intestine.
You asked about the possibility of JBR being sick and what that would mean in regards to the pineapple transit time. If JBR had a stomach virus, for instance, this could slow or stop peristalsis muscular contraction of the intestinal walls) altogether. If this is the case, then, my timeline is useless. This is why I have always maintained it is of utmost importance to know whether any person saw JBR eat at the White's. We know there was no food in JBR's stomach or small intestine (other than the pineapple) at time of death. If JBR ate food at the White's, then, we know her digestive system was not compromised by illness.
You asked how long the pineapple could have stayed where it was found, if it, as I have stated, did arrive there within 15 minutes.
As long as peristalsis existed, then, the pineapple would not stay in one place for very long. Conceivably, if JBR was picked up and carried after death, gravity might cause some movement but it would soon encounter a loop or bend in the bowel. I believe peristalsis ended with the head trauma. After the head blow occurred, I believe shock ended the bowel peristalsis. I believe the pineapple remained right where it was, when located at autopsy, after the head blow occurred Keep in mind that 15 minutes, IMO, would be the earliest possible scenario. I believe this timeline coincides with what the autopsy tells us about the brain injury and hemorrhage.
I believe JBR ate a bite or two of pineapple and was struck on the head within 30 minutes. Strangulation followed shortly thereafter.
Hope this helps.
One more question, if you don’t mind: does sleep effect the process?
tia


AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#44 Apr 2, 2013
deb wrote:
<quoted text>
Was it tested as pineapple?
“Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl.” Thomas; p. 192

In the case of the pineapple I think that “consistent with” is almost meaningless. Fresh cut pineapple in my bowl is going to be consistent with the fresh cut pineapple in your bowl and that’s just the way it is. Not even DNA could identify one pineapple with another simply because of issues such as cloning of the plants – mass production, etc.

But, yes I think it is safe to say that the substance was pineapple and that it probably came from the bowl, or at least from the same place as the pineapple in the bowl.


AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#45 Apr 2, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
NO matter what Kolar MEANT or relayed, we all know about the pineapple. It is possible that she only had a couple of pieces, but that is not what the issue is. We also know she ate it shortly before she died We know it is from the Ramsey house
The question is: Who gave it to her? She could not open the refrigerator by herself according to Patsy, she was "sound asleep" when she got home and was put to bed according to her family (all except for Burke who stated she was awake and walked in) Soooo, the question remains after all these years:
Who gave it to her?
Did anyone give it to her?

We don’t know when or how the pineapple in the bowl came about, but there it is, so why couldn’t Jonbenet simply have taken a piece of it? Or, from wherever pineapple was supposedly served into?


AK

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#47 Apr 3, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
..... so why couldn’t Jonbenet simply have taken a piece of it? Or, from wherever pineapple was supposedly served into?

AK
Because there was no pineapple served at the Whites, it was the Ramseys' pineapple, The Ramseys claimed she was fast asleep and was put directly to bed without passing go, and the pineapple was in the fridge where according to her parents, she couldn't open on her own.

So, she simply could NOT take a piece of it unless she was both AWAKE or someone gave it to her and she wasn't sleeping at all
Heloise

UK

#48 Apr 3, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Because there was no pineapple served at the Whites, it was the Ramseys' pineapple, The Ramseys claimed she was fast asleep and was put directly to bed without passing go, and the pineapple was in the fridge where according to her parents, she couldn't open on her own.
So, she simply could NOT take a piece of it unless she was both AWAKE or someone gave it to her and she wasn't sleeping at all
I agree. The intruder feeding her pineapple is absurd for so many reasons. Firstly, at some point they 'gagged' her and tied her up (and according to some, even now) used a stun gun to control her. Before that, though, they were comfortable that she wouldn't chatter while eating and sufficiently happy that no one would come downstairs (eg. Burke, who said he could hear the fridge opening when he was in his bedroom) that they fed her (obviously ungagged) and let her live for long enough for the pineapple to reach a certain stage of digestion. PLEASE!

Of course, she the pineapple could have been forced down a tube in her throat to make the Ramseys look guilty (copyright: an old poster on one of the sites)......
Heloise

UK

#49 Apr 3, 2013
Doh - she the pineapple, indeed. 'Of course, the pineapple..' I mean.
Steve Eller

United States

#50 Apr 3, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Because there was no pineapple served at the Whites, it was the Ramseys' pineapple, The Ramseys claimed she was fast asleep and was put directly to bed without passing go, and the pineapple was in the fridge where according to her parents, she couldn't open on her own.
So, she simply could NOT take a piece of it unless she was both AWAKE or someone gave it to her and she wasn't sleeping at all
Your post sums it up very well. I'm starting to think that it is not nearly as difficult to comprehend what you just described. I think the difficulty lies in accepting it because it wreaks havoc with all of their ridiculous excuses and absurd theories on the case.

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#51 Apr 3, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Because there was no pineapple served at the Whites, it was the Ramseys' pineapple, The Ramseys claimed she was fast asleep and was put directly to bed without passing go, and the pineapple was in the fridge where according to her parents, she couldn't open on her own.
So, she simply could NOT take a piece of it unless she was both AWAKE or someone gave it to her and she wasn't sleeping at all
As far as I can remember it has never been determined when the pineapple was set out, or by whom or under what circumstances just as it has never been determined when Jonbenet ate that small piece, or under what circumstances.

I do agree that it is very unlikely that an intruder could have fed it to her, but I don’t see this as meaning that it is more likely that ANYONE fed it to her. in fact, I think it is more likely that she ate it on her own without anyone knowing about it.


AK

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#52 Apr 3, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
As far as I can remember it has never been determined when the pineapple was set out, or by whom or under what circumstances just as it has never been determined when Jonbenet ate that small piece, or under what circumstances.
I do agree that it is very unlikely that an intruder could have fed it to her, but I don’t see this as meaning that it is more likely that ANYONE fed it to her. in fact, I think it is more likely that she ate it on her own without anyone knowing about it.

AK
It HAS been determined by those NOT on the internet forums that the pineapple was eaten just a short time before she died, which still begs the question of how she got it.

According to Patsy, she didn't even recognize the pineapple that was in her own house. It was in the fridge and supposedly JBR couldn't reach or open the refrigerator door. Had she been able to help herself to snacks, according to Patsy (again, if you believe her), pineapple would not have been what she would have selected, so the "bugaboo" still remains and it doesn't look good for the Ramseys. Like a broken clock, even Smit can be right once in awhile and one of those times is when he called the pineapple dilemma a "bugaboo"

It remains a "bugaboo" to this day and there is just NO explanation that favors the Ramseys regarding the pineapple. They were locked into the story of JBR being fast asleep and going directly into her bed. Of course, we still have Burke who states that she was awake and walked into the house and up to bed.

Who to believe..........who to believe....

It's still a bugaboo

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#53 Apr 3, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
One more question, if you don’t mind: does sleep effect the process?
tia

AK
Not significantly, no.

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#54 Apr 3, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
It HAS been determined by those NOT on the internet forums that the pineapple was eaten just a short time before she died, which still begs the question of how she got it.
According to Patsy, she didn't even recognize the pineapple that was in her own house. It was in the fridge and supposedly JBR couldn't reach or open the refrigerator door. Had she been able to help herself to snacks, according to Patsy (again, if you believe her), pineapple would not have been what she would have selected, so the "bugaboo" still remains and it doesn't look good for the Ramseys. Like a broken clock, even Smit can be right once in awhile and one of those times is when he called the pineapple dilemma a "bugaboo"
It remains a "bugaboo" to this day and there is just NO explanation that favors the Ramseys regarding the pineapple. They were locked into the story of JBR being fast asleep and going directly into her bed. Of course, we still have Burke who states that she was awake and walked into the house and up to bed.
Who to believe..........who to believe....
It's still a bugaboo
It's one of those things, Cap, that always goes wrong in the perfect coverup...one of those little tidbits, going unnoticed....perhaps forgotten, that comes back and slaps you in the face as you're trying to cover your arse with lies.

Now. If you've got money, you cand hide, stall, misdirect, avoid direct questioning, do anything to avoid being slapped in the face with that little tidbit you forgot about, or didn't know about. But, that little piece of Hawaii still screams out loud and clear after all these years.

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#56 Apr 3, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
It HAS been determined by those NOT on the internet forums that the pineapple was eaten just a short time before she died, which still begs the question of how she got it.
According to Patsy, she didn't even recognize the pineapple that was in her own house. It was in the fridge and supposedly JBR couldn't reach or open the refrigerator door. Had she been able to help herself to snacks, according to Patsy (again, if you believe her), pineapple would not have been what she would have selected, so the "bugaboo" still remains and it doesn't look good for the Ramseys. Like a broken clock, even Smit can be right once in awhile and one of those times is when he called the pineapple dilemma a "bugaboo"
It remains a "bugaboo" to this day and there is just NO explanation that favors the Ramseys regarding the pineapple. They were locked into the story of JBR being fast asleep and going directly into her bed. Of course, we still have Burke who states that she was awake and walked into the house and up to bed.
Who to believe..........who to believe....
It's still a bugaboo
Oh? I was not aware that it has “been determined by those NOT on the internet forums that the pineapple was eaten just a short time before she died.” I do know what the Schiller, Thomas and Kolar book have to say on the matter and Kolar (p. 65) and Thomas (p. 305) both give times of approx. two to five hours while Schiller reports (p. 777) between 1 and a half or two hours and as early as 4:30. So, who are these persons “NOT on the internet forums” and exactly what did they say?


AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#57 Apr 3, 2013
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
Not significantly, no.
Thank you.


AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#58 Apr 3, 2013
BTW, for those interested and since this is still A Kolar discrepancy thread: while many experts are mentioned by name in both PMPT and the Thomas book there is no mention of a Dr Rorke in either. just sayin’…


AK

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#59 Apr 3, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh? I was not aware that it has “been determined by those NOT on the internet forums that the pineapple was eaten just a short time before she died.” I do know what the Schiller, Thomas and Kolar book have to say on the matter and Kolar (p. 65) and Thomas (p. 305) both give times of approx. two to five hours while Schiller reports (p. 777) between 1 and a half or two hours and as early as 4:30. So, who are these persons “NOT on the internet forums” and exactly what did they say?

AK
AK, since you've been discussing this pineapple thing, I thought it would be pertinent to mention this fact as further evidence that the 2-5 hour time line (in regards to the pineapple) is false.

My friend has a daughter who, recently, had to have her entire colon (large intestine) removed. So she would not have to live with a colostomy for the rest of her life, the physicians hooked her small intestine up to the rectum. Now. Do you know how long it takes for her meal to reach the rectum? FIFTY ONE MINUTES TO THE MINUTE. The intestinal specialist, who performed the surgery,
told them that SEVENTY ONE MINUTES WOULD BE THE MAX.

Now, fellow posters. Please let this important piece of information soak in. This young lady is an adult and her small intestine is longer than the small intestine of a six year old girl, which is only about 12 feet. If it only takes FIFTY ONE MINUTES for food to pass from the mouth to the end of an adult's small intestine, how long do you think it took a couple of pineapple cubes to pass one foot past JBR's stomach????

Fifteen to thirty minutes is the most probable answer. Just as my experiment confirmed. Fellow posters! Jonbenet KNEW the person who struck her skull. I repeat.
Jonbenet KNEW the person who struck her skull. If it wasn't a family member, it was an acquaintance who was well known by JBR.

A perfect stranger did not zap JBR, take her down stairs for a snack, and then split her skull. JBR did not go down stairs, eat some pineapple, go back upstairs and go to bed and then get zapped.

If it wasn't a family member, JBR had to go down with someone she knew, eat some pineapple that was left out, before going to the basement with this acquaintance. In other words, WHY HASN'T LE SOLVED THIS CRIME IF THE ATTACKER WAS SOMEONE KNOWN TO JBR. How many teenagers, or adults, would JBR be familiar enough with to go down stairs in the middle of the night.

If the DNA belongs to the killer, why hasn't it been matched since it belongs to someone known to JBR?

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#61 Apr 3, 2013
I appreciate what you’re saying as far as timeline goes and I’m not disputing it.

However, I do know that this is something that is individualistic and contingent and that there is a range of time and that your 15 minutes is at one end of that range. That’s an hour and fifteen minutes shorter than any of the common sources report (PMPT, Thomas, Kolar) but I find your 15 minutes to be believable and acceptable.

I do think it most likely that Jonbenet ate that small, perhaps single piece of pineapple without anyone’s knowledge. Under what circumstance? I don’t know. When did she eat it? I don’t know. Cracked crab was set aside for her, but did she eat at the White’s? I don’t know? Was she unwell (stories vary) in some way that would affect her appetite and/or the digestive process? I don’t know.

It’s a bugaboo. It’s a bugaboo because it SHOULD tell us something, but it tells us nothing; she ate it, that’s it.


AK

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