The Oakland County Child Killer
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#224 Mar 4, 2007
Terri wrote:
Helen and friends,
I was not banned, sorry.
Helen DID ask me to call her.
I could care less about Dan.
Dan has not been banned either.
That site I started was just because I was tired that night, it's going down because Helen is not worth the trouble. Although, I see another group has been started. I haven't been over there yet. It might be good. I guess we'll see.
Why are you guys so afraid of us that you have to keep posting and whining about us ? Helen has her site, so what's the big deal ? Are we compatition to her ? Why do you care about our chats? You think they're funny, right? So what's the big deal?
I think Helen is worried we know something she doesn't. Yes, there are dum dums on here. I like to amuse myself too, but why read them then go tell Helen? If she wanted to read the forum I'm sure she has two eyes. Well, two faces anyway.
I'm not harrassing her either. I just tried to call her, like she asked me to. Hell, I really didn't want to talk to her anyway. The only reason she didn't pick up is because I told her I'd be recording our conversation. She can't let that happen. And she gave me her number, not Kdogg. She also gave me her address. She wanted me to mail her some pictures we had spoke of. Like I was ever going to do that.
I don't know if Kdogg is Terri. I think it's impolite not to mail Helen Dagner some pictures they had spoke of. Kdogg seems to ask Helen enough questions when he wants to, and he seems very keen to obtain her phone number.

To my mind that Judy Ferro case was an open and shut case. It was a slam dunk case as the cops would say. Gary Pervinkler murdered Judy Ferro and then drove off in his family car and killed himself with his own revolver. There is no forensic evidence, or any other evidence, that anybody else was involved. I wouldn't say Fleet White was involved in that. I can't quite see how Dan can say thet Gary was involved either.

I don't know what real evidence Kdogg has that his Gus suspect was ever involved in any OCCK murders. I still don't know if Gary is in prison, or out of prison, or what exactly Carl and Uncle Carl and Paul B have got to do with any murders.

Helen Dagner's John must be the prime suspect in the OCCK murders. John's alibi is suspect for a start. He said he was visiting his father in Florida at the time of the murders when his father didn't live in Florida, but in Chicago. John seems to have gone to live in Georgia for a few years and Georgia police don't seem to have any idea how many people John murdered when he lived there. I think John has had major heart surgery, so the murders my have stopped for a time.

I agree the Oakland County police suspect Norberg is a person of interest. There is no real evidence Norberg murdered anybody, except perhaps that he worked in the same area as Kimberly King was found murdered in 1979, two years after the OCCK murders.

A witness described seeing Jill Robinson between two rough looking men. Those men need to be identified. Other murder victims in that Michigan area seem to have been girl hitchhikers. The official line seems to be that there was no connection between Jane Allan's murder and the OCCK murders.
CandyO

Glen Burnie, MD

#225 Mar 4, 2007
I gather your post is referring to the Detroit News article obtained by Bill Gray of March 27, 1977. Danto does state that the "triggering" events were the december death of Judy Ferro and the January 1976 deaths of Cynthia C and Sheila S. Note the word TRIGGER - and this is not directed at you Kdogg, but Dan in Detroit. This letter was published after Timothy King's body was discovered and does not ever draw a link that the killer is one in the same.

This is the same issue that upped the reward to $50,000 for information leading to the arrest of the OCCK. So Dan, who has been notably absent since this Pervinkler information came out...if Gary asked you for a hair (pubic or otherwise) while all of this was going on and he was talking about all of this killing he was doing, why didn't you turn him in and try to collect the reward? It would have helped pay for college and there would still be some left over for your daughter's college too.

This is the same issue that contains a lengthy article about Tom Robinson's anger at LE for their lack of initiative and information sharing, "... I'd like to know where in the hell the coordination is in the investigation, the overview on all of the cases. Who knows which four cases will turn up the clue which will result in picking up the creep who is responsible for all of this." The article goes on to say that Robinson stated that task force officers from the tri-county area have not been shown reports from the Troy police Dept.[ the jurisdiction in which Jill was found.]

And, this thought that hasn't changed in 30's years and is still uttered by all of us who care," I'm sure there's something that's been reviewed already, maybe several times, that might be the key if it's looked at in a different light."
CandyO

Glen Burnie, MD

#226 Mar 4, 2007
Nancy - you seem to have a good, positive every heart!
Kdogg

Green Springs, OH

#227 Mar 4, 2007
Another thing that gets me about Gary P is that he wants to commit suicide and shoots himself in the chest. Why not the head? And why try first aid in the car after shooting yourself?
Kdogg

Green Springs, OH

#228 Mar 4, 2007
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know if Kdogg is Terri. I think it's impolite not to mail Helen Dagner some pictures they had spoke of. Kdogg seems to ask Helen enough questions when he wants to, and he seems very keen to obtain her phone number.
To my mind that Judy Ferro case was an open and shut case. It was a slam dunk case as the cops would say. Gary Pervinkler murdered Judy Ferro and then drove off in his family car and killed himself with his own revolver. There is no forensic evidence, or any other evidence, that anybody else was involved. I wouldn't say Fleet White was involved in that. I can't quite see how Dan can say thet Gary was involved either.
I don't know what real evidence Kdogg has that his Gus suspect was ever involved in any OCCK murders. I still don't know if Gary is in prison, or out of prison, or what exactly Carl and Uncle Carl and Paul B have got to do with any murders.
Helen Dagner's John must be the prime suspect in the OCCK murders. John's alibi is suspect for a start. He said he was visiting his father in Florida at the time of the murders when his father didn't live in Florida, but in Chicago. John seems to have gone to live in Georgia for a few years and Georgia police don't seem to have any idea how many people John murdered when he lived there. I think John has had major heart surgery, so the murders my have stopped for a time.
I agree the Oakland County police suspect Norberg is a person of interest. There is no real evidence Norberg murdered anybody, except perhaps that he worked in the same area as Kimberly King was found murdered in 1979, two years after the OCCK murders.
A witness described seeing Jill Robinson between two rough looking men. Those men need to be identified. Other murder victims in that Michigan area seem to have been girl hitchhikers. The official line seems to be that there was no connection between Jane Allan's murder and the OCCK murders.
Henrietta, I am not Terri. And I don't know what pictures your talking about. I have asked Helen questions from time to time but for some reason she got upset with me with the last question I asked her. I then asked her to call me and she never did.

You asked: I don't know what real evidence Kdogg has that his Gus suspect was ever involved in any OCCK murders.

The answer is none. There is nothing linking Gus to the occk. The only real hard evidence I have is a black mail letter that someone wrote to Gus. The letter mentions killing kids. Which kids, I don't know.

You said: I still don't know if Gary is in prison, or out of prison, or what exactly Carl and Uncle Carl and Paul B have got to do with any murders.

Dan's Gary is not in prison. He lives a few blocks away from me. Uncle Carl is in prison and is being questioned in the occk. I dont know who Carl and Paul B are.

You said: Helen Dagner's John must be the prime suspect in the OCCK murders.

He is a very good suspect. But for some reason the police are looking into a couple of sicko's from Cass Corridor.

You said: I agree the Oakland County police suspect Norberg is a person of interest. There is no real evidence Norberg murdered anybody, except perhaps that he worked in the same area as Kimberly King was found murdered in 1979, two years after the OCCK murders.

Gus was Norbergs neighbor and the person I believe wrote the black mail letter. Norberg lived on Hupp street and Kim went missing from Dodge street the next block over from Hupp.

You said:The official line seems to be that there was no connection between Jane Allan's murder and the OCCK murders.

I believe that is because she was killed shortly after being abducted and left in another state.
nancy

AOL

#229 Mar 4, 2007
I GREW UP IN OAKLAND COUNTY, I WAS 15 DURRING THE TIME OF THESE KILLINGS. I REMEMBER THINKING BACK THEM THAT A MAN AND A WOMAN WERE THE KILLERS TOGETHER. A WOMAN TOOK CARE OF THESE KIDS, THE MAN KILLED THEM SO THEY WOULD NOT TALK. THE WOMAN LOVED KIDS BUT COULD NOT HAVE ANY OF HER OWN. THE MAN WAS NOT HER HUSBAND, BUT THEY BOTH WERE CHILD MOLESTERS, SO THAT WAS THEIR COMMON LINKTOGETHER, AND THEY KEEP IT A SECRET FOR ALL THESE YEARS. EVEN IF THERE NOT TOGETHER ANYMORE AS A TEEM.
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#230 Mar 4, 2007
Kdogg wrote:
<quoted text>
Henrietta, I am not Terri. And I don't know what pictures your talking about. I have asked Helen questions from time to time but for some reason she got upset with me with the last question I asked her. I then asked her to call me and she never did.
You asked: I don't know what real evidence Kdogg has that his Gus suspect was ever involved in any OCCK murders.
The answer is none. There is nothing linking Gus to the occk. The only real hard evidence I have is a black mail letter that someone wrote to Gus. The letter mentions killing kids. Which kids, I don't know.
How do we know that this supposed blackmail letter to Gus wan't a forgery in order to mislead the police? Has anybody like Dusak, document examiner at the U.S Secret Service ever made a report about that blackmail letter?

I can't quite see that one letter, that nobody knows who wrote, or if it's a forgery, is any real evidence that Gus had anything to do with the OCCK murders.
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#231 Mar 4, 2007
Kdogg wrote:
Another thing that gets me about Gary P is that he wants to commit suicide and shoots himself in the chest. Why not the head? And why try first aid in the car after shooting yourself?
I don't think there's any law that says that somebody who wants to commit suicide with a revolver must shoot himself in the head. I agree that it seems most people who shoot themselves like that do tend to shoot themselves in the mouth.

I haven't seen all the autopsy reports, and forensic reports, about that Pervinkler case. I think DumbFounded knows more about that case than I do.

From what I can gather, Pervinkler's body was found several weeks after his car was found near to the car. There seems to have been some blood spatter in the car. There was deep snow at the time the car was discovered but the body wasn't found immediately.

Perhaps he shot himself once in the car which wasn't fatal and again outside the car in order to finish himself off?

The Helgoth case in the Ramsey case does look like a murder made to look like a suicide to me. That Vincent Foster case looks like a murder made to look like a sucide to me. There was no blood on the gun and Foster was supposed to have shot himself in the mouth.

In the Helgoth case the private detective Ollie Gray said Helgoth was supposed to have shot himself left to right when he was right handed. Helgoth would have had to be a contortionist to achieve that angle of trajectory. The gun was found on the floor on the right side of the bed when by all the natural laws of physics and gravity the gun should have fallen on the left side of the bed.

This is a quote from an internet article about people shooting themselves in the chest:

"Gunshot wounds in the heart are frequent suicidal injuries, especially in men. Most of them are lethal, but some cases of survival due to immediate and proper surgical treatment are reported. However, survival without specific treatment is extremely rare."
Kdogg

Green Springs, OH

#232 Mar 4, 2007
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
<quoted text>
How do we know that this supposed blackmail letter to Gus wan't a forgery in order to mislead the police? Has anybody like Dusak, document examiner at the U.S Secret Service ever made a report about that blackmail letter?
I can't quite see that one letter, that nobody knows who wrote, or if it's a forgery, is any real evidence that Gus had anything to do with the OCCK murders.
Your right, the letter could very well be a forgery and nothing in the letter says anything about occk. The person who the family believes wrote the letter was questioned by police and denies writing the letter.
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#233 Mar 4, 2007
CandyO wrote:
I gather your post is referring to the Detroit News article obtained by Bill Gray of March 27, 1977. Danto does state that the "triggering" events were the december death of Judy Ferro and the January 1976 deaths of Cynthia C and Sheila S. Note the word TRIGGER - and this is not directed at you Kdogg, but Dan in Detroit. This letter was published after Timothy King's body was discovered and does not ever draw a link that the killer is one in the same.
This is the same issue that upped the reward to $50,000 for information leading to the arrest of the OCCK. So Dan, who has been notably absent since this Pervinkler information came out...if Gary asked you for a hair (pubic or otherwise) while all of this was going on and he was talking about all of this killing he was doing, why didn't you turn him in and try to collect the reward? It would have helped pay for college and there would still be some left over for your daughter's college too.
This is the same issue that contains a lengthy article about Tom Robinson's anger at LE for their lack of initiative and information sharing, "... I'd like to know where in the hell the coordination is in the investigation, the overview on all of the cases. Who knows which four cases will turn up the clue which will result in picking up the creep who is responsible for all of this." The article goes on to say that Robinson stated that task force officers from the tri-county area have not been shown reports from the Troy police Dept.[ the jurisdiction in which Jill was found.]
And, this thought that hasn't changed in 30's years and is still uttered by all of us who care," I'm sure there's something that's been reviewed already, maybe several times, that might be the key if it's looked at in a different light."
Kdogg seems to be doing a good job and I have the flu and have been sleeping for the last 5 hours. Why didn`t I say anything about gary pulling my hair out? I lived with my brother and he often watched tv with the sound off and listened to music. I only ever heard their was a hair on Tim King recently, when I had read that before I thought they were referring to the hair in kristine Mihelich mouth. A couple things that link Gary and Norberg are that the fire department records will prove that they came to Gary`s mothers house the same day Jane Allen was carbon monoxided, Jane was found tied with Norberg knots, Gary and Norberg grabbed Kim King when she went to use the phone across the street, then Norberg`s wife found Kristine Mihelich cross in a cigar box in Wyoming after Norberg`s death. Just as Gary had told me the peeling gold coating had been removed. This was confirned by Lt Anger that the coating is gone. If Gary`s not a child killer, why did his own sister turn him in as OCCK? If Helen truly believes that John done it, then why barrage this forum with all the fake IP`s, why try to stop Gary being further investigated, why try to tell everyone that I`m kdogg or Terri? How ridiculous since Helen obviously knows better.
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#234 Mar 4, 2007
Kdogg wrote:
<quoted text>
Henrietta, I am not Terri. And I don't know what pictures your talking about. I have asked Helen questions from time to time but for some reason she got upset with me with the last question I asked her. I then asked her to call me and she never did.
You asked: I don't know what real evidence Kdogg has that his Gus suspect was ever involved in any OCCK murders.
The answer is none. There is nothing linking Gus to the occk. The only real hard evidence I have is a black mail letter that someone wrote to Gus. The letter mentions killing kids. Which kids, I don't know.
You said: I still don't know if Gary is in prison, or out of prison, or what exactly Carl and Uncle Carl and Paul B have got to do with any murders.
Dan's Gary is not in prison. He lives a few blocks away from me. Uncle Carl is in prison and is being questioned in the occk. I dont know who Carl and Paul B are.
You said: Helen Dagner's John must be the prime suspect in the OCCK murders.
He is a very good suspect. But for some reason the police are looking into a couple of sicko's from Cass Corridor.
You said: I agree the Oakland County police suspect Norberg is a person of interest. There is no real evidence Norberg murdered anybody, except perhaps that he worked in the same area as Kimberly King was found murdered in 1979, two years after the OCCK murders.
Gus was Norbergs neighbor and the person I believe wrote the black mail letter. Norberg lived on Hupp street and Kim went missing from Dodge street the next block over from Hupp.
You said:The official line seems to be that there was no connection between Jane Allan's murder and the OCCK murders.
I believe that is because she was killed shortly after being abducted and left in another state.
You are aware that henrietta mentioned you by name right kdogg?
CandyO

Glen Burnie, MD

#235 Mar 4, 2007
Ok Dan - I am going to say this with sincerity - for both of us. I don't know if you are or aren't any of the following: Detroit Breakdown, Dan McGreen, Terri, DBCooper. My gut tells me that you are not Kdogg.

I can tell you wholly and completely that I do not live in OH, not on the border, not in the middle and not in southern OH. I am CandyO and yes, I have followed Helen's site for quite some time. That's it. So, if you expect me to believe that you are only Dan and DB is your daughter then why do you refuse to believe that I am only myself and not Helen or any of the others you have claimed I am.

I have huge questions about your Gary. But, I won't go through this back and forth if you refuse to believe anything I say. I don't know enough about your Gary to refuse you completely and the fact that I am interested enough to ask should tell you I haven't written your story off.

I have huge questions about your Gary - where he lives now, where he lived at the time, why he hasn't tried to keep you quiet? I have huge questions as to when you first contacted LE and what was their reaction?

After the recent postings concerning Gary Pervinkle, do you still believe your Gary murdered him? Do you think your Gary murdered the Lake City woman?
joejam

AOL

#236 Mar 4, 2007
DumbFounded wrote:
<quoted text>
joejam,
It is gone now thanks to Kdogg and DB making it a bash Helen site. You are correct that Gary did not do this and once and for all, that is going to be proven so none of you have to listen to it ever again.
I have a question for you joejam. Do you think it is in someone's right to fabricate a story about killing 5 innocent children for the sake of their own personal ego's? Also, if you can prove that it is fabricated, are you going to just sit back and allow these people to tarish the memories of 5 beautiful children that lost their lives so violently?
I do not think it is right. But I say if you ignore it, it will eventually go away. Let him go elsewhere. If no one responds to him, surely he'll leave. We all know it is fabricated here. Those children are loved and respected even though he does try to tarnish their memory.
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#237 Mar 4, 2007
CandyO wrote:
Ok Dan - I am going to say this with sincerity - for both of us. I don't know if you are or aren't any of the following: Detroit Breakdown, Dan McGreen, Terri, DBCooper. My gut tells me that you are not Kdogg.
I can tell you wholly and completely that I do not live in OH, not on the border, not in the middle and not in southern OH. I am CandyO and yes, I have followed Helen's site for quite some time. That's it. So, if you expect me to believe that you are only Dan and DB is your daughter then why do you refuse to believe that I am only myself and not Helen or any of the others you have claimed I am.
I have huge questions about your Gary. But, I won't go through this back and forth if you refuse to believe anything I say. I don't know enough about your Gary to refuse you completely and the fact that I am interested enough to ask should tell you I haven't written your story off.
I have huge questions about your Gary - where he lives now, where he lived at the time, why he hasn't tried to keep you quiet? I have huge questions as to when you first contacted LE and what was their reaction?
After the recent postings concerning Gary Pervinkle, do you still believe your Gary murdered him? Do you think your Gary murdered the Lake City woman?
I`m still sick but I`m trying to have these discussions because I believe that the truth needs to come out. Helen could have done this a year or more ago, but she chose not to. Put yourself in my shoes. I moved to Detroit after the first OCCK killing had already happened. My brother told me that a car similar to Gary`s had been spotted near the first OCCK abduction. I teased Gary that he must be the killer and I thought he was teasing in return telling me details of killings. Over the course of time he must have done that in the middle of some conversation 30 times. On the other behalf I suffered from a head wound do to an accident when I was 17 and I have never lied to anyone about that and have told police that, and that I had amnesia due to the accident. In early 2000 or so memories began returning about knowing Gary and related killers. Naturally it seemed like too much, but I wrote it all down as I remembered it. Then Paul B. joined with his ex friends Andy Trombley and Michael Willis helping them get revenge on Willis aunt McCracken for turning him into the police as a murderer. They sought to kill McCrackens daughter but instead killed Deanna Seifert grabbing the wrong girl by mistake. 4 people sined wwritten statements supporting that they had witnessd the killers cohorts asking me for my pubic hair and that we`d later been shot at. Since then I have relentlessly pursued my memories. I`ve found out that Gary`s sister turned him in as OCCK in 2000 and I`ve got a giy out in Ypsilanti who claims to have a grave in his yard where Gary says him and Paul put one. On the Internet I see the name Zarzicki that Paul kept saying kidnapped in Eastoint where Trombleys hung out. Where there`s smole there`s fire. I will pursue this, alone as I have, There`s something to this. Have I mixed together two of Gary`s stories about Ferro? Possibly. I recall Gary talking about putting him in the trunk and about pulling out the phone line. That`s all I can tell you.
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#239 Mar 4, 2007
joejam wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not think it is right. But I say if you ignore it, it will eventually go away. Let him go elsewhere. If no one responds to him, surely he'll leave. We all know it is fabricated here. Those children are loved and respected even though he does try to tarnish their memory.
Obviously IF Joejam could read she`d see that kdogg has verified with police that Gary`s own sister turned him in as a child serial killer. Joejam wanders back and forth saying you made it up, then I believe you, three times even offering to meet Dan someplace. She makes posts and then answers herself repeatedly. Obviously other things are discussed on the Jonbenet Ramsey thread than Jonbenet. What about the Anna Nicole thread, or the stock thread, or any of dozens. The point is that someone named as a serial killer by more than one person, one being his own sister, also says that he killed Jonbenet. Helen`s people are here, Kdogg`s here, Terri`s here, whether or not she`s really her possibly kdogg knows, she claims to have been attempted to be abducted near Saad`s sisters home when she was 12 on Dec 29, 1976. Saad being gary`s coworker who had the cottage Gary claimed to have kept the OCCK kids in. Kdogg have you really met Terri ???
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#245 Mar 4, 2007
Terri wrote:
Dan, aka Detroit Breakdown,
Quit saying your Gary tried to grab me !!
The Saad's I know have nothing to do with your Saad's. I SAID the Valanti's lived next door. One of the girls married a Saad, not yours. Her sister was married to Gary Pask, again, not related to the people you're talking about !!
It wasn't the same house or street and I was 11, not 12. Your Gary has nothing to do with who tried to grab me that day !
I ask you to keep my name out of your shit ! Then you get pissed when I say something negative about you ! Gee, I wonder why ? I AM NOT A PART OF YOUR CASE !! Is the brain damage Kelly posted you had true ??? IT'S NOT THE SAME SAAD'S ! Get it yet ?? Leave my name out of YOUR case !!
For one thing I don`t even know if you`re Helen or who. When I was talking to Kdogg about Saad you jumped in saying that your attacker had just left a house at/near the Saad`s. You send me emails with virus`s attached and then say you`re messing with Helen. You talk about Kelly and I ask who that is and by your next email you forget that you said Kelly. You used so many obscenities that your posts were all deleted. I don`t know who you are or care. Don`t call me and I WON`T ANSWER ANY MORE OF YOUR EMAILS. One time you tell me not to trust Kevin and the next email says don`t bother you and Kdogg when you keep emailing ME. Whenever Helen posted here the first time the very next day you posted saying Gary didn`t do it, then recently you claim you just found this site. Sorry Terri I got hit in the head by a truck. What`s your excuse?
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#250 Mar 4, 2007
Kdogg. Did the missing Lake City womans car disappear or just her?
DAN IN DETROIT

Rochester, MI

#252 Mar 4, 2007
Terri wrote:
Just putting my ass in here Dan, but why would you ask Kdogg a question when you never answered his about which detective contacted you ???
You e-mailed me that you weren't planning on answering him. Well ????
Ya, thought so.
Kdogg was mad because I put part of his real name in a post and because he lives in the general area of Gary`s house and kdogg has kids, so I contacted Topix and got his name removed. Now there`s another name on Henrietta thread and kdogg`s shooting himself in the foot. Not my fault this time. He had got mad about that and wasn`t answering then he answered. Hey I like kdogg fine and I`ve found him to be truthful and outspoken in what he thinks, but you told me that he said not to bother him or talk to him again. But then you also told me that he was a spy for Helen now. If he contacts me by email I`ll answer him. I don`t know anything yet anyway. Cops don`t work on weekends that much.
DAN IN DETROIT

Lakeland, MI

#259 Mar 5, 2007
Terri wrote:
Oh,
I see on another site that you contacted
Det.C. Williams ?
Ok. There you go Kdogg. Question answered.
Now we know which detective he drove crazy.
I don`t post on another site and I never spoke with Williams.
DumbFounded

AOL

#260 Mar 5, 2007
Kdogg wrote:
<quoted text>
If you really did have a copy of it you would be able to read that he does mention Judy the Redford babysitter, Sheila and Cindy. Either your lying or your lying. Check and Mate. Thank you for playing.
Nice job Kdogg!! It does seem that you can at times do your homework. Yes, I knew what the letter stated but dealing with the two of you and the fiction is at times hard to decipher if you have read something or not. It is nice to see you can print your proof for a change and not the he said, she said things....

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