The Oakland County Child Killer
DETROIT

Detroit, MI

#6727 Aug 11, 2011
Helen Dagner wrote:
<quoted text> Your wrong Dan-You started a Occk thread on the JBR forum-but it didn't go anywhere-so then you latched on to this one-Bewildered started this-after you,Terri and Kdogg tried to take over the Detroit Free Press forum-before I had it shut down. I'm glad he posted about this-as I meant to correct you the other day-when you were claiming credit for starting this forum
WRONG AGAIN HELEN
Helen Dagner

Petoskey, MI

#6728 Aug 11, 2011
DETROIT wrote:
<quoted text>WRONG AGAIN HELEN
Sorry Dan-I hate to say this as it always sounds so self serving -But I'm never wrong -when it comes to details-about anything that the people who post here have to say-
Les

Warren, MI

#6729 Aug 11, 2011
DETROIT wrote:
<quoted text>Green means that you have joined Topix and are a registered member. You can then email other members. Otherwise it stays blue.
You call it blue. I call it gray.
Are you telling me that you are the only registered member?
and you can email any other member or any poster?
Verlander won again tonight. Yeah.
Helen Dagner

Petoskey, MI

#6730 Aug 11, 2011
So Dan are you the moderator of this forum?I ask you that because of the judging marks-Someone is changing them-and how I know that is because-no one would give you or Les the good markings that you appear to be getting-and I know for a fact that I judged some of your and Les post-and trust me when I say-I did not give you the marks that appear in the judging box-...Or is Just Thinking the moderator? Who ever it is-must be a real bottom feeder -if they have to even manipulate the judging-that is low real low...and stupid-do you think others don't notice this? lol....Your all so deceptive over here...

Since: Mar 07

Detroit, MI

#6731 Aug 11, 2011
Helen Dagner wrote:
So Dan are you the moderator of this forum?I ask you that because of the judging marks-Someone is changing them-and how I know that is because-no one would give you or Les the good markings that you appear to be getting-and I know for a fact that I judged some of your and Les post-and trust me when I say-I did not give you the marks that appear in the judging box-...Or is Just Thinking the moderator? Who ever it is-must be a real bottom feeder -if they have to even manipulate the judging-that is low real low...and stupid-do you think others don't notice this? lol....Your all so deceptive over here...
There are actually only a few people posting on this forum, 15 at most. many posters have 5 or more hats. One of them is a Topix Moderator who often judges people NEGATIVE. Some regular posters are sick of it and when they see her negatives, vote several times until it`s changed to a positive. That`s what I`ve recently learned that votes caan be chaanged by more votes on the opposing side. That`s the way Topix works. You`re wrong though, you came to this forum after I started it here. I came here after OCCK group closed. Formerly there were many people on here who believed the ramseys innocent and I asked them if it was o.k. to start the OCCK thread here. Regular posters who`ve been here forever would know this.
Helen Dagner

Petoskey, MI

#6732 Aug 11, 2011
Dan,You did start a forum here-but it was not this one and it did just have 12 posts on it-Look I could go into my files and find all of this-but it is not worth it to me to look-You know Dan-That I would never post anything on the Internet that I could not back up with documentation-that is why I always smile when one of you-try to challenge me-this is not my first trip to a rodeo -

Since: Mar 07

Detroit, MI

#6733 Aug 11, 2011
Helen Dagner wrote:
<quoted text> Your wrong Dan-You started a Occk thread on the JBR forum-but it didn't go anywhere-so then you latched on to this one-Bewildered started this-after you,Terri and Kdogg tried to take over the Detroit Free Press forum-before I had it shut down. I'm glad he posted about this-as I meant to correct you the other day-when you were claiming credit for starting this forum
This IS THE JBR forum. This IS the only OCCK thread that we`ve ever had. I didn`t try to take over any Free Press Forum Kdogg threatened to throw you in the river so you got the OCCK group disbanded since that was considered a threat. You were posting on the Indian forum and you offered me my own thread until I posted about how ludicrous your John with 2 passport idea was, then you deleted my thread. you claim to have banned me, but in case you forgot, I posted after that, so you`re wrong again. What happened was i called you a squaw and the AMERICAN INDIANS DIDN`T LIKE THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE SUPPORTING THEM!!!lol
Les

Warren, MI

#6734 Aug 11, 2011
When I graduated from high school I had saved up enough money to pay cash for an almost new mobile home in a mobile home park. It gave me a great start on my career because my living expenses were low and I was able to save enough money to eventually pay cash for every home I bought with the exception of the last home in which I mortgaged 100%.
Despite the fact that I randomly met my wife Jackie in Warren and despite being raised in the thumb I was shocked at how many people we both knew . My sister had dated my sister in laws current boyfriend Jerry Bologna. They had met hundreds of miles from Warren. I had dated one of Jackie's friends Delores Dorte. We met hundreds of miles away from Warren. One of my mother in law's cousins was a friend of my mother. One of my friends was Jackie's first cousin.
Anyways I ended up selling the mobile home to Gary in 1977. He seemed to relish telling people he owned his own home but there was a problem. He could not sleep there. Every night he went back to his mother's house on Studebaker and slept in his own bed. I have no clue what he was thinking.
After Gary died, I discovered that Gary never put the mobile home in his name. I gave the money back to his mother that Gary had paid me.
I decided to keep the mobile home as a home away from home. I occassionally rented it out to friends. Eventually I moved my family from Warren to Sterling Heights and Sterling Heights to Birch Run in Saginaw County. I had a beautiful four bedroom secluded brick home.
We had four acres of lawn. Four car garage and a pole barn that was big enough to hold my motor home, boats,riding lawn mowers and quad runners.I had a pool put in immediately after buying the house. The real estate woman could not comprehend that I was paying cash for my home and kept putting mortgage clauses on my offer sheets. The kids always got a car on their 16th birthday. My children got birthday parties for their "half birthdays". That is the date of their choosing. My children had their own computers before any of their friends had one. Their homework was superior because they had access to the internet to look up anything they needed to know. We had huge parties and family reunions at my home.
My point in telling you all this is it was extremely important for me to be there for my children if that will help you understand why coming forward was extremely difficult for me. Life as I knew it would go down the drain and it has happened exactly like I knew it would. Jackie went on a rampage of destruction after we came forward. Her reaction was delayed a couple of years but it happened as I expected.
Les

Warren, MI

#6735 Aug 11, 2011
Meanwhile Jackie and I separated. Not legally and did not tell the children. I bought Jackie a double wide near Saginaw and I paid all of her bills and kept her in plenty of spending money.
I moved back into my mobile home in Warren and I started partying like it was 1999. I was spending money like a drunken sailor. I was dating seven nights a week and living off my savings. The plan was to have a good time before everything exploded.
I had loaned my brother $45,000 and he had not paid me back a penny. I let him stay at my home rent and food free. The plan was to not give him any excuses to not pay me back. He had a great job as a welder but every payday was the same thing. He spent his money like a drunken sailor.
He complained that his bedroom was too small so we tore out a closet. In the course of tearing out the closet between the two inch thick wall, I found evidence that Gary was the OCCK. This time it implied that some one else knew. Mean while Jackie had decided she had enough of the open marriage s..t and violently stormed back into my daily life. I hid the evidence from her because I was pretty sure she would destroy it if she saw it. I set up an appointment with Detective Gray to take it to him but when my appointment day came I could not find my evidence. Gray was really pissed that I could not deliver the evidence to him and used that as the reason to halt his investigation of Gary despite the fact he had a long list of witnesses that he had not yet interviewed. Jackie swore she did not know anything about the evidence.
A couple of months later in a fit of rage Jackie bragged that she had ran across and destroyed my evidence. I called Kdogg and handed the phone to Jackie. She defiantly told him she destroyed the evidence.
Les

Warren, MI

#6736 Aug 11, 2011
The first half appeared and disappeared after I posted the second half. Hope it comes back.
Les

Warren, MI

#6737 Aug 11, 2011
If I dare repost it both of them will come back.

Since: Mar 07

Detroit, MI

#6738 Aug 11, 2011
Les wrote:
Meanwhile Jackie and I separated. Not legally and did not tell the children. I bought Jackie a double wide near Saginaw and I paid all of her bills and kept her in plenty of spending money.
I moved back into my mobile home in Warren and I started partying like it was 1999. I was spending money like a drunken sailor. I was dating seven nights a week and living off my savings. The plan was to have a good time before everything exploded.
I had loaned my brother $45,000 and he had not paid me back a penny. I let him stay at my home rent and food free. The plan was to not give him any excuses to not pay me back. He had a great job as a welder but every payday was the same thing. He spent his money like a drunken sailor.
He complained that his bedroom was too small so we tore out a closet. In the course of tearing out the closet between the two inch thick wall, I found evidence that Gary was the OCCK. This time it implied that some one else knew. Mean while Jackie had decided she had enough of the open marriage s..t and violently stormed back into my daily life. I hid the evidence from her because I was pretty sure she would destroy it if she saw it. I set up an appointment with Detective Gray to take it to him but when my appointment day came I could not find my evidence. Gray was really pissed that I could not deliver the evidence to him and used that as the reason to halt his investigation of Gary despite the fact he had a long list of witnesses that he had not yet interviewed. Jackie swore she did not know anything about the evidence.
A couple of months later in a fit of rage Jackie bragged that she had ran across and destroyed my evidence. I called Kdogg and handed the phone to Jackie. She defiantly told him she destroyed the evidence.
fINE, SINCE SHE ALREADY LEFT AND since the evidence is gone, now you can tell us what iy was!!!
Les

Warren, MI

#6739 Aug 11, 2011
DETROIT wrote:
<quoted text>fINE, SINCE SHE ALREADY LEFT AND since the evidence is gone, now you can tell us what iy was!!!
I hope against all hope is that Jackie lied about destroying it. I am hoping that the task force decides to pursue the matter that she will cooperate with them and hand it over.

When we divorced, Jackie drew a strong line between me and her family. On her side of the line they are vehemently protecting their turf. Jackie would have lost her family if she did not take their side. For example cleaning out the garage attic before the task force arrived to search it. The task force found evidence that had been thrown in the trash but not taken to the road. The task force can't blame me for that blunder. They had lots of time to follow up on my tip.
But what other evidence was found before Gray got there that was not put in trash cans? How much evidence did the family hide before and after his death? Comments made indicate they knew Gary did something to bring family shame. I am sure Poloroid pictures were found among Gary's belongings. He was very big on Poloroids.

When I first presented my evidence to Jackie what I knew she acted like she already knew Gary was the OCCK and that she had been keeping it a secret from me.
Because they may polygraph several people about this evidence that I am referring to I believe the task force would say that by making the information public would hinder their ability to conduct these tests.
My heart tells me it is OK to tell you but intutition tells me not to.

Kdogg knows what it is and he knows Jackie was feeling victorious when she told him she destroyed it. Kdogg evidently feels it should not be public because he has not told anyone.
Helen Dagner

Petoskey, MI

#6740 Aug 11, 2011
DETROIT wrote:
<quoted text>This IS THE JBR forum. This IS the only OCCK thread that we`ve ever had. I didn`t try to take over any Free Press Forum Kdogg threatened to throw you in the river so you got the OCCK group disbanded since that was considered a threat. You were posting on the Indian forum and you offered me my own thread until I posted about how ludicrous your John with 2 passport idea was, then you deleted my thread. you claim to have banned me, but in case you forgot, I posted after that, so you`re wrong again. What happened was i called you a squaw and the AMERICAN INDIANS DIDN`T LIKE THAT BECAUSE YOU WERE SUPPORTING THEM!!!lol
Dan None of this is true-don't you ever get tired of making things up? Your right back to talking like a moron-but I guess that is something you can not help-
Les

Warren, MI

#6741 Aug 12, 2011
DETROIT wrote:
<quoted text>If that`s the case, why then did gary m. ask me to write a letter lying about where kim King`s body was? I refused to write the letter and he wrote it himself in a sloppy fashion and mailed it in deer season from northern michigan or the U.P.
I feel like a fool even responding to your question but why would your Gary need to lie about where Kimberly King was buried if the police have no clue where to look in the first place? Are you saying he wanted to be a suspect? You have a fasinating mind. Are you a handicapped person prisoner to your own home?
Les

Warren, MI

#6742 Aug 12, 2011
Helen Dagner wrote:
So Dan are you the moderator of this forum?I ask you that because of the judging marks-Someone is changing them-and how I know that is because-no one would give you or Les the good markings that you appear to be getting-and I know for a fact that I judged some of your and Les post-and trust me when I say-I did not give you the marks that appear in the judging box-...Or is Just Thinking the moderator? Who ever it is-must be a real bottom feeder -if they have to even manipulate the judging-that is low real low...and stupid-do you think others don't notice this? lol....Your all so deceptive over here...
Helen, I have never paid any attention to the judge marks. I have never judged anyone's posts. But now that you mentioned it I have been laughing my as off going back and reading them. You are right someone must be maniulating them.
They follow a definite pattern that shows readers have alot of respect for Dan's posts. All you have to do is agree with Dan and you will get great marks. My only question is: Is it possible for him to change them?

Since: Aug 11

Location hidden

#6743 Aug 12, 2011
To MyBrothersKeeper;

I want to thank you for all the historic info you've posted in this forum. It has been extremely useful to me and no doubt to many others.

I have chosen this username to emphasize that I have the greatest respect for victims and their families. Some things need to be discussed in a dispassionate manner, but please never think that I might lack empathy or compassion for any victimized persons.

I'm sure you are aware that the Fox Island pedos and also Busch-Greene, forced/coerced their older victims (13-16) to victimize their younger victims and made photos or films of that activity. Imagine that I might be a family member of one of those teens, or a police investigator, a therapist/counsellor, a child welfare worker, etc., back in that day, and this teen has with great difficulty just confessed to me the details of his victimization, including being photographed assaulting younger children. This teen was given alcohol and/or drugs prior to the sexual activity, and was severely traumatized by the abuse he suffered, so his memory of these events is confused and unclear.

Fearing the worst, I show the teen a picture of a boy who was kidnapped and later found murdered. "Was this boy involved?" I ask, but the teen can only say that he can't be sure either way. I'm now confronted with the possibility that this teen, who clearly cannot be the OCCK himself, MIGHT have been filmed or photographed sexually assaulting a murdered child! What would I do? That information would be of the utmost importance to the OCCK investigation, and I would have a moral obligation - a duty to the deceased victim and his family - to make this known to those investigators. But I have a vision, wherein this teen boy who is himself a victim, ends up being convicted of the OCCK murders after the hypothetical photos are discovered on the basis of those photos, and is either put to death or imprisoned for the rest of his life. I might have faith that "the system" would perceive this teen to be a victim and not a perpetrator, or I might not have faith in that. I MIGHT decide not to take that gamble, and set about doing whatever I might be capable of doing to ensure the OCCK investigation never targets this teen - even if that means sabotaging any possibility of the OCCK investigation ever uncovering and prosecuting the REAL killer.

Now, imagine that their could be dozens of these teen boy victim/victimizers, and dozens of self-appointed guardians of their interests, independently interfering with OCCK investigations out of fear that the wrong person could end up convicted of those crimes.
just-thinking

Jackson, MI

#6744 Aug 12, 2011
I certainly have no interest in moderating any forum or manipulating those silly icons. I think it is evident what is going on. In fact Dan told you how he changes the marks. I prefer to stay out of the peripheral discussions. I am fine just reading and have little to add besides an occasional question. I thought the judging icons were harmless previously, but now I see them as a distraction and I move that serious posters ignore them altogether. Why have one more thing to argue over, especially something as petty as the little symbols?
just-thinking

Jackson, MI

#6745 Aug 12, 2011
Respect, that many people working independently to saboutage an investigation would, in my estimation, have the opposite effect.
mybrotherskeeper

United States

#6746 Aug 12, 2011
withgreatrespect, I get it. This is all such an immense tragedy. So many victims, living and dead. A who walks? The people with money. The horror of this entire thing is compounded a million times over when you consider the massive number of victims of pedophiles, the places held in society by some of these men, and the fact that they could use money and the legal system to keep them from ever answering for their crimes.

I read police documents describing the very scenario you use as an example, using the very words of a teenager who, during the time period of these crimes, was forced to do what you describe. That person, and anyone like him, is a victim as well. So, I understand your comments.

But where are and were the people close to the actual killer(s) and their adult accomplices who KNEW or seriously suspected their relative, friend, coworker was the child killer or was involved in pedophelia and child porn? Covering their own asses, their family name, not protecting a minor who was a victim of these animals. Those kind never step forward when it can do any good--if at all. Someone in the position of learning about such s teenager, as you describe, is in a totally different spot. If the teenager knew who was involved in the kidnapping and murder of children, 35 years later I would think there would be a way to get that info on the table without pinning the crimes or an obstruction of justice charge on the teenager. But I can't fault your logic that the police may not use their discretion wisely. Especially in his case.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

JonBenet Ramsey Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
What are all the old posters? Capricorn, Dan, T... 44 min MakeTheArrest 16
"You will WITHDRAW $118,000.00 dollars from you... (Jul '06) 2 hr Jolamom 72
I hope a dingo doesn't eat your baby 11 hr MakeTheArrest 5
ICU2 's Child Trafficking (Dec '14) 13 hr icu2 316
New movie on the JonBenet Ramsey case 13 hr berrytea333 106
Suspect Randy Simons! (Dec '07) 13 hr Blue Sage 152
Do you think that... 15 hr Blue Sage 253
More from around the web