The Oakland County Child Killer

Since: Mar 07

Detroit, MI

#5949 May 27, 2011
Helen Dagner wrote:
Your right I am excited about your news on the Smiley Face Killer--have you called ch-4 yet-? They have already worked with sources that are far less credible then your story why don't you give them a call....
Channel 4 worked with someone who wasn`t credible. Really. When were YOU on there with your Dear John story? LOL
Helen Dagner

Ludington, MI

#5950 May 27, 2011
lol-that was a good one Dan! Now I'm going to be very busy for the next few weeks-putting the story on disc-so I won't be over here posting-just thought I would mention you didn't think you had run me take care-H

Detroit, MI

#5951 May 29, 2011
Helen Dagner wrote:
I see by the judging -that we have some sore losers over here at Topix and I under stand how you would think this is it is all about the child victims...Which never get mention on this site...yes,it must seem like something very foreign over your more into the cass corridor and Fox Island crap-that has absolutely nothing to do with the murder of these children!...Look you only have 8 readers over here max on a good day as my reports show-So it is not going to bother me one Iota,to not inform you when new Videos are put up-Thank god google Loves me and the memory of these children...Will get the real story out -despite your opposition-we have for 20 years and it will always be about the Oakland County Child Victims-not sexual predator
So, who is the winner ? There's a winner ?? Does it bring the kids back or put the mostly dead killers in jail ? Is it contest of who reads the most on which site ? Google loves people ? It's hard to talk about the victims now ? We knew they WERE raped :( That does make it a sex crime a pedophile or group of. The videos are of that old tape.....with old pictures on it. But, it's not really worth a whole lot in 2011. This deaths are connected to Busch and and maybe, Gunnels. So, your comments --? No Iota ? Well, that sort of lets the families who post here, that you really don't care ?
Yes, it's about the families at this point. Yes, the killer was a sexual predator..........
This post is full of hate and spite.--- And for no reason that I can see.

Detroit, MI

#5952 May 29, 2011
As to some above posts ?
Well, that's easy.
Channel 4 got a true story. Simple.
There's a DNA match to Gunnels. Fact
First ever match in the case. Fact
I had been writing the man, Gunnels. Fact
We talked on the phone also. FACT
I did upset me to think Gunnels might have been with Kristine and why ? Fact
So, the news people did their jobs. Facts are out there. They plan to continue, I hope.
Gary will never be charged with anything. He did nothing. So........
I don't picture The John group on tv any time soon.
I also think it's.....a sorry situation that you felt you and Danny had to post together ? Who can not laugh at those remarks ?--- And you didn't talk to Pat.
You are of no worry to me. You're sad person.
You're desperate at this point ? Why I don't know or care ? You want to empty this board, keep others from posting. Not going to happen. There's here, other places.....I know whats been said about this issue here. So, if the people who won the right to all those papers don't post ? You'll know nothing. Nothing new. It may end up like that ? Just for some sanity ?

Well, I wait and see if the trash gets taken out.
I'll look every few days....or less
I'm tired.....good night to the rest of you :)

Jackson, MI

#5953 May 30, 2011
I think Lilly's book was and is very important. So what if it isn't exactly on the mark. It is well sourced and shows clear and new thinking, which is hard to come by. Don't be discouraged, Cody. You have done lots of important work and few other people are willing to go to the lengths that you do to find and preserve information. You guys spotted Gunnel's name right away when it started popping up with Busch and Greene. I hope somebody is still shaking Bennett's tree. What I am stuck thinking right now, whether I'm right or wrong, is that this involved several people with different jobs to do or maybe each job fulfilled their individual needs or perverted fantasies whether sexual or not. If there were five people; say for instance 1 lure, 1 grabber/driver, 1 artist/photographer (could also be caretaker), 1 killer, 1 dumper. All perverts, except for the artist who is unstable and has different deeper needs to satisfy here. Thinking along the lines of what Lilly's old mob source said, that just like in any business the black market has a service for each need, Insurance, protection, delivery. etc. If 5 people (or whatever number, I can't get 555 out of my head and Helen saying John said a cult did this) are all motivated, have different jobs, different behaviors, different appearances, etc. then none of the clues would fit together. So they would each possibly be linked in one way or another circumstancially, but the mix of clues would lead in different directions. I know it is just one more wild idea in 3 decades of theorizing, but this case seems to hit the wall sometimes. For my theory to fit in any form there has to be something to link the monsters together, just one person or place or event. I know many people don't like the idea of OCCK, Cass, and Fox Island being thought of as one case or related, but when Fox Island stopped operating where did the customers go? Did they scatter or go home? Presumably many went back to their home city with the outlet for their sick desires ruined a whole bunch of demand is suddenly walking around with little supply. One can imagine what went on on North Fox Island was probably the worst of the worst. Where would a sicko go to find this again? Flying up to a deserted Island in the middle of a great lake to systematically abuse children is a very extreme length to go to. What did these extreme perverts do after this? Maybe the cases are not one in the same, but they are related by time, place, and type.

Royal Oak, MI

#5954 May 30, 2011
Thanks, "Always" thinking......that needs to be your name by the way.
I agree with your post. Many men could be have been involved. For sure not a "single" person.
Maybe your hunch on 555 is right ?
I can't picture one or two men doing this and keeping it quiet ? They like to brag ?
Maybe Busch and McKinney were running their mouths ? Lamborgine is alive, so is Hastings and others. I'm not saying they are or aren't involved because I have no idea ?
Lilly's book has a ton of accurate information.
Enough to where she almost got hurt really bad on a few occasions. That's scary ?? I still wonder who it was ? She's thinks the Cass crew ? Possible ?? The church people are still alive. Then Bobbie Moore had a place down there......most of them are dead. Then Fox Island ? I would be afraid of them, big time afraid.
Busch was involved with the four kids. We know that from the dog hairs and gold fibers. So, he was there somewhere during this. Gunnels is another form of proof. It just connects Busch even more. I think you're right about the many connections. Where did the customers go when Fox Island crashed ? Why did many of the suspects die ?
I'm very curious as to what else they'll find - paper work wise on this case. DNA since 2009 ? Come on now ? I have to wonder if they really did look at the other suspects harder that what we know ? By that I mean are there any more DNA matches we don't know of ? Animal fur, carpet ?
The news is exposing it, LE is still trying to hide it. So, this leaves the families to solve it ??:(
I hope your ideas keep flowing.

United States

#5955 May 31, 2011
justthinking: YES YES YES.

Royal Oak, MI

#5956 Jun 2, 2011
Thinking about stuff already said.....
Cass crew ? Lawson and Lamborgine are alive - why ?
Bob Moore is dead, as is Bo, Hoj, others ?
Redmond is free in California.
Lamborgine had left for Ohio.
Lawson was in jail for murder, not the rapes.
Greene is dead....Busch is dead....
Alan is dead :( Was that really a suicide ?
Or was he killed for naming names ?? He was a victim/lure.
That one cop killed himself ? Name...I'll remember at 3 a.m.
Bruce Pierce was killed. His killer is dead now.
He was from the Cass.
Who's alive ? The kids who testified against Lamborgine ? And - Gunnels ?
Who else ? Not many ? Good reason to stay quiet ? Maybe ?
Lilly was attacked ??:(
I don't know what to think....

Tarpon Springs, FL

#5957 Jun 3, 2011
Ironically, quite a few "one time" suspects are also dead. Todd Warzecha, David Norberg, and Michael Dean Grant come to mind.

There are only two reasons that make sense as to why Lamborgine would keep his mouth shut. 1) He's afraid to talk which would imply the killer/s can reach him in Prison. Or 2) He really doesn't know anything and was afraid a poly would implicate him in other crimes. Lawson sang like a canary, if his information was any threat, wouldn't you think he would be dead by now too?

Is the cop you're thinking of the guy by the name of Marty? I don't really know anything about him.

Then you have the task force, Robertson, Tobin, Danto, Kriesse...they are all dead too.

Gee, maybe LE should just sit on this new evidence for another 6 years (News of DNA broke in 2005!) and see how many more suspects or potential witnesses they can lose in the meantime. And they wonder why the families are so very fed up!

Jackson, MI

#5958 Jun 3, 2011
Crime scenes seem to be passing by too. We all know about the house on Ess Lake now that it is gone.

Tarpon Springs, FL

#5959 Jun 3, 2011
Busch should have been in jail when Tim was taken, he was let out a $1,000 bond. Nice huh? And what kind of back country politics were at play when the local cops didn't bother to investigate a known pedophile with a kid who looked just like Tim? Perhaps the icing on the cake though is the fact they have known for 6 years about the DNA! Had they moved a little faster maybe that cottage wouldn't have been torn down and the witness would still be alive.

Michigan LE owes it to the King family (and the others) to either solve this case or at the very least, rule out Busch.

Royal Oak, MI

#5960 Jun 3, 2011
Agree will all above.
This "new" DNA source on the shirt ?
Well, how long have they known it was there ?
It's weak ? Does that come from age or because it was a small hair ? Maybe root ? I don't know, that's why I'm asking ?
What else do they have ?
They're working so hard on not solving it ?
So, was the Gunnels hair even on her shirt ?
Maybe they want to blame Busch and close the case out ? There's not enough to charge Gunnels with a crime ? If the was, they wouldn't have let him out on parole ? They said they Moved him to Michigan after the DNA matched the one source. But, why ?
Was he interviewed by LE ? How well and how many times ?
You know Keeper said it too - if the DNA had matched any of the suspects, they'd say the case was solved. That little DNA would have made Det. Anger so happy had it been a match to Norberg.
Legally, Gunnels can keep his mouth shut unless he's charged with something. Then his lawyer will talk for him. So, maybe this is LE's way of solving the case, by choosing to name Busch, and using that kid for proof ? But, they won't charge him with anything.
I don't like that on many levels ??
I agree with Just-thinking. There's more than one man involved and I don't think all of them are dead or in prison. So, I don't think they can get away with using Gunnels to name Busch, to expect the families to "understand" that they did their best.
Lawson named Bob Moore as the occk. He didn't even know the guy had been dead for 15 years ? He's no threat to the big guys. He was a threat to the kids.
Lamborgine might know something ? He's quiet.
Yeah, they need to look at the old suspects again.
That cop, Marty ? That was the suspect in the boy scouts death in 1977. If we're talking about the same Marty. This man is free.
There was a cop who killed himself in Oakland County. I don't remember his name ?
I wonder if he left a note ? How did he die ?
One bullet to the head or many - by himself ??
Gunnels is a street kid with a drug problem. If he dies no one will look into it or care ? How easy of a kill is that ? Needle in the arm ? "Oh, he was using again" ??? No more Gunnels.
I don't think he'll talk unless he's charged.
He says he 100% innocent...all the time. Maybe he is ? But, if the hair is real, he was near Kris at some point. He needs to give names as to who else was there ? Cover his azz and uncover the others. But, I don't think he will.

Royal Oak, MI

#5961 Jun 3, 2011
That was to say -- I agree with all above.
I'm tired..

Tarpon Springs, FL

#5962 Jun 3, 2011

The problem with Gunnels DNA "match" is that its mitochondrial DNA. This could mean that it was in fact his hair, or it could be another relative, mitochondrial DNA is passed down through the maternal line in a family. Without more proof, they don't have anything to charge him with.

Maybe LE needs to hire a genealogist to find out how many of Gunnels distant cousins show up in those 20,000 + tips.

Royal Oak, MI

#5963 Jun 3, 2011
Yeah, it's weak.
Gunnels never talks about relatives ?
He has a sister. But, he never said he was there with anyone he's related to ?
Just that Busch's nephews sold him out.
He's an angry man. Doesn't trust anyone.
He's still working on staying clean.
I know he tested positive for coke not too long ago.
I hope he can still make a life for himself ?
Not much of a chance if he keeps using.
I'm trying to look at life from his prospective ?
But, I can't. I don't know what he's thinking about ? He's 49 and has been in trouble more than a few times in his life. He's trying to stay sober. He's going to church. But, what happens when he tries to get a job ? He has a record and now people know his face in connection with this case ? So, where does that put him ?
And if he does know something, who does he trust ? He's not a big fan of the police....will his lawyer really give a shiz ? No.

Royal Oak, MI

#5964 Jun 3, 2011
I know you were joking about the cousins....

Tarpon Springs, FL

#5965 Jun 4, 2011
cody wrote:
I know you were joking about the cousins....
Actually, I'm not. If you have a sister, your sister's children and your children should share the same mitochondrial DNA. If your Grandmother has a sister who had a direct female descendant line, than they would all share that same dna too. Now, your Uncle's children would not share that same dna because it's only passed down through the female line.

Royal Oak, MI

#5966 Jun 4, 2011
That is interesting.
So, they have Gunnels DNA -(mito)
It was a match.
But, no one else's ?
Can they attempt to make the DNA evidence on him stronger ? I'm thinking not. It's been a match for two years.
I still wonder what this means for him and the case ?
Maybe LE is looking for more victims ? Looking for more lures ? Check their DNA ?
Check McKinney's too.
They don't seem to be moving ?

Naperville, IL

#5967 Jun 6, 2011
Not. Going. Away.

34, 35-year-old cases and we are not moving to the back of the line again.

Time's up. Put your pencils down and let's see what you've got.

Naperville, IL

#5968 Jun 7, 2011
A cold case is solved by going back to the very beginning.

Very beginning? Chris Busch, Greg Green, John Hastings, John McKinney. All on the radar screen early on. Don't complain now about needing more time to pull this together.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

JonBenet Ramsey Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Discussion of the note in the June 1998 interviews 16 min Fr_Brown 234
What DID you find? 11 hr Rangette 4
SBTC--Victory (Apr '15) 12 hr MakeTheArrest 117
Burke Said (Feb '15) Wed Just Wondering 25
Jeffrey MacDonald Is Guilty (Sep '08) Tue JTF 7,611
ICU2 's Child Trafficking (Dec '14) Oct 6 ICU2 272
Was Burke coached in any way? Oct 6 TheJam83 5
More from around the web