The Oakland County Child Killer

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Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#13 Feb 15, 2007
DB
Your comments are incorrect. No one wore an orange an pink top. Ms. Dagner has stated that her suspect told her one of the girls was wearing black pants with orangish pink appliques.
Jill Robinson's bike was not completely repainted.

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Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#15 Feb 15, 2007
Perhaps when you refer to denim you are speaking of Jill's backpack and not Kristine's pants? Kristine's pants are the ones that were black with orange and pink dots.

I have a very specific interview with each girl's mother that states what they were wearing when they left the house. However, of what was released to the media, Kristine's pants were not described. It is interesting to note Ms Dagner's description of Kristine's pants as it hauntingly matches what I know to be true.
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

#16 Feb 15, 2007
Forgive my ignorance, but why hasn't this murderer been caught yet?
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

#27 Feb 15, 2007
Benjamin wrote:
Perhaps when you refer to denim you are speaking of Jill's backpack and not Kristine's pants? Kristine's pants are the ones that were black with orange and pink dots.
I have a very specific interview with each girl's mother that states what they were wearing when they left the house. However, of what was released to the media, Kristine's pants were not described. It is interesting to note Ms Dagner's description of Kristine's pants as it hauntingly matches what I know to be true.
Surely if Ms. Dagner has a son who is a police officer, and she also has a daughter who is a detective-sergeant, as Ms. Dagner has said on this Topix forum, then Ms Dagner might possibly have had some previous inside confidential police information about the description of Kristine's pants?

There was enough leaking of confidential information in the Ramsey case by Steve Thomas to make me realize that sort of thing does go on.

I agree that Detroit Breakdown can be a bit short on hard facts. I still think Detroit Breakdown's hunches, and his knowledge about suspicious activities by Gary, should be thoroughly and properly investigated.

Gary's DNA like Fleet White's DNA, seems to be a bit of a mystery. There has been no official report ever made public that either of these two characters has ever been DNA tested that I know about. Just to say that they 'obviously' have been tested simply isn't good enough.

Does anybody know if Gary is a pedophile, or has ever been in a pedo ring, for a start?
abc

Laura, IL

#41 Feb 15, 2007
I am sick of this bickering. Going back to an Oakland County Child Killer site that doesn't play this gave before I have a breakdown myself.

Ciao!
Helen Dagner

AOL

#42 Feb 15, 2007
Amen!
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

#43 Feb 15, 2007
I don't like getting involved in this OCCK case, mainly because I don't know anything about it.

It seems as though the internet forums on this OCCK case are more unfriendly and vicious than even the Dr Jeffrey MacDonald case forums, or the JonBenet case forums.

It seems from what Helen Dagner has said previously on the internet, and what Detroit Breakdown has said on this Topix forum, that neither has a high regard for the abilities of the Michigan police for detecting difficult murders.

It seems Helen Dagner is, or was, married to a police officer. Helen Dagner seems to suspect somebody called John. My only concern about Helen Dagner's information is, if she would swear to God that the details of the crimes she says came from John, didn't in fact come from inside information from her police contacts.

Detroit Breakdown is suspicious of Gary and he doesn't seem to be the only person suspicious of Gary. My only reservation there is, as in the Ramsey case, can Detroit Breakdown back up his suspicions with evidence, and not just opinions?

There seems to be a senior policeman on the case who is suspicious of a dead man called Norberg . That dead man was found with a cross that came from one of the victims, which I agree is suspicious.

I would be interested in knowing if Fleet White was anywhere near Detroit in 1976. I accept i don't have a shred of evidence to back up any suspicions there.

This is a bit of background information about the case from an internet article:

The Babysitter

"During the winter months of 1976 and 1977, a child killer roamed the streets of Oakland County, Michigan; and families who moved northward out of Detroit seeking safer neighborhoods became frightened of the predator who invaded their comfortable suburbs.

Four children were seemlessly abducted from public areas, without any indication to passersby that a child was being taken against his or her will.

Initially the murders were not immediately connected because both the victim selection and manner of death differed. However, all too soon it became clear to investigators that one-by-one children had been stolen from the streets, held as living captives, were well cared for, murdered, then openly displayed alongside Oakland County roadways awaiting discovery.

Three of the victims had been smothered, the other had been shot. Part of the killer's ritual included re-dressing his victims just prior or just after their deaths. While there was no evidence of sexual assault on the female victims, both male victims had been sodomized.

As a result of the killer apparently taking care of the children prior to murdering them, his moniker grimly became "The Babysitter".

This is an attempt to ID him...
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#45 Feb 15, 2007
Henrietta-

Helen Dagner's relationship to LE previous or current in MI has nothing to do with her background of the OCCK cases.

Without detailing too much, her husband was deceased when she was first made aware of a serial killer in Oakland County. Her daughter's jurisdiction is 100's of miles away from Oakland County. At the time of the OCCK killings, her children were children.

Her suspect, John, is very real as is his family, some of whom still live in Oakland County. There are a number of retired LE who stand by her.
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#55 Feb 16, 2007
The Free Press forum belongs to the Free Press. The thread on the OCCK was there long before Ms. Dagner started posting there. The thread was closed upon the complaints to the administrator, the Managing Editor and their legal department concerning foul language, inaccurate and untrue personal information, and loss of the thread theme. At no time was Ms. Dagner asked to leave nor was it shut down due to her posts.

I have the complete file - including that particular thread and the information available on who really posted there. Would you like for me to go through it DB and find out who these posters causing the shut down really were?
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

#56 Feb 16, 2007
Benjamin wrote:
Henrietta-
Helen Dagner's relationship to LE previous or current in MI has nothing to do with her background of the OCCK cases.
Without detailing too much, her husband was deceased when she was first made aware of a serial killer in Oakland County. Her daughter's jurisdiction is 100's of miles away from Oakland County. At the time of the OCCK killings, her children were children.
Her suspect, John, is very real as is his family, some of whom still live in Oakland County. There are a number of retired LE who stand by her.
That may well be true. What I can't understand is that if Helen Dagner was told all these confidential police information details about the OCCK murders by John, then why hasn't this John been arrested?

Surely one explanation might be that perhaps Helen Dagner might have been putting words into John's mouth? Why hasn't the senior officer in charge of the investigaton inteviewed John yet, or has he?

As I have said before I'm in sheer ignorance of the facts about this OCCK case. It's just that what I do know about the Ramsey case, and the Dr Jeffrey MacDonald case, and the Darlie Routier case is that the real culprits were never thoroughly, or properly, investigated by the police, or by the FBI.

It could well be that the police have just mistakenly decided this Norberg guy did it, in the same way as the police and FBI mistakenly decided that the Ramseys, and Dr Jeffrey MacDonald, and Darlie Routier did it.

This is some of what Helen Dagner has said about John and the OCCK case on the internet before now:

"laid her down with her jacket partly open because he couldn't get it closed....That Jill had the book Little House ON The Prarrie in her backpack and a quarter in her pocket....That one of the boys had no shoes on...and how would he know that both boys were injected with an object-post mortem?...and who would hide a Manicure-pedicure set...In a small shoe box office-up behind a drawer on a ledge-when he had a large apt.?...and John was the only suspect to have a place to house the children...and he was unemployed at the time of each abduction,murder & drop off...I could go on for pages about items of information,that John knew that was kept from the media and the public...but this flu I have is shuting me down...In conclusion either John is the Killer...or he's the most gifted Psychic the world has ever seen!!! Regards,Helen Dagner//////SO WHAT DID Lt.EDWARDS DO WITH MY EMAIL?~HE CIRCULATED IT TO ALL LE WHO HAD A CONNECTION WITH THE OAKLAND COUNTY CHILD KILLER CASES OVER THE YEARS...SO THEY COULD ALL HAVE A GOOD LAUGH///WHAT DID I DO AFTER FINDING THIS OUT~I CONTACTED THE AG OF MI~INTERNAL AFFAIRS~~AND THEY INVESTIGATED HIM & SEVERAL OTHER MICHIGAN STATE POLICE.....WAIT UNTILL YOU SEE THOSE LETTERS.....
__________
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

#57 Feb 16, 2007
This is some background information on the internet from Helen Dagner about her theory on the OCCK case:

"We talked about the murders everyday...a very few words were ever spoken that didn't included the Oakland County child killings...then one night
when we were having coffee I told John I was having difficulty...not havingever been toOakland County...figuring out the body drop off sites...he
took 4 place-mats...and drew the areas...I had never seen anyone draw maps like that...they were perfect...just like a store bought map...I was
impressed...the next day is when I called the Birmingham police and told them they had to see these maps...and they had to talk to John as he seemed to have a lot of inside info.

I remember their telling me, they would have to have more info...so that night at coffee I told John, I don't think you are the killer and you need to give me some information about each one of the kids that only the killer ..and the police...and the family would know...he said are you nuts?
When he realized I was going to leave...or he thought I was thinking less of him...he said, "I put a chicken bone in Tim's pocket" I told him I thought I had heard that before, then he said
"Kristine had little orange or pink things on her slack's...Jill had a book in her back pack and a quarter in her pocket."

One of the boys he dropped off with no shoes...he ended up telling me 300 plus matches to the crimes...then the police came up...he took 2
polygraph's...showed them a pass port were he was out of the country at the death of one child...and they let him walk...

I told them Johns passport was a fake...that he had wanted to go into the second passport business...but they just couldn't get be on the passport.

I remember when they called me, late one night at my daughters...he's not our man Helen...I couldn't believe what he was saying...when they mention the passport...I asked if they had someone who knew about these things, to check it out...they said no...I then asked, did you ask him were he stayed aboard? No....did you ask him were he ate, who he talked to. NO....well did you check with INTERPOL, yes...but they couldn't confirm...

I remember thinking...COPS!!! In fact, I said it a loud...my daughter, a detective, just looked at me...the next day I called Mr. Robinson, in fact
John had given me his number, I came right out and told him the name of the book in his daughters back pack...the next day Det. Anger and some other officer came up to Alpena.. I gave them a sample of John's hair and a note book of facts, we drove by John's apartment.

They took some photos...I gave them a photo of John...I didn't realize Det. Anger, had his own suspect...David Norberg...who's body he would exhume some 8 years later, trying to match his DNA, to a hair found on Tim...so many years had gone by, but when I read were the DNA didn't match...

I had to call Anger again and ask him if John's hair had matched...he didn't even remember my giving it to him...he still works with Jerry Tobias on the case...but he will probably go to his grave...thinking Norberg is the man....8 years after he died, his wife shows up with a necklace...with Kristine's name on it...that was suppose to have been in his personal stuff...it may have been...but it took 8 years to nd...when the man didn't own a shoe box full of stuff...besides, I already had met the killer...and yes a child would have gone with John...3 weeks ago Tobias told me yes we have to talk to John. So the next day, I called Det. Anger...
abc

Laura, IL

#59 Feb 16, 2007
Ok I said I was gone, but I am not - yet.

HM of the UK-

John was originally questioned by the police in 1977 as was his father. He was also poly'd in 1992/3 two times and rec'd a pass on both. Most damning for the LE was a passport produced in 92/93 that put John out of the country for one of the abductions.

Please notice that he didn't produce said passport in 1977 - however he had it in 1992 when he was facing questioning again.

There is also a witness who can corroborate at least one conversation where maps were drawn. This witness has spoken to LE within the last year.

Please note that sociopaths are well adept at deception and a poly is only as good as the administrator and the reader.
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

#61 Feb 16, 2007
I must say this John person seems like a prime suspect in the OCCK murders to me. I'm not convinced that Gary's DNA is in CODIS, or even John's DNA for that matter. It all sounds to me a bit like all the talk in the Ramsey case when people say Fleet White's DNA is 'obviously' in CODIS, and it 'obviously' has been tested, without providing any kind of official list of DNA testing to prove that.

From taking a quick look at the OCCK case it appears to me that Helen Dagner was involved in some kind of covert investigation, and undercover work in the case. Perhaps the original homicide team wanted Helen Dagner to find out more about this John person?

It also seems to me that the murder investigators on the OCCK case at the moment are fixated on this Norberg guy, and nobody else. They don't want to know about John, or Gary. It reminds me a bit of the investigation into the Ramsey case, or the MacDonald murders case investigation by the Army CID and FBI.

I agree with Helen Dagner that John seems to be the more likely lad. Somebody could have just sold Norberg that murder victim's cross in the past, which seem to be the most incriminating evidence against him.

Helen Dagner seems to think that John had two passports. One was a fake passport which might explain the mystery about John saying he was out of the country for one of the murders.

The thought occurred to me that there might have been more than one person involved in those OCCK murders. That's also a bit like the Ramsey case as well. I don't know about any kind of pedo ring being involved, but as far as I can judge, both John and Gary, and perhaps others, might have been involved.

This is a bit of background information about Helen Dagner's involvement in the OCCK investigation. As I have said before I hope Helen Dagner has never used any inside police information to embellish her accusations about John. From what I can make out Helen Dagner is at least presenting some solid evidence, and not just opinions:

Posted (Helen Dagner): Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:53 am Post subject:

OCCK "To answer some of your questions---No-The Mother of John's child, wanted me to meet him because she knew first hand that I did Covert Investigations for many Police dept's....and that my very good friend at the time was a Det.Lt....

and she always had wondered in the back of her mind...why out of the clear blue sky...did John stand behind her in her kitchen...and say....I was Investigated by the Original Oakland County Child Killer Task Force....

I mean like why would he say this...when nothing they were talking about...was even on that topic........
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#63 Feb 16, 2007
Correction DB-

Le has listened. LE does not take the results of a poly as they are not definitive. It is only a tool.

The passport stands in the way only because it exists. It in no way suggests that Ms. Dagner's John actually made any trips. In fact, there is speculation that it was his father (who has the same name) might have made the trip. And to reiterate, because John may have been out of the country for one abduction does not clear him of the others in any way.

And because I may seem in Defense of Ms. Dagner, don't think for one minute that John is the only possibility to be discussed. But don't lead yourself and others to believe John didn't do it or is made up. There is enough information on John to fill several file cabinets.

Also judging by my notes, the witness at the restaurant was not a waitress at all. This witness sat right behind John and Helen and heard everything.
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#65 Feb 17, 2007
When I tell you thins DB, please trust my authority. Ms. Dagner didn't claim anything about John's father because that is not a part of what had been told to her. That possibility arose through another investigation.

To clear John of one abduction and murder does not, in fact, clear him of the rest. The poly "pass" and the passport are only as good as paper. There is much more compelling evidence to us that does make John a viable suspect, but until the "famous" smoking gun is found, nothing can move forward. It is the way American Justice works.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the detective who told you the kids were carved on with a knife was merely planting a suggestion? A tactic often used to follow a line.
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#67 Feb 17, 2007
Detroit Breakdown-
You didn't answer my question. What kind of hair sample did Gary take from you that you think was on the body of Timothy King? There is something specific about the hair - if it is yours, you would know what that is.
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#69 Feb 17, 2007
And the hair?
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#70 Feb 17, 2007
And again, where is the smoking gun? Everything you have said is circumstantial. Also, could you please tell me what holidays Mark and Tim were abducted and murdered around?
Dots

AOL

#71 Feb 17, 2007
FYI only.

One cannot enter a country on one passport and then exit on a different one. Even if one were to be so clever as to be in possession of 2 valid passports (highly unlikely - if not impossible)there is still the problem of entry and exit records. Upon entry, the passport is stamped. Upon exit it is stamped. One trying to exit a country with a passport that has no entry stamp will not be allowed to leave until it is determined how that person got into the country.

All passports have identification numbers. Passports reported stolen by the holders are replaced with new ones, with different numbers. The "lost" passports are invalidated as is the number associated with that passport - never to be used again. In customs, those invalid numbers fail to show up as valid US passports.

Anyone holding an invlaid passport would be detained for the minimum of 24 hours, at the airport, longer if required, until the circumstances of the invalid passport are known. Then further detention in the US for prosecution of attemmpting to travel on, or being in possession of an invalid passport.

So, the passport stuff is pure nonsense. You can 86 this part of the story about John.
Benjamin

Sardinia, OH

#72 Feb 17, 2007
Yes Dots - all of that is correct, but I must remind you that this passport did not show up until 15 post killings. When John was first questioned in 1977 - he did not produce a passport.

I can also tell you that I traveled abroad quite often in the late 70's and early 80's and entered and exited many countries without any stamps at all. In fact, Frankfort, Germany stands out to me because I almost demanded a stamp there, but decided better of it at the time.

John's passport produced in 1992/3 looked authentic enough, but does not conclusively mean it was valid. At that time LE in charge were leaning heavily on the Norberg angle.

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