Can DNA in CODIS determine race/ethni...

Can DNA in CODIS determine race/ethnicity?

Posted in the JonBenet Ramsey Forum

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candy

East Lansing, MI

#1 Oct 12, 2010
I posted an answer to Biz, saying that Lin Wood was flat out lying when he said the unsourced DNA in this case was "Caucasian". I posted in September, 2006 that that DNA was NOT tested for race/ethnicity, and Carol McKinley said the same thing in a Fox News segment on the Ramsey case on 12/26/2006.

Biz posted the following today:

Candy Check out this link. When you have a profile DNA good enough for CODIS, it's good enough for ethnicity and certainly good enough to determine race. I think you are wrong on that issue. Just sayin'
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/fore...

So I asked a DNA expert about what Biz said, and here is the DEFINITIVE answer:

"A CODIS lab can search CODIS
with any number of loci it wants. To actually upload a profile they
require all 13 loci for 'good' samples (convicted offenders and such),
or 10 from forensic (crime scene/unknown) samples.

As for what can be determined from those alleles: virtually nothing
except the allele number. The non-STR marker, amelogenin, tells you
the sex of the individual, but that is the only phenotypic trait.
Otherwise, if a sample types as a '10, 12'(for instance) it tells you
nothing except that the person is a 10, 12. There is no racial
information there, or anything else.

What the poster might be saying is - if there is (good) enough DNA
available for obtaining results on 10 CODIS loci, you should have
enough to do other testing as well, which Could give you phenotypic
information. There are some companies/labs that do that (e.g.
http://www.ancestrybydna.com/ ) but none of the crime labs do.

The method used for such testing is based on SNPs. Those do not really
require high quality DNA (i.e., it can be more degraded than for an
STR), but you need to look at a lot of them to learn anything (e.g.,
there are no pure black/white SNPs, only what multiple SNPs indicate
about ancestry). So that testing would depend on how much DNA, if any,
remains.

But nothing from the CODIS loci."
candy

East Lansing, MI

#2 Oct 12, 2010
Again, the huge significance of this: So much for Lin Wood telling us the truth on the alleged race/ethnicity of this unsourced DNA.
Mame

Chicago, IL

#3 Oct 12, 2010
candy wrote:
I posted an answer to Biz, saying that Lin Wood was flat out lying when he said the unsourced DNA in this case was "Caucasian". I posted in September, 2006 that that DNA was NOT tested for race/ethnicity, and Carol McKinley said the same thing in a Fox News segment on the Ramsey case on 12/26/2006.
Biz posted the following today:
Candy Check out this link. When you have a profile DNA good enough for CODIS, it's good enough for ethnicity and certainly good enough to determine race. I think you are wrong on that issue. Just sayin'
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/fore...
So I asked a DNA expert about what Biz said, and here is the DEFINITIVE answer:
"A CODIS lab can search CODIS
with any number of loci it wants. To actually upload a profile they
require all 13 loci for 'good' samples (convicted offenders and such),
or 10 from forensic (crime scene/unknown) samples.
As for what can be determined from those alleles: virtually nothing
except the allele number. The non-STR marker, amelogenin, tells you
the sex of the individual, but that is the only phenotypic trait.
Otherwise, if a sample types as a '10, 12'(for instance) it tells you
nothing except that the person is a 10, 12. There is no racial
information there, or anything else.
What the poster might be saying is - if there is (good) enough DNA
available for obtaining results on 10 CODIS loci, you should have
enough to do other testing as well, which Could give you phenotypic
information. There are some companies/labs that do that (e.g.
http://www.ancestrybydna.com/ ) but none of the crime labs do.
The method used for such testing is based on SNPs. Those do not really
require high quality DNA (i.e., it can be more degraded than for an
STR), but you need to look at a lot of them to learn anything (e.g.,
there are no pure black/white SNPs, only what multiple SNPs indicate
about ancestry). So that testing would depend on how much DNA, if any,
remains.
But nothing from the CODIS loci."
I posted about this a long time ago. I believe that the Ramsey case DNA was tested at a private lab, the same lab that worked on the Chase case DNA. I have an entire report somewhere about this. This type of testing is done on the down low and only used for investigative purposes. It's frowned upon because of the racial profiling aspect of this kind of testing.

BUT, as research indicates, this type of testing is done all the time and successfully helps in cold cases...and any case really.
The number of markers chosen for CODIS leave out these markers on purpose due to concerns about the racial targeting. BUT, just mix a few other markers around and WA LA...there is much to be learned about the DNA's origins.

I think another area to look closely at with Ramsey are the advances in fingerprinting. It's wild space age stuff.
But, I do believe this type of testing was done on the Ramsey sample, Lacy even said they were considering it in a public statement.

“It's all about CynBella”

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#4 Oct 12, 2010
It depends. In the case of "Precious Doe" they said that she "almost certainly" had a white grandparent and she was identified as a girl with a bi-racial mother. So in her case they did determine her race/ethnicity. But in the case of that girl in Florida, they declared her skeletal remains as belonging to a black female..she was later identified as a white females. She might have had a black great-grandparent or something..so it's really tricky.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#5 Oct 12, 2010
Quote: But, I do believe this type of testing was done on the Ramsey sample, Lacy even said they were considering it in a public statement.

Again, as with so many things, such as the doll, no it wasn't done to the best of my knowledge and sources, as both I posted and Carol McKinley broadcast. Pro-Team Ramsey people can believe whatever set of facts they want from their people, I could care less. I'm talking about the time period when LIN WOOD SAID this had happened, in 2003-4. I traced this whole story back to LIN WOOD AND NO ONE BUT LIN WOOD, in an interview with the AP. It didn't come from anyone else PRIOR TO WOOD in the public domain, although this FALSE information has been picked up by the LAZY likes of Schiller and Silverman since then. This came up with him trying to rebut the theory that this DNA came from handling, procesing, etc. in the manufacturing process in Thailand. Tom Bennett, in his affidavit to arrest Karr called this DNA a " MALE FRACTION" with no reference to any ethnicity. There wasn't enough DNA to do this testing, as Carol McKinley reported, and as the expert I quoted stated, YOU NEED A LOT TO LEARN ANYTHING, and there was not a lot to test ever.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#6 Oct 12, 2010
Oh yeah, and when the DA's office was trying to arrest Karr, if they had had any information that the unsourced DNA came from a Caucasian male in 2006, it would have been put in the affidavit for the warrant to arrest a Caucasian male, John Mark Karr, for this crime.
Mame

Chicago, IL

#7 Oct 12, 2010
I don't see this as being a big deal one way or another. When it is used it's done very quietly. I do believe they know an enormous amount about the ethnicity of the samples.

But, it's neither here nor there....

The many DNA samples are what count...
candy

East Lansing, MI

#8 Jan 8, 2011
Again, the truth about what can be determinded from the MINIMUM amount of DNA in this case, with not even a complete set of 13 CODIS Loci, versus those trying to obstruct Justice's LIES.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#9 Jan 16, 2011
I thought I would bump this to also remind everyone that we don't know what ELSE was tested for DNA, which is very mysterious considering that the DNA report is not released

I'd like to think they tested the pineapple and the tea for DNA as well. Had Burke drank from that glass or had JBR put her fingers in that bowl to take the pineapple there would be his DNA in the remains of that glass from salivary backwash and possibly remnants of JBR in the pineapple.

There are so many things that we just don't know regarding what was tested the for me, I just assume that whatever ELSE is in that report is unflattering to the Ramseys, but that is just my own opinion and speculation
Old South

AOL

#10 Jan 16, 2011
Capricorn wrote:
I thought I would bump this to also remind everyone that we don't know what ELSE was tested for DNA, which is very mysterious considering that the DNA report is not released
I'd like to think they tested the pineapple and the tea for DNA as well. Had Burke drank from that glass or had JBR put her fingers in that bowl to take the pineapple there would be his DNA in the remains of that glass from salivary backwash and possibly remnants of JBR in the pineapple.
There are so many things that we just don't know regarding what was tested the for me, I just assume that whatever ELSE is in that report is unflattering to the Ramseys, but that is just my own opinion and speculation
Since I have openly stated I don't post from confidential sources, I am going to break my word in order to state the following -- something I just found in some old emails -- so, just say it's my belief since I'm relatively certain the person who related this to me (who was NOT Biz)is reliable.

In one of Karr's missives around "a" Christmastime, he referred to "the Deceptor of Nothing and All is his Protector" (if anyone here remembers it) I've learned that when he said this, he was referring to the DNA in the case. He has indicated this DNA is his "Protector" since it proved to be a mismatch to HIS DNA, thus the reason for his calling it his, "Protector". In further clarifying his statement, he continues by agreeing it was not his DNA that they found on her and he cannot explain whose it is other than to say that it must have been put there after the crime was committed by someone who handled her after the fact whose DNA was not tested, for whatever reason. He thinks it could have come from any number of people -- people probably unrelated to the crime. He further offers that he wore tight leather gloves during most of the attack and that would explain why his is not present.

There is more that was given to me that ties him even more tightly to the case, but I believe this bit of information will suffice for now.
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#11 Jan 16, 2011
Folks,
You CANNOT positively determine race, or ethnic from DNA. You CAN make an educated GUESS about these things using DNA, but there is no guaranty that you are correct. The only thing you CAN positively determine from DNA is gender as far as the contributor. To tell the race or ethnic from DNA would be about as difficult to do as telling race or ethnic from a fingerprint.
CC
Old South

AOL

#12 Jan 17, 2011
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#13 Jan 17, 2011
Old South wrote:
http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01 /04/new-dna-test-can-detect-ha ir-color-of-suspects/?ncid=txt lnkusnews00000006
Hi OS,
If you read your source correctly, the DNA tests can help you PREDICT hair color. The word "PREDICT"??? Well, while I can predict who will be going to the Super Bowl right now, but until next weekend is over, we don't know for sure.

I also predict that Tiger Woods will win the next tournament he participates in.

I also predict snow where you live tomorrow evening.

Get the picture?
CC
Old South

AOL

#14 Jan 17, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi OS,
If you read your source correctly, the DNA tests can help you PREDICT hair color. The word "PREDICT"??? Well, while I can predict who will be going to the Super Bowl right now, but until next weekend is over, we don't know for sure.
I also predict that Tiger Woods will win the next tournament he participates in.
I also predict snow where you live tomorrow evening.
Get the picture?
CC
Researchers in the Netherlands identified 13 DNA markers from 11 genes that can help predict when a person has black or red hair with more than 90 percent accuracy and blond and brown hair with about 80 percent accuracy. Previously, only red hair could be detected by DNA sampling.

Let's see, 80-90% vs. 5-10%. I predict you'd best not go to Vegas to try for that retirement job you spoke about.
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#15 Jan 17, 2011
Old South wrote:
<quoted text>
Researchers in the Netherlands identified 13 DNA markers from 11 genes that can help predict when a person has black or red hair with more than 90 percent accuracy and blond and brown hair with about 80 percent accuracy. Previously, only red hair could be detected by DNA sampling.
Let's see, 80-90% vs. 5-10%. I predict you'd best not go to Vegas to try for that retirement job you spoke about.
Hi OS,
80-90% gives you a 20%- 10% chance of error. A DNA profile gives you a 0.00000000001 chance of error. Many millions of times more accurate. 10 or 20% chance of error will not hold up in any court.
CC
Old South

AOL

#16 Jan 17, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi OS,
80-90% gives you a 20%- 10% chance of error. A DNA profile gives you a 0.00000000001 chance of error. Many millions of times more accurate. 10 or 20% chance of error will not hold up in any court.
CC
Well, I have only 10 fingers and 10 toes so I don't know how you can expect me to count higher than 5.
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#17 Jan 17, 2011
Old South wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I have only 10 fingers and 10 toes so I don't know how you can expect me to count higher than 5.
Hi OS,
I know you are a LOT smarter than that. You are a lot smarter than some of my old college classmates, and they are at least 12 years younger than you!
CC
Savvy

Mumbai, India

#19 Dec 27, 2013
The damn dna fingerprint should be able to tell everything about any person, otherwise they wasted all that money on the genome project lasting 13 years. Truly a bloody waste

Since: Feb 12

Pearl City, HI

#20 Dec 27, 2013
candy wrote:
Again, the huge significance of this: So much for Lin Wood telling us the truth on the alleged race/ethnicity of this unsourced DNA.
Hi Candy,
You are correct at present. At this time in DNA technology, we cannot definitively determine race. However, DNA science has improved to the point where they can make an "educated guess" as to the race of the contributor.

In the future, we MIGHT be able to determine race, but there would still be another major problem with people who come from mixed races or ethnic. Most African Americans in the United States have some Caucasian ancestry in their backgrounds. This would complicate the matter greatly.

What CAN be determined using DNA would be gender, and blood type, and parenthood. This, of course, is if you have the profiles that show these things.
CC
candy

East Lansing, MI

#22 Dec 27, 2013
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Candy,
You are correct at present. At this time in DNA technology, we cannot definitively determine race. However, DNA science has improved to the point where they can make an "educated guess" as to the race of the contributor.
In the future, we MIGHT be able to determine race, but there would still be another major problem with people who come from mixed races or ethnic. Most African Americans in the United States have some Caucasian ancestry in their backgrounds. This would complicate the matter greatly.
What CAN be determined using DNA would be gender, and blood type, and parenthood. This, of course, is if you have the profiles that show these things.
CC
Spot on Baktari! Thank you for your post.

A great example of the problems they already have had with determining race/ethnicity is the Susannah Chase case. It was determined the perp was Native American/Eskimo. Of course, they had a full sample in that case, 13 markers, and semen. When the perp was caught by a cold DNA hit, his nationality was Chilean.

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