Did JonBenet Have Drugs In Her System?

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#21 Oct 22, 2009
BrotherMoon wrote:
<quoted text>
At least in my theory I provide for what was done to JB with the idea that Patsy was mentally ill. I can see a mentally ill person doing all that but not a normal one.
I don't think anyone MEANT for JB to die.

How do you account for Susan Smith, who planned her boys' deaths and watched them die and was judged perfectly sane? And the other "normal" mothers who did horrible things to their kids and were judged sane?

It's a sad fact - some sane people will do just about anything, commit atrocious acts, even against their own children.

"Man always chooses his highest good," and it's true. After injuring JB, the Ramseys' highest good was to cover their behind and stay out of jail no matter what it took.

BrotherMoon

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#22 Oct 22, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think anyone MEANT for JB to die.
That's where you go wrong.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#23 Oct 22, 2009
BrotherMoon wrote:
<quoted text>
That's where you go wrong.
I'm sure it's not. I think you read the SERAPH gobbledygook and got hooked on that.

What's your source for the statement you made that the parents at JB's school were planning an intervention for Patsy and what was that intervention for.

Please point us all to a credible (meaning not you) source.
Old South

AOL

#24 Oct 22, 2009
BrotherMoon wrote:
<quoted text>
In the annals of murder it is often brought up that the killer says something to the effect of "she is mine", i.e. now that the person is dead the person is totally possessed by the killer.
<snip>
And this is exactly the stance that JMK took. In many of his musings about the murder he makes remarks either identical to or similar to, "She is mine"!

And so far as her being tortured, surely posters have read the coroner's report with all the findings of abrasions, bruises, and many other marks on her body, all of which IMO indicate that she was indeed tortured. Whether or not she was awake during all this activity is another story. But considering this:

The test has to be taken within 12 hours or it will not show up in the body. Hutton noted that the test was not admissible as evidence in court. Laboratories in South Africa currently do not test for GHB.

We know that the coroner didn't even arrive on the scene until 8:20 the night of the murder. And the autopsy was not performed until the next day. So, even if the test had been performed, it would have been performed too late for GMB to show up in her system. So forget that. Just another reason to question why it took Dr. Meyer so long to even arrive on the scene, much less perform his autopsy. It's my personal opinion that Dr. Meyer performed only the minimally required tests to determine whether any drugs were in her system and those tests he did perform were done so long after death their accuracy and validity are questionable.

But back to all the abrasions and marks on her body, IMO it was pretty evident that she was tortured, aside from the cord on her neck. I, like Biz, sincerely hope she was unconscious during all this TORTURE.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#25 Oct 22, 2009
Old South wrote:
<quoted text>
And this is exactly the stance that JMK took. In many of his musings about the murder he makes remarks either identical to or similar to, "She is mine"!
And so far as her being tortured, surely posters have read the coroner's report with all the findings of abrasions, bruises, and many other marks on her body, all of which IMO indicate that she was indeed tortured. Whether or not she was awake during all this activity is another story. But considering this:
The test has to be taken within 12 hours or it will not show up in the body. Hutton noted that the test was not admissible as evidence in court. Laboratories in South Africa currently do not test for GHB.
We know that the coroner didn't even arrive on the scene until 8:20 the night of the murder. And the autopsy was not performed until the next day. So, even if the test had been performed, it would have been performed too late for GMB to show up in her system. So forget that. Just another reason to question why it took Dr. Meyer so long to even arrive on the scene, much less perform his autopsy. It's my personal opinion that Dr. Meyer performed only the minimally required tests to determine whether any drugs were in her system and those tests he did perform were done so long after death their accuracy and validity are questionable.
But back to all the abrasions and marks on her body, IMO it was pretty evident that she was tortured, aside from the cord on her neck. I, like Biz, sincerely hope she was unconscious during all this TORTURE.
What will not show up in the body?

Do you mean GHB? With that, all metabolites are gone from the body within twenty-four hours.

JB had the cord furrow on her neck and her right wrist. She has two marks on her back and one the right side of her face.

She has an abrasion or bruise above the left collarbone.

What evidence of torture is there?

Would you like a link to some photos of victims of real torture? I'm sure I can find them on the Internet.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#26 Oct 22, 2009
If the victim's unconscious, then it's not torture.

Torture victims. Their wounds bear NO resemblance to JB's wounds. I'm not trying to minimize JB's death, but with all due respect, she wasn't tortured. Violated, yes. Killed, yes. Tortured, no.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Tortured_to_d...

http://www.waynebesen.com/uploaded_images/iRA...

http://media.faluninfo.net/media/photo/2008/0...

http://liberty.hypermart.net/cgi-bin/blogs/me...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dwS7qfzBHmQ/SHPQaFW...
BrotherMoon

Denver, CO

#27 Oct 22, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
If the victim's unconscious, then it's not torture.
Torture victims. Their wounds bear NO resemblance to JB's wounds. I'm not trying to minimize JB's death, but with all due respect, she wasn't tortured. Violated, yes. Killed, yes. Tortured, no.
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Tortured_to_d...
http://www.waynebesen.com/uploaded_images/iRA...
http://media.faluninfo.net/media/photo/2008/0...
http://liberty.hypermart.net/cgi-bin/blogs/me...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dwS7qfzBHmQ/SHPQaFW...
And according to Nedra she was only a little violated.
Old South

AOL

#28 Oct 22, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
<quoted text>
What will not show up in the body?
Do you mean GHB? With that, all metabolites are gone from the body within twenty-four hours.
JB had the cord furrow on her neck and her right wrist. She has two marks on her back and one the right side of her face.
She has an abrasion or bruise above the left collarbone.
What evidence of torture is there?
Would you like a link to some photos of victims of real torture? I'm sure I can find them on the Internet.
Yes, I did mean GHB in particular and all metaboliteas in general. Wasn't that what we were talking about?

You sound as though you have become "conditioned" to those things that ordinary people consider torture. Are you saying that the two marks on her back and one on the right side of her face didn't represent torture? I can go back to the autopsy report which -- as I remember it -- cites many other places on her body that showed evidence of "wounds", which could be considered torture. And you can't say -- because you don't know -- if the ligature on her neck was used for torturing her and if it was, to what extent or for how long a time. If she were alive today to speak for herself, could you look this child in the eye and say, "No, you were NOT tortured!" If you can, I think you're one cold, callous excuse for a human being.

Oh, I'm sure you can furnish all kinds of pictures of torture victims who endured torture to a greater degree than JonBenet, but that does not take away from what she felt (if she was conscious). So, yes, IMO there is no question that she was tortured.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#29 Oct 22, 2009
Old South wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I did mean GHB in particular and all metaboliteas in general. Wasn't that what we were talking about?
You sound as though you have become "conditioned" to those things that ordinary people consider torture. Are you saying that the two marks on her back and one on the right side of her face didn't represent torture? I can go back to the autopsy report which -- as I remember it -- cites many other places on her body that showed evidence of "wounds", which could be considered torture. And you can't say -- because you don't know -- if the ligature on her neck was used for torturing her and if it was, to what extent or for how long a time. If she were alive today to speak for herself, could you look this child in the eye and say, "No, you were NOT tortured!" If you can, I think you're one cold, callous excuse for a human being.
Oh, I'm sure you can furnish all kinds of pictures of torture victims who endured torture to a greater degree than JonBenet, but that does not take away from what she felt (if she was conscious). So, yes, IMO there is no question that she was tortured.
I don't know what you were talking about for sure. You wrote GHB, then GMB. I assumed you meant GHB, but I didn't know.

I am a cold, callous excuse for a human being to you (and that's fine with me, I have no emotional investment here) because I WOULD look that child in the eye and say, "What was done to you was terrible and reprehensible and whoever did it should be punished to the full extent of the law, but you weren't tortured."

I certainly think she was abused and violated, but not tortured.

So we disagree. That's okay. It's fine. I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, please don't try to convince me.
Old South

AOL

#30 Oct 22, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure there are abrasions, but there are no DEFENSIVE abrasions and not enough material under her nails to indicate even a slight struggle. No way did she fight for her life. She didn't even struggle at all.
I take issue with your above statement as well as your prior statements that JonBenet did not endure torture during her assault. You can't know for certain that she did not engage in any defensive action; again, you're simply giving your opinion (such as it is). But in reference to the few marks on her body you mentioned previously, I would like to offer the following evidence in support of her torture that was copied from the autopsy report:

1. Ligature furrow on neck.

2. Abrasions and petechial hemorrhages, neck.

3. Scalp contusion.

4. Small contusions, tips of temporal lobes.

5. Abrasions on right cheek.

6. Abrasions/contusions on posterior right shoulder.

7. Abrasions on left, lower back.

8. Abrasions on posterior left lower leg.

9. Superficial abrasion on right side of chin.

10. A 1 cm red/purple area of abrasion on the right posterolateral area of the 1 x 1 cm humenal orifice.

11. A linear to comminuted skull fracture measuring approximately 8.5 inches in length.

I rest my case.
Old South

AOL

#31 Oct 22, 2009
Correction of typo:

10.... 1 x 1 cm hymenal orifice.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#32 Oct 22, 2009
The you will have to take issue, Old South.

I believe she was injured, wounded, hurt, molested, violated, killed. But not tortured. I believe the person who did it should be incarcerated for life and killing would be too good for him or her.

Perhaps it's just a question of semantics. But I'm not going to argue about it and I told you so before. So please, just take issue.
BrotherMoon

Denver, CO

#33 Oct 22, 2009
TMI dismisses sexual abuse. It is typical of someone that abuses or lets abuse be done to them. TMI pimped herself by posting her pictures thus inviting the speculation that she invites abuse and may even then proceed to reciprocal action. She also is a defender of Wacko Jacko who clearly was a pedophile. The defense of torturers and dismissal of abuse is typical of one who engages in those things.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#34 Oct 22, 2009
Wrong. I don't dismiss sexual abuse of JB. I believe it occurred. The picture I have posted now is the REAL photo of me, but no one cares about me. This is not the ********** forum, this is the JBR forum, lest you forget.

But right now, I'd love to have this:

This is what I want to know about right now:

Where's your CREDIBLE, i.e., NOT you, source for the statement that the mothers at JB's school were planning an intervention for Patsy? And an intervention for what?
Old South

AOL

#35 Oct 22, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
The you will have to take issue, Old South.
I believe she was injured, wounded, hurt, molested, violated, killed. But not tortured. Perhaps it's just a question of semantics. But I'm not going to argue about it and I told you so before. So please, just take issue.
Just take issue and let you get away with saying this child was NOT TORTURED? INDEED NOT!!

According to the World Book Dictionary, Volume Two L-Z, A Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionary:

TORTURE: 1. The act of inflicting very severe pain. 2a. A very severe pain or suffering; agony. "She suffered tortures from a toothache." SYN: anguish, misery, distress. 3. Figurative - a violent and continuous twisting, pushing, or shaking that taxes a thing to the limit: "The torture of a boat by pounding waves."

Whether you agree or not, this describes JonBenet's suffering, even surpassing what one might endure with a "toothache". Furthermore, "a violent and continuous...thing to the limit" describes exactly what she endured since in her case, "the limit" was her death.

What can be more succinct?

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#36 Oct 22, 2009
There's no use for us to go round and round in circles on something we aren't going to agree on. I know the definition of torture.

I think JB was hit on the head and boom, that was it. No suffering. Was it a horrible, terrible thing? Absolutely. Should someone live out the rest of his or her life in prison because of it? Absolutely. Was she violated? Absolutely. Was she treated with disrespect? Absolutely. Was she tortured? Not in my opinion.

You hold a different opinion and it's your right to hold it. I'm not trying to change your opinion. Please stop with trying to change my opinion.

Now, if new evidence comes to light, indicating JB was conscious while all this was going on, I will change my own opinion, but right now, the evidence shows she was unconscious and unaware.

So you will have to "take issue" because I'm saying she was not tortured.
Old South

AOL

#37 Oct 22, 2009
So, now we can argue which came first: the blow to the head or the strangulation? Until this issue is satisfactorily resolved, I'll stick to my opinion that she was tortured.
Biz

Tampa, FL

#38 Oct 24, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
The you will have to take issue, Old South.
I believe she was injured, wounded, hurt, molested, violated, killed. But not tortured. I believe the person who did it should be incarcerated for life and killing would be too good for him or her.
Perhaps it's just a question of semantics. But I'm not going to argue about it and I told you so before. So please, just take issue.
Well there was some sort of object put into her vaginal wall (perhaps a paint stick) There were numerous stun gun marks on her body. She was bound up in bondage with a contraction so that the sadistic perpetrator could strangle her to make her eyes bulge out, yet keep her from screaming for her mother. This was probably for the purpose of picture taken so he could get off all over again on the picture later. Sadistic pedophiles get off on torture. They don't need to have sex with their victim. BTK ejaculted all over the basement after hanging the Ortego girl. He never had sex with her though. He kept photographs of his torure for trophies...to relive the crime all over again later on. I think this perpetrator was much like BTK in that sense. The binds on JBR's wrists were probably also attached to the garrote to control her further. There are sick people all over this country into this stuff. It is the sickest perversion known to human kind. Someone needs to put a stop to it.
I have to DISAGREE with you CSI and agree with Old South. This was the cruelest form of torture on a child I can think of.

“Sarah Palin, Go Home!”

Since: Aug 09

Bexley, Ohio

#39 Oct 24, 2009
Biz wrote:
<quoted text>
Well there was some sort of object put into her vaginal wall (perhaps a paint stick) There were numerous stun gun marks on her body. She was bound up in bondage with a contraction so that the sadistic perpetrator could strangle her to make her eyes bulge out, yet keep her from screaming for her mother. This was probably for the purpose of picture taken so he could get off all over again on the picture later. Sadistic pedophiles get off on torture. They don't need to have sex with their victim. BTK ejaculted all over the basement after hanging the Ortego girl. He never had sex with her though. He kept photographs of his torure for trophies...to relive the crime all over again later on. I think this perpetrator was much like BTK in that sense. The binds on JBR's wrists were probably also attached to the garrote to control her further. There are sick people all over this country into this stuff. It is the sickest perversion known to human kind. Someone needs to put a stop to it.
I have to DISAGREE with you CSI and agree with Old South. This was the cruelest form of torture on a child I can think of.
I think if you look at the photos I posted links to, you'll see a lot more cruel forms of torture. There are persons whose faces are literally gone from the torture they endured while conscious.

I certainly agree that JB was both molested and violated, but evidence indicates she was unconscious when it was done, so wasn't tortured, which would require consciousness. I certainly agree that what was done to her was totally wrong, wrong, wrong and criminal and that her killer, whether Ramsey or not, she pay for the crime.

Her eyes were not bulging out, Biz, and there is no proof that a stun gun was ever used on her.

The tape over her mouth shows a perfect impression of her lips, indicating that she never attempted to scream, never moved her lips after the tape was put over them, i.e., she was unconscious.

Undoubtedly, a prior strangulation, with a scarf or something similar (the abrasion near her left collar bone) or the hit over the head rendered her unconscious.

I think it's just a semantics problem on what we think "torture" is. I think if a person in unconscious, it's a violation, a molestation, but not torture. For me, torture implies consciousness of pain. That's the definition that Old South posted.
Biz

Tampa, FL

#40 Oct 26, 2009
CSIEngland wrote:
<quoted text>
I think if you look at the photos I posted links to, you'll see a lot more cruel forms of torture. There are persons whose faces are literally gone from the torture they endured while conscious.
I certainly agree that JB was both molested and violated, but evidence indicates she was unconscious when it was done, so wasn't tortured, which would require consciousness. I certainly agree that what was done to her was totally wrong, wrong, wrong and criminal and that her killer, whether Ramsey or not, she pay for the crime.
Her eyes were not bulging out, Biz, and there is no proof that a stun gun was ever used on her.
The tape over her mouth shows a perfect impression of her lips, indicating that she never attempted to scream, never moved her lips after the tape was put over them, i.e., she was unconscious.
Undoubtedly, a prior strangulation, with a scarf or something similar (the abrasion near her left collar bone) or the hit over the head rendered her unconscious.
I think it's just a semantics problem on what we think "torture" is. I think if a person in unconscious, it's a violation, a molestation, but not torture. For me, torture implies consciousness of pain. That's the definition that Old South posted.
This garrote type of contraption is made for the purpose of sadistic torture. I have read quite a few tidbits about this and as NK said in her interview: the look they want is to see the eyes bulging out. I have heard this from more than one source who has knowledge of this type of stuff. Using the garrote can create this look, scare the victim, yet leave them unable to scream. True, we cannot be certain this is what happened, but that is usually what this type of device is used for. The perp gets off on seeing the victim so scared.
I do agree that a scarf could have been used previously. I still stand by the theory that the garrote rendered her unconscience but the blow to the head with a blunt object is what actually killed her.

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