Burke Ramsey REFUSED to be interviewe...

BrotherMoon

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#711 Sep 10, 2013
Burke was cleared. Not my opinion.
Rupert

Waterloo, Canada

#712 Sep 10, 2013
gotgum wrote:
<quoted text>
The reddish triangular area shown in the autopsy photos and described in the autopsy report is caused by the rupture of a blood vessel (or a number of small capillaries) in the area of the base of the "carotid triangle". As these vessels bled outward from the center of the traumatized area along the subcutaneous layer, the blood would be slightly restricted within the carotid triangle due to the defining musculature, and eventually work its way upward as it begins to trail off toward the apex of the triangle and end at where the ligature furrow is. The "parchment-like" appearance is from the accumulated blood just under the surface of the skin. This kind of mark is sometimes seen in other pictures of people who died from ligature strangulation.
That's what I thought also, but never heard of the carotid triangle. That all makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that, gotgum. Now the question is: could it have happened after the head blow in the same way as the petechia that Moonjack is suggesting? I also wonder why Meyer didn't note the carotid triangle.

Below is a photo illustrating the carotid triangle and I also found discussion about the blood pooling into the triangle (eccomysis?).
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_triang...

Fascinating and feels good to see some finality on such a key technical issue.

Rupe

BrotherMoon

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#713 Sep 10, 2013
All the lower bruising means there was an initial strangulation before the application of the neck ligature to it's final position. From the extent of that damage it is likely that initial strangulation caused unconsciousness.

The accident/cover-up theory states that strangulation was unintentionally done by grasping the shirt collar. The next event in the series is a fall onto an object causing the skull damage.

The next event is the application of the neck ligature to mimic a garroting.

Those pieces don't fit into a coherent picture.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#714 Sep 10, 2013
Rupert wrote:
<quoted text>
That's what I thought also, but never heard of the carotid triangle. That all makes a lot of sense. Thanks for that, gotgum.
Now the question is: could it have happened after the head blow in the same way as the petechia that Moonjack is suggesting?
I also wonder why Meyer didn't note the carotid triangle.

Below is a photo illustrating the carotid triangle and I also found discussion about the blood pooling into the triangle (eccomysis?).
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_triang...

Fascinating and feels good to see some finality on such a key technical issue.

Rupe
There are four anterior triangles of the neck, and two posterior. Major veins and arteries within the carotid triangle are shown on this page:
http://home.comcast.net/~wnor/lesson5.htm

I am not an expert. My opinion is that even after the head blow, it is certainly possible (assuming she was still alive) for burst blood vessels to continue to bleed out. Even after the heart has stopped beating, there is still pressure within the vessels. So it is even possible after death for this to happen (at least until there is no more pressure). And as moonjack pointed out earlier,“Death is not always an immediate cessation of life.” I would even go further and say that it is seldom an immediate cessation of life. Think of death as a process, rather than an event.

Petechiae are the result of the tiny capillaries that have burst near the surface of the body. They are usually caused by extreme pressure within the blood supply to the capillaries. Strangulation is something that causes extreme pressure within the blood supply to the head. The weakest capillaries closest to the surface are the ones that are most likely to burst first. These would be the ones in the sclera of the eyes.

But other causes of pressure can cause this as well. Ever get or give a hickey... a love-bite... a passion mark? That mark is the result of petechial hemorrhaging. An object scraping across the surface of your skin can cause them. I believe that is what caused the petechial bruising on JonBenet’s neck between where the ligature was first tightened and where it finally came to rest and form the furrow. From "Pathology of Neck Injury," by Peter Vanezis:

"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."

This accounts for the “areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches,” as written in the AR.

Meyer didn’t write the autopsy report to educate the public. In fact, he fought to keep it sealed.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangles_of_the...

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#715 Sep 11, 2013
quitemad wrote:
<quoted text>I agree with what you said. I believe that this is how it went down. It was night, after the party, jonbenet had wet the bed again and went to get Burke or get into Burke's bed with him (which I understand was common) and, it being Christmas night and them being kids, they couldn't sleep because they were excited about their new toys, etc. They go down to the basement to play with their new toys and, Burke being jealous of JonBenet for all kinds of reasons (better gifts, more attention, etc.), gets angry at JB and in a fit of rage picked up a golf club and hit JonBenet. I don't believe he meant to kill her - kids that age don't usually understand the consequences of their actions - but once he started hitting, he couldn't stop because he was in a blind rage. After the rage dissipates, Burke sees what he has done and begins to scream for Patsy, who is still in her clothes from the party. She comes running down to basement and sees what happened. She thinks that JonBenet cannot be saved so she decides that rather than let JonBenet suffer a slow death, she decides to "finish her off", and in an attempt to cover for Burke, her last remaining child, she suddenly remembers the book she had just finished reading that talked about a garrotte killing, so she decided to kill JB with the garrotte in hopes of making it look like an intruder did it. Patsy was a fairly large woman, so she could easily have used the garrotte. Then, because it would make no sense for an intruder to just come in and kill a little girl for no reason, she had to make it look like a pedophile had done it, so she digitally penetrated JB and then did all the "loving" things - i.e. drew the heart on JB's hand, etc. She then woke up John and told him what had happened. John, also wanting to save his son and his precious reputation, also remembering the book, etc. dictated the ransom note to Patsy using a lot of the phrases from the book. The rest is history. Just my opinion - no evidence of this at all.
My scenario is slightly different but nobody will ever know for sure

The one thing that I will say is that in no way, IMO, did John not participate and be involved in the whole thing from start to finish.

I think and agree that whatever happened, Burke went to his PARENTS, and in Burke's case, he likely would have gone first to his FATHER, who, despite his lack of presence as a dad overall, was still the better parent for Burke.

Regardless, whatever happened that night, IMO was dealt with by BOTH parents.

I have always been of the belief that Burke did "whatever" and did not know she was dead and his parents shooed him off to his room and completed the cover up. They "may" have even told Burke that an intruder did it so that he wouldn't know and feel the guilt that he had done it. I think as Burke grew older and into adulthood, he figured out and knew the truth

BrotherMoon

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#716 Sep 11, 2013
Burke was ceared.
John found the body at 11 am therefor was not involved in anything.
Rupert

Waterloo, Canada

#717 Sep 12, 2013
BrotherMoon wrote:
Burke was ceared.
John found the body at 11 am therefor was not involved in anything.
BM, you've heard it from me before, I am fascinated by your theory - the Sandy Stranger thing (especially the pineapple and cream and "posession"). But I repeat the questions I have about why would John go along with it and risk his career? Why would Patsy's sisters and family not suggest any suspicion that would alleviate all this conundrum especially after she has gone since 2006? I think you mentioned incest - how does that fit in?
Rupe
Rupert

Waterloo, Canada

#718 Sep 12, 2013
gotgum wrote:
I am not an expert. My opinion is that even after the head blow, it is certainly possible (assuming she was still alive) for burst blood vessels to continue to bleed out. Even after the heart has stopped beating, there is still pressure within the vessels. So it is even possible after death for this to happen (at least until there is no more pressure). And as moonjack pointed out earlier,“Death is not always an immediate cessation of life.” I would even go further and say that it is seldom an immediate cessation of life. Think of death as a process, rather than an event.
Petechiae are the result of the tiny capillaries that have burst near the surface of the body. They are usually caused by extreme pressure within the blood supply to the capillaries. Strangulation is something that causes extreme pressure within the blood supply to the head. The weakest capillaries closest to the surface are the ones that are most likely to burst first. These would be the ones in the sclera of the eyes.
But other causes of pressure can cause this as well. Ever get or give a hickey... a love-bite... a passion mark? That mark is the result of petechial hemorrhaging. An object scraping across the surface of your skin can cause them. I believe that is what caused the petechial bruising on JonBenet’s neck between where the ligature was first tightened and where it finally came to rest and form the furrow. From "Pathology of Neck Injury," by Peter Vanezis:
"It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."
This accounts for the “areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3x2 inches,” as written in the AR.
Meyer didn’t write the autopsy report to educate the public. In fact, he fought to keep it sealed.
Again thanks gotgum for your enlightening thoughts. I now wonder who leaked the AR.

I think it is obvious that the ligature was placed at the lower part of the neck with a greater angle from front to back and then it was readjusted to the final location with the deep furrow. That readjustment caused abrasions and some of the petechia. The carotid artery supplies blood, so I think the triangular patch was caused when the ligature above it did the most deadly job.

As noted by Peter Vanezis above, it is not uncommon to see more than one ligature mark in "homocides". Question is: would that make sense in a staging scenario? It is just beyond gruesome to think how a parent would cover up an accident (or BDI) by tying a ligature around her neck. To think a loving parent would do it once at the lower location and then come back and readjust it again with greater force is totally inconceivable. Even if it was a "fixer" phoned in by John's lost cel phone, then that "fixer" with his Touch DNA would have to be a genius to make it look like a "homocidal" struggle with more than one ligature line.

I am no medical expert either, but the evidence left by the injuries to the head and neck suggests to me that she was garroted first with some struggle and readjustment of the ligature. Sure you might get some petechia from a weak pumping heart lingering near death in the staging scenario, but you will definitely get petechia, scraping, and that triangular rupture from a homicidal struggle.

Then after the garroting, the head bash occurred with the controlled use of the maglite which from discussions appears to best fit the wound. Sure you might get low blood flow in some head injuries, but you will definitely get it if the heart has already stopped or is lingering near death from the ligature.

Rupe

BrotherMoon

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#719 Sep 12, 2013
Rupert wrote:
<quoted text>
BM, you've heard it from me before, I am fascinated by your theory - the Sandy Stranger thing (especially the pineapple and cream and "posession"). But I repeat the questions I have about why would John go along with it and risk his career? Why would Patsy's sisters and family not suggest any suspicion that would alleviate all this conundrum especially after she has gone since 2006? I think you mentioned incest - how does that fit in?
Rupe
John didn't go along with anything. He deluded himself that his wife was not involved and the intruder is real.

The Paugh girls were raised by a pathological narcissist mother, they aren't likely to invite examination into their disfunctional family. In order to be objective and self reflective enough to see that disfunction they would have to go against the narcissist that had them under her sway. That is dificult even when the narcissist mother is dead.

And that is the major theme of The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie. Jean Brodie is a narcissist and Sandy struggles to break from her influence. She never does completely, instead she undermines her position at the school.

BrotherMoon

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#720 Sep 12, 2013
As for the incest: I think Patsy had latent autoeroticism by proxy with JonBenet. She compulsively touched her privates as a young person touches themselves when their sexual urges emerge in adolescence.

The dogear of the dictionary page was a way of Patsy pointing guilt at Patsy. This was done by a split-off persona, again everything was done by Patsy for Patsy.
Bob

Yellowknife, Canada

#721 Sep 12, 2013
BrotherMoon wrote:
<quoted text>
John didn't go along with anything. He deluded himself that his wife was not involved and the intruder is real.
The Paugh girls were raised by a pathological narcissist mother, they aren't likely to invite examination into their disfunctional family. In order to be objective and self reflective enough to see that disfunction they would have to go against the narcissist that had them under her sway. That is dificult even when the narcissist mother is dead.
And that is the major theme of The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie. Jean Brodie is a narcissist and Sandy struggles to break from her influence. She never does completely, instead she undermines her position at the school.
--Wouldn't Your theory be a (one of a kind )murder anywhere in the world? I've followed you all these years-- but wouldn't someone come forward and mension that Patsy was into this Sandy thing?

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#722 Dec 12, 2013
The real reason no Ramsey was ever charged has finally been given a legal definition, the whole family suffered from ALLFLEUNZA

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/12/the-afflu...

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#725 Dec 12, 2013
Exactly, MJ!
moonjack wrote:
The real reason no Ramsey was ever charged has finally been given a legal definition, the whole family suffered from ALLFLEUNZA
http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/12/12/the-afflu...

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#730 Jan 2, 2014
Imagine if the psychiatric records of the NewTown killer or the Colorado Movie Theater shooter were made off limits to investigators of those crimes. Not that what Burke did is anywhere near the level of insanity but that type of mental health nformation is intergral to understanding what was so terribly wrong in the Ramsey home.
Mr Blue

Vancouver, Canada

#731 Jan 2, 2014
Old South wrote:
<quoted text>
It's pretty obvious, Candy. He needs first to call Dad and get an attorney by his side.
Where have you been old school friend?
signal

Fullerton, CA

#732 Jan 3, 2014
my message on this thread from yesterday as well as two messages a few days a go on this thread regarding burke's innocence were erased. feeling this morning that although the messages were erased the messages were also received and that is all that was asked of me therefore i am at peace with that

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#733 Jan 4, 2014
Uh huh, did your Rice Krispies tell you that after they asked you to post?

"... feeling this morning that although the messages were erased the messages were also received and that is all that was asked of me therefore i am at peace with that..."
Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#735 Jan 7, 2014
Why do most people assume that John or Patsy had a chance to resuscitate Jonbenet when they were finally alerted to the situation?

Is it possible that Burke did hit Jonbenet over the head with an object, knocking her unconscious. Being a young child, since there is no blood, he thinks there is little damage to her. He plays his games or whatever has his interest at the time. Later, noticing that she has not changed positions since he struck her, he tries to awaken her--to no avail. Frightened, and in an effort to awaken her, he grabs her shirt, twisting it, shakes her violently. Thus, unintentionally, choking the last of the life from her body.

When Patsy is alerted, it is much too late to save her daughter. So there can be no mad rush to the hospital ER. Her only consideration now is whether she alerts the authorities to the situation, or covers her son's actions. Nothing is going to bring back her daughter.

I think Patsy was ware of the games Burke played with his sister and I think John may have been alerted by Patsy to the situation, but did not offer his support in the matter.

And for those who will remind me that Burke was exonerated, if you read Kolar's book, you will find that the DA marked out some of the wording that the Ramsey lawyers had used. Leaving room for authorities to revisit to Burke as the perpetrator.

Just Wondering

Sophia, WV

#736 Jan 7, 2014
signal wrote:
my message on this thread from yesterday as well as two messages a few days a go on this thread regarding burke's innocence were erased. feeling this morning that although the messages were erased the messages were also received and that is all that was asked of me therefore i am at peace with that
I am an RDI and something similar happened with me. I would type my post or reply and hit the "post" button, but my comment would not show up. I have made it a habit to copy my post now before I hit the "send" button. Now I do not have to retype the entire post again should it be lost.

I think all of us, RDIs, enjoy reading IDIs posts. It gives us something to deliberate about and a lot to dispel.:)

Have a great day.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#737 Jan 7, 2014
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
I am an RDI and something similar happened with me. I would type my post or reply and hit the "post" button, but my comment would not show up. I have made it a habit to copy my post now before I hit the "send" button. Now I do not have to retype the entire post again should it be lost.
I think all of us, RDIs, enjoy reading IDIs posts. It gives us something to deliberate about and a lot to dispel.:)
Have a great day.
It's always a good idea to copy any posts, whether yours or not in case they disappear, etc. In many cases as we have seen and are going through now, but for the actions of one or a few spammers and trolls, topix just ends up removing an entire thread and they don't really care if one is IDI or RDI LOL. Although here, our trolls and spammers tend to be IDI, topix doesn't seem to discriminate as you said.

Posting nonsense and spamming is not relegated to anyone's opinion of the JBR case

So that said, always copy a post that you think is important and worthy because we never know when it will go away

And yes, I think we have all lost posts that didn't come up and been frustrated LOL so it is a good idea to do what you do as well. Once it happens to you once or twice, you become more careful LOL

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