Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#688 Sep 8, 2013
Evidence suggests the head trauma was first. An injury of that magnitude is lethal without medical intervention. She was instantly unconscious and slowly dying, her body was shutting down - S L O W L Y. Her breathing would have been labored at first, momentarily and then almost nonexistent. She may have gone into convulsions, even vomited by reflex. Her heart rate as well would have raced for a minute or two and then gone down to maybe 20 beats a minute, unable to palpate. Her temperature would have dropped and her skin would have felt cold, not warm like a wiggling happy baby. It would have required medical instruments to measure vital signs and confirm she was alive. Death is not always an immediate cessation of life. When they Ďpull the plugí and take people off ventilators it can take hours.

The time frame between when this catastrophic brain injury occurred and the final strangulation killed her has a time span of an hour or two, maybe even three. Had the exact same injury occurred to an elderly person or an adult with a compromised health situation their body may not have Ďstayed aliveí. To be so young is usually to be in pristine optimal health. Thatís why pediatrics is a speciality in medicine, the human growth process and hormones change the rules of engagement for illness.

There was extensive bleeding in her brain. This is represented by the bruising, tissue saturated with blood. There was a small amount of blood measured at autopsy but there is no way to measure the quantity represented by the purple discoloration. Her heart was not pumping away fiercely, she was basically in limbo, akin to hibernation. The hair style with a scrunchie is a possible explanation for why the skin didnít break, but the reality of all head injuries and brain trauma is they are precarious and no two are ever alike or predictable.

Evidence also suggests the head trauma was first because of the peculiar dynamics of the family. These were emotionally unstable children who did not use the toilet for BMs. With two kids suffering this crisis level behavior it was a living zoo with corresponding animalistic behavior such as Burke clubbing Jonbenet on the head as he had done previously. Adding the emotional stress of the holidays, Johnís divorce with blended family relationships, Patsyís cancer, and half sister Bethís death makes it a surprise something hadnít happened sooner and there was only one murder victim.

The reason for the childrenís emotional situation canít be fully evaluated without Ramsey participation, the documents of Burkeís psychiatric care from before the death and honesty which the Ramseys havenít provided, itís too emotionally charged for them to discuss. Jonbenetís autopsy showed sheíd been the victim of repeated sexual abuse with physical changes and damage to the anatomy. Itís easy to relate this as the direct cause for her encopresis. Burke likely was also a victim of childhood sexual assault but itís too dark of a shameful secret for the family to make public. Much effort has gone in to hiding the reality of mental illness in the Ramsey children but truth is like gravity. Itís there and the lies fall eventually.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#689 Sep 8, 2013
If the dictionary was opened to the word incest perhaps John and Patsy were trying to understand or even disaffirm the sexual abuse of their two small children by the teenage half brother. Is it technically or legally incest if they are only half siblings?

IMO John Andrew Ramsey is the one most likely responsible for any sexual activity or experimentation or wrongdoing with these two children while they were small.

Something by somebody happened that was evil and criminal and wrong and socially unacceptable and morally reprehensible long before Jonbenet's death and it precipitated the uncontrollable rage and juvenile behavior by Burke that ultimately killed her.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#690 Sep 8, 2013
Burke is cleared.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#691 Sep 8, 2013
BrotherMoon wrote:
Burke is cleared.
and?
Rupert

Canada

#692 Sep 8, 2013
Moonjack,

Thanks for your extensive reply. Your take on the head bash is interesting and you seem confident in your knowledge about the medical conditions. I got your point on saturation of the blood into the tissue and understand you are suggesting that is where some of the blood went. I'm no head surgeon and maybe that part of the head doesn't bleed so much. I was also aware that a doctor from Denver had stated that some brain injuries just don't bleed that much.

However, reciprocating the low blood loss was the extensive amount of petechia. You don't get that without the heart pumping hard to live. Also, you can see clearly in the photos where the ligature was forcefully yanked up, causing abrasions.

One thing I can't figure out is that triangular abrasion. I quote from the autopsy:

"A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck."

"The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the lower midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of .75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral."

Meyer called it an abrasion, but to me that triangular patch is clearly a burst artery (perhaps even the jugular). I don't have the photo at hand, but another rope strangulation had the exact same triangular shape and rust coloration. I have not seen much talk about the "triangular abrasion" and can't imagine what it could have been caused by. I showed it to my wife who is a nurse and she said maybe an abrasion from a finger or thumb, but she also said subsurface blood forced to the surface would look like that. Maybe Meyer misinterpreted the burst artery for an "abrasion".

Any thoughts on the petechia and "triangular abrasion"?

While I can't see any Ramsey capable of doing the ghastly garrot staging, I admit a "fixer" with clean DNA would fit with that lost cel phone. One of Thomas big beefs with Hunter was the decline to warrant obtaining the cel phone records.

Rupe

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#693 Sep 8, 2013
Nobody can ever be legally cleared until another is charged and found guilty. This is an open case with no charges filed. There has been no testimony from Burke or John presented in Superior Court.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#694 Sep 8, 2013
The strangulation came first leaving the lower bruises on the neck. The neck ligature was later applied to raise the body along with the wrist ligature to raise the arms. The blow to the head came after the initial strangulation.

There was only slight internal bleeding and swelling and no external swelling indicating lack of heart action due to asphixiation from the intial strangulation.

Although the neck ligature certainly would have strangled that was not it's purpose, posing was.

Since: Jul 10

Location hidden

#695 Sep 8, 2013
Rupert wrote:
Moonjack,
Thanks for your extensive reply. Your take on the head bash is interesting and you seem confident in your knowledge about the medical conditions. I got your point on saturation of the blood into the tissue and understand you are suggesting that is where some of the blood went. I'm no head surgeon and maybe that part of the head doesn't bleed so much. I was also aware that a doctor from Denver had stated that some brain injuries just don't bleed that much.

However, reciprocating the low blood loss was the extensive amount of petechia. You don't get that without the heart pumping hard to live. Also, you can see clearly in the photos where the ligature was forcefully yanked up, causing abrasions.
One thing I can't figure out is that triangular abrasion. I quote from the autopsy:
"A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck."
"The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the lower midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of .75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral."
Meyer called it an abrasion, but to me that triangular patch is clearly a burst artery (perhaps even the jugular). I don't have the photo at hand, but another rope strangulation had the exact same triangular shape and rust coloration. I have not seen much talk about the "triangular abrasion" and can't imagine what it could have been caused by. I showed it to my wife who is a nurse and she said maybe an abrasion from a finger or thumb, but she also said subsurface blood forced to the surface would look like that. Maybe Meyer misinterpreted the burst artery for an "abrasion".
Any thoughts on the petechia and "triangular abrasion"?
While I can't see any Ramsey capable of doing the ghastly garrot staging, I admit a "fixer" with clean DNA would fit with that lost cel phone. One of Thomas big beefs with Hunter was the decline to warrant obtaining the cel phone records.
Rupe
The head and subsequently neck have more vascular network than the rest of the body. All head injuries can bleed profusely making many appear far worse than they are and vice versa. The brain is more dependent on oxygenated blood than any other organ. The two carotid arteries support the immense need. That is also why the neck appears to injured even thought she was already almost dead. That is also why petechia appeared, the heart did not need to be pumping at full force, just pumping, and it was.

As for the triangular abrasion, I'd need to see what sort of necklace and jewelry she wore at the White's to make a thorough determination.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#697 Sep 8, 2013
There was very little internal bleeding pinkerpooper and no external swelling. That means a strangulation came first.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#698 Sep 8, 2013
BrotherMoon wrote:
Burke is cleared.
Uh, says who? Garnett has NEVER, EVER said that, and his opinion is the only one that matters.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#699 Sep 8, 2013
I'd love to see that creepy picture of Burke, grinning ear to ear, two days after his sister was brutally murdered, next to the devastated pictures of his parents. I agree with Kolar about how alarming that is.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#700 Sep 8, 2013
Kolar is a goofball and Burke is cleared vy the original investigators and Hunter.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#701 Sep 8, 2013
BrotherMoon wrote:
Kolar is a goofball and Burke is cleared vy the original investigators and Hunter.
LOL! Lin Wood wrote the affidavit clearing Burke that Hunter signed. It means nothing.

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

#702 Sep 8, 2013
BrotherMoon wrote:
Kolar is a goofball and Burke is cleared vy the original investigators and Hunter.
Burke was too young to be charged.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#703 Sep 9, 2013
moonjack wrote:
Nobody can ever be legally cleared until another is charged and found guilty. This is an open case with no charges filed. There has been no testimony from Burke or John presented in Superior Court.
This sums it all up MJ; thanks!

As once was stated: Anyone can be UNcleared until this case is solved.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#704 Sep 9, 2013
Please provide the evidence Burke was involved.

Since: May 13

Location hidden

#705 Sep 9, 2013
Rupert wrote:
One thing I can't figure out is that triangular abrasion. I quote from the autopsy:
"A prominent dried abrasion was present on the lower left neck."
"The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of the lower midline, a roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion which measures 1.5 inches in length with a maximum width of .75 inches. This roughly triangular shaped abrasion is obliquely oriented with the apex superior and lateral."
Meyer called it an abrasion, but to me that triangular patch is clearly a burst artery (perhaps even the jugular). I don't have the photo at hand, but another rope strangulation had the exact same triangular shape and rust coloration. I have not seen much talk about the "triangular abrasion" and can't imagine what it could have been caused by. I showed it to my wife who is a nurse and she said maybe an abrasion from a finger or thumb, but she also said subsurface blood forced to the surface would look like that. Maybe Meyer misinterpreted the burst artery for an "abrasion".
Any thoughts on the petechia and "triangular abrasion"?
The reddish triangular area shown in the autopsy photos and described in the autopsy report is caused by the rupture of a blood vessel (or a number of small capillaries) in the area of the base of the "carotid triangle". As these vessels bled outward from the center of the traumatized area along the subcutaneous layer, the blood would be slightly restricted within the carotid triangle due to the defining musculature, and eventually work its way upward as it begins to trail off toward the apex of the triangle and end at where the ligature furrow is. The "parchment-like" appearance is from the accumulated blood just under the surface of the skin. This kind of mark is sometimes seen in other pictures of people who died from ligature strangulation.
quitemad

Winnipeg, Canada

#706 Sep 9, 2013
moonjack wrote:
There are 2 types, one is voluntary with an emotional component and the other is due to physical reasons or limitations with a different treatment modality and outcome.
I've never known a single child to suffer this rare disease yet the IDIs families are full of them.
I agree, Moonjack, and I don't doubt for a minute that someone in the Ramsay family was the killer. I have always believed it to be Burke. I however believe it is because he was jealous of JonBenet and all the attention she received and he just snapped one day. As the mother of someone with encopresis, I had just wanted to set the record straight on some of the causes of it. But I am a RDI believer.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

#707 Sep 9, 2013
Burke was cleared.

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#708 Sep 10, 2013
quitemad wrote:
<quoted text>I agree, Moonjack, and I don't doubt for a minute that someone in the Ramsay family was the killer. I have always believed it to be Burke. I however believe it is because he was jealous of JonBenet and all the attention she received and he just snapped one day. As the mother of someone with encopresis, I had just wanted to set the record straight on some of the causes of it. But I am a RDI believer.
I too, agree with MJ and have no doubt that one of the Ramseys committed this crime and it was staged and covered up.

That said, I am a BDI and the reasons you have provided may be true, but I don't believe that any of those reasons led to any sort of planned murder, etc. I do believe that those reasons you listed are valid and there was no real "kinship" for lack of a better word between JBR and her brother Burke.

I think Burke did resent her and was neglected in all the ways that count in favor of the fussing over JBR and while he was probably NOT attached to his sister and found her to be a nuisance and the prevention of his own needs, I don't think he planned anything and the death of JBR was the result of anger turned deadly but NOT planned or intentional. I think the rest is just cover up by the parents to protect him.

There are many details that we don't know but I do believe BDI in a fit of rage for any variety of reasons that a sister would anger a brother, but I don't think it was planned or intended to actually kill her.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

JonBenet Ramsey Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
ICU2 's Child Trafficking 22 min ICU2 21
Fleet and Priscilla White on Peter Boyles show ... 10 hr Passion 43
Note-odd detail? 16 hr JBI 2,403
JonBenet Investigation (Nov '11) Tue JBI 1,629
JonBenet Ramsey, DNA and the Phantom of Heilbronn Dec 22 Bakatari 6
The Forgotten Suspect Dec 22 Legal__Eagle 227
"Note-Free Case Discussion" Dec 22 Legal__Eagle 99
More from around the web