Since: Nov 13

Location hidden

#42 Nov 29, 2013
JimmyWells wrote:
Evidence tampering, perjury, obstruction were all charges that could have been applied from the minute the police showed up on that doorstep.
I don't know how you can't see the garrote being a diversion. Without it you have a girl with a cracked skull and evidence of sexual assault lying in her basement. Wouldn't you think that would have raised a few more eyebrows than the other scenario?<quoted text>
Right, so rather than risk being indicted for murder, or accessory to murder, they'd have taken the lesser charges, and they could do that anytime they wanted to give up their charade about the intruder which kept them under the "umbrella of suspicion". It was never to late to stop facing much more serious charges.
I guess I don't see the garrotte as a diversion because the head wound wasn't visible, so who's being diverted, and for what? Why divert from a wound that can't be seen until she's on the autopsy table?
W/o the garrotte, but before autopsy, there would be a lifeless girl (probably) with no visible indication of the COD, no evidence of sexual assault, until the autopsy. IMO the RN doesn't make it look any less like one of the parents did it than if there were no note.
The RN suggests Jonbenet has been kidnapped. When the body is found, it's quite obvious she hasn't been. Even w/o knowing what killed her, and w/o knowing about the SA, it looks like she was killed by a family member and a phoney kidnapping was staged. Or partly staged.
Do you think the garrotte made the RN more believable? I don't.

Since: Nov 13

Location hidden

#43 Nov 29, 2013
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you're sayng that these parents wouldn't cover up a major scandal involving molestation which resulted in death; a scandal which would haunt their only child for the rest of his life?
With the money available to hire the best attorneys, and not realizing this case would become internationally famous, I would say it very probable that THESE parents would attempt such a thing.
If these parents did cover for their child, I would imagine the general public could sympathize. So, what additional scandal would this theory really add, if their cover-up had been uncovered? The only additional scandal would have been that these parents threw other people under the bus in order to carry out the coverup.
So, you're sayng that these parents wouldn't cover up a major scandal involving molestation which resulted in death; a scandal which would haunt their only child for the rest of his life?
Not with another scandal, no. Or don't you see going to prison as scandalous?
With the money available to hire the best attorneys, and not realizing this case would become internationally famous, I would say it very probable that THESE parents would attempt such a thing.
If there was absolutely no danger to John and Patsy I might agree. As we know the GJ voted to indict and the charges were serious. People don't go to prison when there is no need to do so, and going to prison is in and of itself scandalous. Not to mention they loose custody of Burke and loose their business. IMO it's not very likely at all they'd choose that route if it really was BDI.
If these parents did cover for their child, I would imagine the general public could sympathize. So, what additional scandal would this theory really add, if their cover-up had been uncovered? The only additional scandal would have been that these parents threw other people under the bus in order to carry out the coverup.
That's the point, there is a scandal either way. Even if they thought there'd never be a story about this crime outside of Boulder, the BDI theory has them going off to prison to avoid a "scandal". So what does this plan achieve? It gives them the scandal they are supposedly trying to avoid (so we can dismiss the theory as nonsense already) plus they loose Burke and their million dollar business.

Face it, there is no way to salvage BDI and make any sense of it at all.

Since: Nov 13

Location hidden

#44 Nov 29, 2013
Additionally, if it was BDI it could be passed of as a childish accident. If JR/PR are going off to prison to "cover" for BR then everyone thinks they had something to do with causing the death, or at least not preventing the death, of their daughter. Isn't that more scandalous than a childish accident?

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#45 Nov 29, 2013
Fingering your sister is a childish accident?
Delta88 wrote:
Additionally, if it was BDI it could be passed of as a childish accident. If JR/PR are going off to prison to "cover" for BR then everyone thinks they had something to do with causing the death, or at least not preventing the death, of their daughter. Isn't that more scandalous than a childish accident?

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#46 Nov 29, 2013
You simply don't get it and I'm not going to keep explaining it to you. This is a BDI thread. If you are not a believer in that scenario there are other threads you can post in. Apparently you think the initial discovery of the body is the end all and be all of a murder investigation and any diversion would have to be established at that very instance. The Ramsey's needed a cause of death other than that of the head wound. There had to be a causal relationship or time constraints between the sexual abuse and the head wound. Now whether Patsy threw her in to the corner of the sink or Burke hit her in the head with a golf club is irrelevant. What's relevant is she was not taken to the ER simply because she previously (Within minutes) incurred vaginal intrusion. I find the BDI scenario due to his mental health history and past indiscretions with golf clubs. If you do not agree with that I do not care. Nothing you write will sway my rationale so don't waste your time.
Delta88 wrote:
<quoted text>
Right, so rather than risk being indicted for murder, or accessory to murder, they'd have taken the lesser charges, and they could do that anytime they wanted to give up their charade about the intruder which kept them under the "umbrella of suspicion". It was never to late to stop facing much more serious charges.
I guess I don't see the garrotte as a diversion because the head wound wasn't visible, so who's being diverted, and for what? Why divert from a wound that can't be seen until she's on the autopsy table?
W/o the garrotte, but before autopsy, there would be a lifeless girl (probably) with no visible indication of the COD, no evidence of sexual assault, until the autopsy. IMO the RN doesn't make it look any less like one of the parents did it than if there were no note.
The RN suggests Jonbenet has been kidnapped. When the body is found, it's quite obvious she hasn't been. Even w/o knowing what killed her, and w/o knowing about the SA, it looks like she was killed by a family member and a phoney kidnapping was staged. Or partly staged.
Do you think the garrotte made the RN more believable? I don't.
Gamster

Lansing, MI

#47 Nov 29, 2013
JimmyWells wrote:
Fingering your sister is a childish accident?<quoted text>
No, but hitting her on the head could have been passed off as an accident, even if it wasn't.

If John and Patsy are covering for Burke their involvement can't be passed off as part of kids horsing around.

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#48 Nov 29, 2013
Sure it could have then John would have been arrested for molesting his daughter once the ME concluded his or her examination.
Gamster wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but hitting her on the head could have been passed off as an accident, even if it wasn't.
If John and Patsy are covering for Burke their involvement can't be passed off as part of kids horsing around.

Since: Feb 12

Pearl City, HI

#49 Nov 29, 2013
Delta88 wrote:
<quoted text>'
'
Who said anything about more than 3? Or even as many as 3? Or even 2?
ALL of the ntruder believers said more than 3. They think the Rams are innocent, so if that is the case, it is a given that JBR didn't commit suicide.
CC
Gamster

Lansing, MI

#50 Nov 29, 2013
JimmyWells wrote:
You simply don't get it and I'm not going to keep explaining it to you. This is a BDI thread. If you are not a believer in that scenario there are other threads you can post in. Apparently you think the initial discovery of the body is the end all and be all of a murder investigation and any diversion would have to be established at that very instance. The Ramsey's needed a cause of death other than that of the head wound. There had to be a causal relationship or time constraints between the sexual abuse and the head wound. Now whether Patsy threw her in to the corner of the sink or Burke hit her in the head with a golf club is irrelevant. What's relevant is she was not taken to the ER simply because she previously (Within minutes) incurred vaginal intrusion. I find the BDI scenario due to his mental health history and past indiscretions with golf clubs. If you do not agree with that I do not care. Nothing you write will sway my rationale so don't waste your time. <quoted text>
If I was concerned about using my time wisely I certainly wouldn't be here.(note to self)

Since this is, as you point out, a BDI thread, it seems the perfect place to question the validity of BDI theory. Or is it a thread only for true believers? Sorry if I wandered into a faith based theory of the case.

Why did "The Rs" need a COD besides the head wound? The plan, apparently, was to stage a phoney kidnapping, along with dumping the body. So an additional COD really isn't needed. The body would be found, dead, outside the home. The death would be blamed on the kidnappers.

But maybe you think the killer was staging a kidnapping gone bad? If so why does the garrotte make this more believable? The police don't need to see the COD to know she's dead. The garrotte doesn't divert the coroner, obviously. Do you think the police are supposed to take IDI theory more seriously because of the garrotte?

I agree it's relevant that she wasn't taken to the ER. If it really had been BDI, then almost certainly an ambulance would have been called. The head wound wasn't visible so the adults couldn't be absolutely certain there was no hope for her. But even if they felt sure she was dead and wanted to blame it on a kidnapping gone bad, why do they need another COD? The kidnapper molested her and killed her with a blow to the head, so the story would go.

Since it's unlikely she was hit with the golf club I don't see the relevance of the prior incident with a golf club. An incident by the way which must have produced a cut, as JBR needed plastic surgery to prevent scaring. The bash to her skull produced no cut.

Since: Nov 13

Location hidden

#51 Nov 29, 2013
Sorry, forgot to sign in. That's why it says Gamester.

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#52 Nov 29, 2013
Please allow myself to introduce myself.(Note to self)
Gamster wrote:
<quoted text>
If I was concerned about using my time wisely I certainly wouldn't be here.(note to self)
Since this is, as you point out, a BDI thread, it seems the perfect place to question the validity of BDI theory. Or is it a thread only for true believers? Sorry if I wandered into a faith based theory of the case.
Why did "The Rs" need a COD besides the head wound? The plan, apparently, was to stage a phoney kidnapping, along with dumping the body. So an additional COD really isn't needed. The body would be found, dead, outside the home. The death would be blamed on the kidnappers.
But maybe you think the killer was staging a kidnapping gone bad? If so why does the garrotte make this more believable? The police don't need to see the COD to know she's dead. The garrotte doesn't divert the coroner, obviously. Do you think the police are supposed to take IDI theory more seriously because of the garrotte?
I agree it's relevant that she wasn't taken to the ER. If it really had been BDI, then almost certainly an ambulance would have been called. The head wound wasn't visible so the adults couldn't be absolutely certain there was no hope for her. But even if they felt sure she was dead and wanted to blame it on a kidnapping gone bad, why do they need another COD? The kidnapper molested her and killed her with a blow to the head, so the story would go.
Since it's unlikely she was hit with the golf club I don't see the relevance of the prior incident with a golf club. An incident by the way which must have produced a cut, as JBR needed plastic surgery to prevent scaring. The bash to her skull produced no cut.

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#53 Nov 29, 2013
Delta88 wrote:
Additionally, if it was BDI it could be passed of as a childish accident. If JR/PR are going off to prison to "cover" for BR then everyone thinks they had something to do with causing the death, or at least not preventing the death, of their daughter. Isn't that more scandalous than a childish accident?
If the head blow was the starting point, then any flavor of RDI one prefers could have been passed off as an “accident.” They could have even staged a JonbenetDI – she fell down the spiral stairs in the middle of the night while everyone was sleeping, and was found hours-or-so later.

However you look at it, the potential for “scandal” was there, but all the Ramseys needed to do was claim some kind of accident, lawyer up, lie, avoid the authorities and move outta Dodge.
...

AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#54 Nov 29, 2013
JimmyWells wrote:
You simply don't get it and I'm not going to keep explaining it to you. This is a BDI thread. If you are not a believer in that scenario there are other threads you can post in. Apparently you think the initial discovery of the body is the end all and be all of a murder investigation and any diversion would have to be established at that very instance. The Ramsey's needed a cause of death other than that of the head wound. There had to be a causal relationship or time constraints between the sexual abuse and the head wound. Now whether Patsy threw her in to the corner of the sink or Burke hit her in the head with a golf club is irrelevant. What's relevant is she was not taken to the ER simply because she previously (Within minutes) incurred vaginal intrusion. I find the BDI scenario due to his mental health history and past indiscretions with golf clubs. If you do not agree with that I do not care. Nothing you write will sway my rationale so don't waste your time. <quoted text>
The Ramseys believed the head wound was the cause of death, but they didn’t want anyone to know that it was the cause of death, so they faked a cause of death? I hope I read this wrong! What?
...

AK

Since: Nov 13

Location hidden

#55 Nov 29, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
If the head blow was the starting point, then any flavor of RDI one prefers could have been passed off as an “accident.” They could have even staged a JonbenetDI – she fell down the spiral stairs in the middle of the night while everyone was sleeping, and was found hours-or-so later.
However you look at it, the potential for “scandal” was there, but all the Ramseys needed to do was claim some kind of accident, lawyer up, lie, avoid the authorities and move outta Dodge.
...
AK
It probably couldn't be passed off as a fall down the stairs, or something like that, a coroner would be able to tell. It would be hard to explain an adult "accidentally" bashing her skull. Kids horsing around and things got out of hand is, imo, the only accident scenario that is believable.

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#56 Nov 29, 2013
Delta88 wrote:
<quoted text>
It probably couldn't be passed off as a fall down the stairs, or something like that, a coroner would be able to tell. It would be hard to explain an adult "accidentally" bashing her skull. Kids horsing around and things got out of hand is, imo, the only accident scenario that is believable.
The Ramseys would not have known what an autopsy would reveal. They would have known that she suffered a massive blow, and they – I guess – would have known that she would not recover from that blow; but, there were no visible signs of injury.

If the head blow was the starting point, then explaining the head blow should have been the Ramseys starting point. But, we see nothing that explains this; no attempt. This can be explained by saying that the Ramseys did not know, or comprehend, what the autopsy would reveal.

If the Ramseys did not know, or fully comprehend what the autopsy would reveal, and if the head blow was the starting point, then the Ramseys could have simply said, should have said, we don’t know what happened, we found her at the bottom of the stairs; I was practicing my golf swing and she got in the way and it was a terrible accident; etc.; then, lawyer up, lie, avoid the authorities and move outta Dodge.
...

AK

Since: Feb 12

Pearl City, HI

#57 Nov 30, 2013
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
If the head blow was the starting point, then any flavor of RDI one prefers could have been passed off as an “accident.” They could have even staged a JonbenetDI – she fell down the spiral stairs in the middle of the night while everyone was sleeping, and was found hours-or-so later.
However you look at it, the potential for “scandal” was there, but all the Ramseys needed to do was claim some kind of accident, lawyer up, lie, avoid the authorities and move outta Dodge.
...
AK
Hi AK.
Dunno. A 40 pound child falls down some steps and gets an 8 inch skull fracture? That would take a LOT of foot pounds of force! Basically, going by the photos of the skull fracture, it looks like JBR was hit on the TOP of her head. I don't think anyone falling down some steps would hit their head on the top.

Take a look!
https://www.google.com/search...

I think she was either struck by the object, or thrown against it.
CC
CC

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#58 Nov 30, 2013
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi AK.
Dunno. A 40 pound child falls down some steps and gets an 8 inch skull fracture? That would take a LOT of foot pounds of force! Basically, going by the photos of the skull fracture, it looks like JBR was hit on the TOP of her head. I don't think anyone falling down some steps would hit their head on the top.
Take a look!
https://www.google.com/search...
I think she was either struck by the object, or thrown against it.
CC
CC
The falling down the stairs theory has been done more than once here many years ago as you know, to no avail

However it may have happened, accident or not, if death occurs, there WILL be an autopsy and they have to then come up with an explanation for the internal vaginal priors.

IF they try and stage an "accident", and the police investigators then determine it was NOT an accident from autopsy.....there is no place further to look than within the three Ramseys.

So, IMO, the "accident" and calling 911 was not a viable option for the Ramseys

The route they chose left them with the explanation of an intruder, an explanation they would never have with an "accident"

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

Location hidden

#59 Nov 30, 2013
No they didn't fake strangle anyone, it happened. You may not have read my post wrong but your reply certainly was.
Anti-K wrote:
<quoted text>
The Ramseys believed the head wound was the cause of death, but they didn’t want anyone to know that it was the cause of death, so they faked a cause of death? I hope I read this wrong! What?
...
AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#60 Nov 30, 2013
Bakatari wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi AK.
Dunno. A 40 pound child falls down some steps and gets an 8 inch skull fracture? That would take a LOT of foot pounds of force! Basically, going by the photos of the skull fracture, it looks like JBR was hit on the TOP of her head. I don't think anyone falling down some steps would hit their head on the top.
Take a look!
https://www.google.com/search...
I think she was either struck by the object, or thrown against it.
CC
CC
Yes, I understand.

However, the point is that the Ramseys would not have known what an autopsy would reveal. There wasn’t a mark on her. They could have easily made up an accident story of some kind; then, lawyer up, refuse to cooperate and move outta Dodge.
...

AK

Since: Oct 08

Grande Prairie, Canada

#61 Nov 30, 2013
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
The falling down the stairs theory has been done more than once here many years ago as you know, to no avail
However it may have happened, accident or not, if death occurs, there WILL be an autopsy and they have to then come up with an explanation for the internal vaginal priors.
IF they try and stage an "accident", and the police investigators then determine it was NOT an accident from autopsy.....there is no place further to look than within the three Ramseys.
So, IMO, the "accident" and calling 911 was not a viable option for the Ramseys
The route they chose left them with the explanation of an intruder, an explanation they would never have with an "accident"
Yes, well, no one has shown that the Ramseys or anyone else was aware of any prior abuse, or that they had any reason to fear such a thing being revealed at autopsy.

What I don’t understand is this: supposedly the Ramseys were afraid that prior abuse would be discovered upon autopsy. Prior abuse, some say, was discovered upon autopsy. This means that the Ramseys failed to cover up prior abuse. How have the Ramseys dealt with the discovery of prior abuse; because, that’s all they had to be prepared to do from the beginning?
...

AK

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