Urine Stain, blood stains and Wipe Down

Urine Stain, blood stains and Wipe Down

Posted in the JonBenet Ramsey Forum

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learnin

Alma, KS

#1 Feb 22, 2011
I'm thinking out loud here. There was a urine stain on the basement carpet. There was a urine stain on the longjohns. There were blood stains on the panties. There was blood in the crotch, and on the thighs that was wiped away by an object which left fibers.

Follow me here. The general concensus is that JBR was lying face down on the basement carpet when she was strangled with the ligature. This is when she voided and stained her clothing and carpet with urine. Yet there is no blood stain on the carpet or longjohns.

I'm sure many of you have gone through all of this before but what exactly does this mean?

If JBR was sexually assaulted before the ligature was tied, why no blood on the longjohns and carpet?

Doesn't this mean she was sexually assaulted after the ligature was tied and then wiped down before redressing? If so, the sexual penetration happened just after death. If this is the case, was the unknown DNA on the cloth used to wipe her down?
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#2 Feb 22, 2011
learnin wrote:
I'm thinking out loud here. There was a urine stain on the basement carpet. There was a urine stain on the longjohns. There were blood stains on the panties. There was blood in the crotch, and on the thighs that was wiped away by an object which left fibers.
Follow me here. The general concensus is that JBR was lying face down on the basement carpet when she was strangled with the ligature. This is when she voided and stained her clothing and carpet with urine. Yet there is no blood stain on the carpet or longjohns.
I'm sure many of you have gone through all of this before but what exactly does this mean?
If JBR was sexually assaulted before the ligature was tied, why no blood on the longjohns and carpet?
Doesn't this mean she was sexually assaulted after the ligature was tied and then wiped down before redressing? If so, the sexual penetration happened just after death. If this is the case, was the unknown DNA on the cloth used to wipe her down?
Hi Learnin,
That is very interesting.
I don't think JB was sexually assaulted, although the autopsy stated "epithelial erosion" in her vagina.

My reasoning on this is very similar to ST's theory that she wet her bed before being killed, which explains the empty bladder in the autopsy, with no urine puddle or deposit anywhere to be found. Of course, she could have gone to the bathroom and urinated before being killed also, but the wiping of the crotch area hints to me, that she at least wet her pants if not her bed. This would mean they redressed her into the dry clothing, as her panties and longjohns were not soaked with urine.

I think the sex assault was staged.
CC
learnin

Alma, KS

#3 Feb 22, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Learnin,
That is very interesting.
I don't think JB was sexually assaulted, although the autopsy stated "epithelial erosion" in her vagina.
My reasoning on this is very similar to ST's theory that she wet her bed before being killed, which explains the empty bladder in the autopsy, with no urine puddle or deposit anywhere to be found. Of course, she could have gone to the bathroom and urinated before being killed also, but the wiping of the crotch area hints to me, that she at least wet her pants if not her bed. This would mean they redressed her into the dry clothing, as her panties and longjohns were not soaked with urine.
I think the sex assault was staged.
CC
I believe the sexual assault was staged, too. Whether staged or not, the vagina was penetrated that night. It is my understanding that the longjohns were urine stained and the basement carpet was, also, urine stained which means JBR voided in the basement. She might have had a bed wetting incident upstairs but it seems that she also voided in the basement during attack.
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#5 Feb 22, 2011
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe the sexual assault was staged, too. Whether staged or not, the vagina was penetrated that night. It is my understanding that the longjohns were urine stained and the basement carpet was, also, urine stained which means JBR voided in the basement. She might have had a bed wetting incident upstairs but it seems that she also voided in the basement during attack.
That would depend on the size of the urine stains. I think JB urinated in bed, but they changed the bedding. While the longjohns and her panties were urine stained the rest of her clothing was not, and there was the blood stains, so if urinating during the attack, the blood stain would be extremely minimal unless it was a LOT of blood which I doubt.
CC
Biz

Brandon, FL

#6 Feb 22, 2011
learnin wrote:
I'm thinking out loud here. There was a urine stain on the basement carpet. There was a urine stain on the longjohns. There were blood stains on the panties. There was blood in the crotch, and on the thighs that was wiped away by an object which left fibers.
Follow me here. The general concensus is that JBR was lying face down on the basement carpet when she was strangled with the ligature. This is when she voided and stained her clothing and carpet with urine. Yet there is no blood stain on the carpet or longjohns.
I'm sure many of you have gone through all of this before but whatut exactly does this mean?
If JBR was sexually assaulted before the ligature was tied, why no blood on the longjohns and carpet?
Doesn't this mean she was sexually assaulted after the ligature was tied and then wiped down before redressing? If so, the sexual penetration happened just after death. If this is the case, was the unknown DNA on the cloth used to wipe her down?
good thought but here is your problem. The cloth that wiped her down might have contaminated the panty DNA but then it would not match the touch DNA found through "force" of pulling down the thermal pants. It would not match the markers found in the fingernails.
As for the blood, my belief is that there was no blood on the longjohns and carpet because there was very little blood. There was only the one small drop on the panties. This likely leaked down later after the molestation.
deb

Minneapolis, MN

#7 Feb 22, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Learnin,
That is very interesting.
I don't think JB was sexually assaulted, although the autopsy stated "epithelial erosion" in her vagina.
My reasoning on this is very similar to ST's theory that she wet her bed before being killed, which explains the empty bladder in the autopsy, with no urine puddle or deposit anywhere to be found. Of course, she could have gone to the bathroom and urinated before being killed also, but the wiping of the crotch area hints to me, that she at least wet her pants if not her bed. This would mean they redressed her into the dry clothing, as her panties and longjohns were not soaked with urine.
I think the sex assault was staged.
CC
OMG - WILL YOU PLEASE READ UP ON THE CASE BEFORE GIVING YOUR IDIOCTIC ASSUMPTIONS??????
Learnin just stated there was urine stains on her clothes.
deb

Minneapolis, MN

#8 Feb 22, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
That would depend on the size of the urine stains. I think JB urinated in bed, but they changed the bedding. While the longjohns and her panties were urine stained the rest of her clothing was not, and there was the blood stains, so if urinating during the attack, the blood stain would be extremely minimal unless it was a LOT of blood which I doubt.
CC
Wrong again, and again, and again, and again!!!!

The rest of her clothing?????????? Ah, you mean her shirt?

Why would a blood stain be minimal if she urinated????????
deb

Minneapolis, MN

#9 Feb 22, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Learnin,
That is very interesting.
I don't think JB was sexually assaulted, although the autopsy stated "epithelial erosion" in her vagina.
My reasoning on this is very similar to ST's theory that she wet her bed before being killed, which explains the empty bladder in the autopsy, with no urine puddle or deposit anywhere to be found. Of course, she could have gone to the bathroom and urinated before being killed also, but the wiping of the crotch area hints to me, that she at least wet her pants if not her bed. This would mean they redressed her into the dry clothing, as her panties and longjohns were not soaked with urine.
I think the sex assault was staged.
CC
No urine deposited anywhere????? Wrong again!
Old South

AOL

#10 Feb 22, 2011
learnin wrote:
I'm thinking out loud here. There was a urine stain on the basement carpet. There was a urine stain on the longjohns. There were blood stains on the panties. There was blood in the crotch, and on the thighs that was wiped away by an object which left fibers.
Follow me here. The general concensus is that JBR was lying face down on the basement carpet when she was strangled with the ligature. This is when she voided and stained her clothing and carpet with urine. Yet there is no blood stain on the carpet or longjohns.
I'm sure many of you have gone through all of this before but what exactly does this mean?
If JBR was sexually assaulted before the ligature was tied, why no blood on the longjohns and carpet?
Doesn't this mean she was sexually assaulted after the ligature was tied and then wiped down before redressing? If so, the sexual penetration happened just after death. If this is the case, was the unknown DNA on the cloth used to wipe her down?
learnin, are you discounting what might be blood evidence on the carpet in her bedroom? There was a plug of carpet removed from beside her bed and from questioning of Patsy, there possibly was blood on JB's pillow case. So if the linens on the bed were changed, surely her pillow case would have been changed, too.

I just can't reconcile the possiblity of blood in her bedroom with any possibility. Her head wound wasn't bleeding openly. And I can't visualize any sexual attack or violation in the bedroom, not so close to Burke and the parents.

What do you make of the evidence in her bedroom?
learnin

Lyndon, KS

#11 Feb 22, 2011
Old South wrote:
<quoted text>
learnin, are you discounting what might be blood evidence on the carpet in her bedroom? There was a plug of carpet removed from beside her bed and from questioning of Patsy, there possibly was blood on JB's pillow case. So if the linens on the bed were changed, surely her pillow case would have been changed, too.
I just can't reconcile the possiblity of blood in her bedroom with any possibility. Her head wound wasn't bleeding openly. And I can't visualize any sexual attack or violation in the bedroom, not so close to Burke and the parents.
What do you make of the evidence in her bedroom?
OS,
You're right about blood on the pillow case and possibly the carpet next to her bed. We don't know if the blood came that night or from a previous night. LE asked Patsy if JBR had nosebleeds, etc. Since JBR was assaulted and killed, it's reasonable to speculate about the blood in the bedroom. I would be inclined to believe it came from a nosebleed after her head was struck if, indeed, the blood came from that night. This could have been cleaned like the blood on her legs, etc.
learnin

Lyndon, KS

#12 Feb 22, 2011
Biz wrote:
<quoted text>
good thought but here is your problem. The cloth that wiped her down might have contaminated the panty DNA but then it would not match the touch DNA found through "force" of pulling down the thermal pants. It would not match the markers found in the fingernails.
As for the blood, my belief is that there was no blood on the longjohns and carpet because there was very little blood. There was only the one small drop on the panties. This likely leaked down later after the molestation.
I was thinking along the lines that, if the cloth did have DNA on it, the handler could have picked up that DNA on his or her fingers and then transferred it to the longjohns when pulling the longjohns back up after cleaning.

But my main purpose in starting this thread is to establish a kind of timeline as to how things went down. I would think that, if JBR had been penetrated prior to the ligature strangulation, that there would have been blood tinged urine on her longjohns and the carpet in the basement. Maybe it was and we are not privy to this but I would imagine not. At any rate, if the panties had blood spots, while longjohns and carpet did not, I would think this meant that the penetration came right after the ligature strangulation, no?
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#13 Feb 23, 2011
deb wrote:
<quoted text>
OMG - WILL YOU PLEASE READ UP ON THE CASE BEFORE GIVING YOUR IDIOCTIC ASSUMPTIONS??????
Learnin just stated there was urine stains on her clothes.
Dear Uncle Chan Fan,
Read up on the case????
Where is your source on the palm print found on the corpse of JB????

Looks like you made it up to send us on a wild goose chase!

The urine stains on the clothes could be ANYTHING depending on how large they are. It could be she wet those clothes, or it could be she wet some other clothes and the urine found in the stains were left over.

Your IDOL,
Uncle Charlie.
Charlie Chan

Lihue, HI

#14 Feb 23, 2011
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
I was thinking along the lines that, if the cloth did have DNA on it, the handler could have picked up that DNA on his or her fingers and then transferred it to the longjohns when pulling the longjohns back up after cleaning.
But my main purpose in starting this thread is to establish a kind of timeline as to how things went down. I would think that, if JBR had been penetrated prior to the ligature strangulation, that there would have been blood tinged urine on her longjohns and the carpet in the basement. Maybe it was and we are not privy to this but I would imagine not. At any rate, if the panties had blood spots, while longjohns and carpet did not, I would think this meant that the penetration came right after the ligature strangulation, no?
Very good thoughts. Obviously, the cloth more than likely contained Ramsey DNA, which was discounted. The blood stains had to be very minimal which would indicate that she was sexually assaulted after she expired. If her hymen was broken when she was living, there would have been a lot more blood, but MAYBE the description they gave might have given us a different picture.
CC

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#15 Feb 23, 2011
Charlie, the longjohns did have urine stains on them most likely from her blader voiding when she was killed.
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Learnin,
That is very interesting.
I don't think JB was sexually assaulted, although the autopsy stated "epithelial erosion" in her vagina.
My reasoning on this is very similar to ST's theory that she wet her bed before being killed, which explains the empty bladder in the autopsy, with no urine puddle or deposit anywhere to be found. Of course, she could have gone to the bathroom and urinated before being killed also, but the wiping of the crotch area hints to me, that she at least wet her pants if not her bed. This would mean they redressed her into the dry clothing, as her panties and longjohns were not soaked with urine.
I think the sex assault was staged.
CC

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#16 Feb 23, 2011
Charlie Chan wrote:
<quoted text>
Dear Uncle Chan Fan,
Read up on the case????
Where is your source on the palm print found on the corpse of JB????
Looks like you made it up to send us on a wild goose chase!
The urine stains on the clothes could be ANYTHING depending on how large they are. It could be she wet those clothes, or it could be she wet some other clothes and the urine found in the stains were left over.
Your IDOL,
Uncle Charlie.
Seems you have risen to having YOUR very own cyberstalker...and a few of them too lol

CC, when she died, her urine was more than likely released from her bladder. No matter how much anyone voids before death, there is always urine left in the bladder and it will be released upon death

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#17 Feb 23, 2011
Sorry Seuss, didn't see your post before I posted my response
learnin

Alma, KS

#18 Feb 23, 2011
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Seems you have risen to having YOUR very own cyberstalker...and a few of them too lol
CC, when she died, her urine was more than likely released from her bladder. No matter how much anyone voids before death, there is always urine left in the bladder and it will be released upon death
Cap, what's your thoughts on how this plays out according to the stains?

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#19 Feb 23, 2011
No problem, same thought process. With the posts sometimes slow showing on the board, it happens to me all the time.
Capricorn wrote:
Sorry Seuss, didn't see your post before I posted my response
Lynette

Alberton, South Africa

#20 Feb 23, 2011
DrSeussMd wrote:
Charlie, the longjohns did have urine stains on them most likely from her blader voiding when she was killed.<quoted text>
See Charlie Chan, you even have the RDI correcting your misinformation now.

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#21 Feb 23, 2011
I don't think anyone minds being corrected Lynette, I know I don't, but it makes a huge difference in the approach, don't you think?
Lynette wrote:
<quoted text> See Charlie Chan, you even have the RDI correcting your misinformation now.

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