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“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

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#1
Aug 17, 2012
 

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BDI, always have been. Anyway, this "Candy Box" in JB's room has been discussed alot lately. We all now know there was fecal material smeared on it. We also know (Allegedly) that there were pj pants on the floor of JB's room that were far to big for JB that also had fecal material in them. I'm wondering if there may have been a situation where Jonbenet was in the "I'm telling" mode regarding the box which provoked Burke into inflicting the head injury. This of course all would have happened with the parents asleep and were awakened by Burke after Jonbenet was unresponsive. I'm just speculating but I think most of us could agree that Jonbenet and Burke were in the same room when her head was bashed. Very odd though if the pj's weren't Burkes. Fist oversized underwear, now oversized pj's?

“YES”

Since: Mar 07

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#2
Aug 17, 2012
 

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JimmyWells wrote:
BDI, always have been. Anyway, this "Candy Box" in JB's room has been discussed alot lately. We all now know there was fecal material smeared on it. We also know (Allegedly) that there were pj pants on the floor of JB's room that were far to big for JB that also had fecal material in them. I'm wondering if there may have been a situation where Jonbenet was in the "I'm telling" mode regarding the box which provoked Burke into inflicting the head injury. This of course all would have happened with the parents asleep and were awakened by Burke after Jonbenet was unresponsive. I'm just speculating but I think most of us could agree that Jonbenet and Burke were in the same room when her head was bashed. Very odd though if the pj's weren't Burkes. Fist oversized underwear, now oversized pj's?
Anything is possible of course Jimmy but as a BDI also, I do not think that whatever happened, happened upstairs, but that is neither here nor there for purposes of the fecal smearing, etc.

The issue of the fecal matter in places that are disturbing at the very least could easily have been overlooked on the chocolate box, with the investigators initially believing it was smeared chocolate until everything was tested. That may also be why it was never discussed or relayed until now.

The oversized PJs are another "bugaboo". The initital reaction is that of course, they were Burke's. There were reports that Burke was a "smearer" but it was chalked up to "rumor" until now but now we know at the very least that this was a really "special" family with very disturbing secrets IMO

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

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#3
Aug 17, 2012
 

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I agree in that I think her head was injured elsewhere, most likely the kitchen. But there was blood on her pillowcase. Could be coincidence with the dry winter and nose bleeds, who knows?
Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Anything is possible of course Jimmy but as a BDI also, I do not think that whatever happened, happened upstairs, but that is neither here nor there for purposes of the fecal smearing, etc.
The issue of the fecal matter in places that are disturbing at the very least could easily have been overlooked on the chocolate box, with the investigators initially believing it was smeared chocolate until everything was tested. That may also be why it was never discussed or relayed until now.
The oversized PJs are another "bugaboo". The initital reaction is that of course, they were Burke's. There were reports that Burke was a "smearer" but it was chalked up to "rumor" until now but now we know at the very least that this was a really "special" family with very disturbing secrets IMO

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

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#4
Aug 17, 2012
 

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Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
Anything is possible of course Jimmy but as a BDI also, I do not think that whatever happened, happened upstairs, but that is neither here nor there for purposes of the fecal smearing, etc.
The issue of the fecal matter in places that are disturbing at the very least could easily have been overlooked on the chocolate box, with the investigators initially believing it was smeared chocolate until everything was tested. That may also be why it was never discussed or relayed until now.
The oversized PJs are another "bugaboo". The initital reaction is that of course, they were Burke's. There were reports that Burke was a "smearer" but it was chalked up to "rumor" until now but now we know at the very least that this was a really "special" family with very disturbing secrets IMO
wouldn't diapers be bulky to the point of needing larger bottoms over them? maybe she got Burke's hand me down pj's to wear over her pull ups?

“YES”

Since: Mar 07

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#5
Aug 17, 2012
 

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realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
wouldn't diapers be bulky to the point of needing larger bottoms over them? maybe she got Burke's hand me down pj's to wear over her pull ups?
That is very possible also RT. Good point. I just can't imagine Patsy putting JBR in anyone's hand me downs, but who knows. Maybe she figured that nobody would see it in the middle of the night and didn't have to have her on display so you could very well be right

Since: May 11

United States

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#6
Aug 17, 2012
 

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Capricorn wrote:
<quoted text>
That is very possible also RT. Good point. I just can't imagine Patsy putting JBR in anyone's hand me downs, but who knows. Maybe she figured that nobody would see it in the middle of the night and didn't have to have her on display so you could very well be right
I doubt very much that JB was dressed and cleaned appropriately on a regular basis, so secondhand pj's seem like nothing compared to feces smeared underpants and sporatic baths. Why buy something that's already there and nobody will see but the dysfunctional family who's making your child neurotic in the first place?

Since: Jul 10

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#7
Aug 17, 2012
 

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I don't see any real sense in a "I'm telling" scenario. No need to tell, the action speaks and smells for itself. The child that poops and smears is making a statement and wants it heard. It's as much a cry for help as any suicide gesture.

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

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#8
Aug 17, 2012
 
Yea except of the thousands of kids that do that a year 1 killed her sister. There is no correlation. He's not an animal in a biological sense and is not marking his territory. Unless he was being abused it doesn't make sense. It would make sense if it was JB but Burke was older and had control. Him resorting to such tactics would have only made sense if he was the younger child. I think there is quite a bit we still don't know and we still don't know if indeed it was Burke who did it.
moonjack wrote:
I don't see any real sense in a "I'm telling" scenario. No need to tell, the action speaks and smells for itself. The child that poops and smears is making a statement and wants it heard. It's as much a cry for help as any suicide gesture.
candy

East Lansing, MI

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#9
Aug 17, 2012
 

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I'll be very interested in what you think of Kolar's book Jimmy, as you are a cop like he is.

I'm half way through the book, and not at the point where he states his "Theory of the prosecution" yet. BUT, a couple of things I hope people with other experiences comment on:

1) It's awfully late when all this is happening, and these are children, ages 6 and 9 who have been up all day. My experience with kids who have boy and a girl sibling rivalry (my brother and sister) is they get cranky or just crash when up that late, they don't have the energy to get in a violent argument that late at night.

2) After she was hit in the head and unconscious and feared dead, wouldn't moving her ANYWHERE cause that massive skull fracture they don't know she has, cause that fracture to be jarred, and all that massive bleeding going on in her cranium, to be spilled all over the place? If you haven't read Kolar's book, after she was hit, JonBenet was incredibly alive, but unconscious for another ninety minutes, in which her cranium was filling up with blood.

3) When did she change from the red sweater that was found in the bathroom, that Patsy initially told cops she was put to bed in, to the white sweater she was found dead in, that Patsy later changed her story to say JonBenet had been put to bed in that white sweater? If she was changed, and they pulled the red turtleneck off over her head,(her arms were found over her head) wouldn't that also disturb that massive skull fracture?
Retired Nurse

Heber Springs, AR

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#10
Aug 17, 2012
 

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JimmyWells wrote:
Yea except of the thousands of kids that do that a year 1 killed her sister. There is no correlation. He's not an animal in a biological sense and is not marking his territory. Unless he was being abused it doesn't make sense. It would make sense if it was JB but Burke was older and had control. Him resorting to such tactics would have only made sense if he was the younger child. I think there is quite a bit we still don't know and we still don't know if indeed it was Burke who did it. <quoted text>
I agree there is no correlation and there is quite a bit we still don't know..... I doubt we will ever know. But it does seem quite obvious there were some strange behaviors going on with the two children. Bedwetting by the age of 6 is quite unusual and as someone has already commented, the smearing of feces by a 9 year old is either a cry for help or some type of behavioral problem.

Apparently the grandparents were concerned or troubled about something regarding the behavior of Burke and/or JonBenet.

It was reported that the Paughs (Patsy's parents) had purchased several books on childhood behavior for the Ramsey family. The titles of 3 of those books are:

"Why Johnny Can't Tell Right From Wrong", by Kilpatrick
"Children At Risk", by Dobson/Bruer
"The Hurried Child - Growing Up Too Fast", by David Elkind

I read that in one of the books written about the case.(Of course, I realize that doesn't make it true, but it would make sense).

In the beginning, after hearing about the case and observing the behavior of John and Patsy Ramsey, I have suspected all along that they were covering for their son. It seemed to be the only thing that made sense to me.
I tried to tell myself it was Patsy who had become angry with JonBenet and lost control. But as time went along and we all learned more and more about the case, it seemed obvious to me that they were protecting their young son.
It certainly can never be proven after all these years, and most likely we will never know for sure who actually killed her.
Retired Nurse

Heber Springs, AR

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#11
Aug 17, 2012
 

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Hello Candy,

I just left you a long comment but my computer goofed up and I can't seem to retrieve it.(I will try to re-type it tomorrow when I have more energy).

I am also reading the book by Kolar! In fact, I have just finished it but I find myself going back and re-reading things. There was a lot to take in and to process! I found the book to be very interesting and informative and find it difficult to understand why some are questioning Kolar's credibility. He seemed to lay everything out there and provided as much proof as possible to back up his claims and theories.

I look forward to reading your comments about the many things you found in the book.
learnin

Garnett, KS

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#12
Aug 17, 2012
 

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A couple of things.

1. If JBR was wearing larger PJ's so she could wear pullups, why feces in the PJ's?

2. BR was a great deal taller than JBR. His P.J.'s would have swallowed JBR.

3. If BR smeared feces on chocolates found in JBR's room, then, he must've done it because he was jealous of her. At the least, he had some resentment. It makes you wonder how much difference there is between smearing feces on someones chocolates and hitting them over the head with a golf club?

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

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#13
Aug 18, 2012
 

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I've witnessed only one skull fracture in which a drunk guy fell and hit his head on a curb. The guy was unconsious and there was no apparent abrasion on his skin but there was blood trickling out of his ears. The guy did end up dying and his fracture was similar in that it appeared that there was a large crack but without bone displacement. I'm not a doctor so I'm not really sure if blood would spew from her nose or ears but one would think so due to it happening regularly with serious skull fractures. I'm wondering if she ate the pineapple right when she got home and went to sleep never to wake up. I'm curious to know what her regular sleeping positions were, left side, right side, etc. because if she slept on her left she could have been struck with the golf club when she was sleeping. There was no blood in her ears but some could have came out her nose which would explain the bloodstain on her pillowcase. And a matress would "Give" opposed to a hard surface and the skull would absorb all the blunt force without creating a laceration on the skin. Had her head been on a floor when she was struck there would have been a contusion on the left side of her head as well from the floor. And if she was upright when she was struck there also would have been another contusion on the opposide side of her head unless she was attacked in a padded room. That kind of force would knock someone across a room and the head would be the first thing that hit the floor if the victim is in a seated or standing position. I saw no other head trauma in the autopsy report so it is my humble opinion that she was struck while lying on a soft surface. Had she been standing or sitting when she was struck she would have had a nasty bruise on the left side of her forehead in a floored room or an abrasion or "Carpet burn" in the same area if it occured in a carpeted room. Someone even Burke's size would be strong enough to generate that sort of force with something as long as a golf club using an "Overhead chop" with the target being idle and unaware.
candy wrote:
I'll be very interested in what you think of Kolar's book Jimmy, as you are a cop like he is.
I'm half way through the book, and not at the point where he states his "Theory of the prosecution" yet. BUT, a couple of things I hope people with other experiences comment on:
1) It's awfully late when all this is happening, and these are children, ages 6 and 9 who have been up all day. My experience with kids who have boy and a girl sibling rivalry (my brother and sister) is they get cranky or just crash when up that late, they don't have the energy to get in a violent argument that late at night.
2) After she was hit in the head and unconscious and feared dead, wouldn't moving her ANYWHERE cause that massive skull fracture they don't know she has, cause that fracture to be jarred, and all that massive bleeding going on in her cranium, to be spilled all over the place? If you haven't read Kolar's book, after she was hit, JonBenet was incredibly alive, but unconscious for another ninety minutes, in which her cranium was filling up with blood.
3) When did she change from the red sweater that was found in the bathroom, that Patsy initially told cops she was put to bed in, to the white sweater she was found dead in, that Patsy later changed her story to say JonBenet had been put to bed in that white sweater? If she was changed, and they pulled the red turtleneck off over her head,(her arms were found over her head) wouldn't that also disturb that massive skull fracture?
learnin

Garnett, KS

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#14
Aug 18, 2012
 

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JimmyWells wrote:
I've witnessed only one skull fracture in which a drunk guy fell and hit his head on a curb. The guy was unconsious and there was no apparent abrasion on his skin but there was blood trickling out of his ears. The guy did end up dying and his fracture was similar in that it appeared that there was a large crack but without bone displacement. I'm not a doctor so I'm not really sure if blood would spew from her nose or ears but one would think so due to it happening regularly with serious skull fractures. I'm wondering if she ate the pineapple right when she got home and went to sleep never to wake up. I'm curious to know what her regular sleeping positions were, left side, right side, etc. because if she slept on her left she could have been struck with the golf club when she was sleeping. There was no blood in her ears but some could have came out her nose which would explain the bloodstain on her pillowcase. And a matress would "Give" opposed to a hard surface and the skull would absorb all the blunt force without creating a laceration on the skin. Had her head been on a floor when she was struck there would have been a contusion on the left side of her head as well from the floor. And if she was upright when she was struck there also would have been another contusion on the opposide side of her head unless she was attacked in a padded room. That kind of force would knock someone across a room and the head would be the first thing that hit the floor if the victim is in a seated or standing position. I saw no other head trauma in the autopsy report so it is my humble opinion that she was struck while lying on a soft surface. Had she been standing or sitting when she was struck she would have had a nasty bruise on the left side of her forehead in a floored room or an abrasion or "Carpet burn" in the same area if it occured in a carpeted room. Someone even Burke's size would be strong enough to generate that sort of force with something as long as a golf club using an "Overhead chop" with the target being idle and unaware. <quoted text>
Jimmy, in order for bleeding to occur in the ear with skull fracture, the fracture has to be in the base of the skull where the ear canal is compromised. As long as the ear canal is intact, blood has no way of entering from the brain, etc. Since JBR's fracture was at the top and to the right, she would not have bled from the ear.
candy

East Lansing, MI

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#15
Aug 18, 2012
 
JimmyWells wrote:
I've witnessed only one skull fracture in which a drunk guy fell and hit his head on a curb. The guy was unconsious and there was no apparent abrasion on his skin but there was blood trickling out of his ears. The guy did end up dying and his fracture was similar in that it appeared that there was a large crack but without bone displacement. I'm not a doctor so I'm not really sure if blood would spew from her nose or ears but one would think so due to it happening regularly with serious skull fractures. I'm wondering if she ate the pineapple right when she got home and went to sleep never to wake up. I'm curious to know what her regular sleeping positions were, left side, right side, etc. because if she slept on her left she could have been struck with the golf club when she was sleeping. There was no blood in her ears but some could have came out her nose which would explain the bloodstain on her pillowcase. And a matress would "Give" opposed to a hard surface and the skull would absorb all the blunt force without creating a laceration on the skin. Had her head been on a floor when she was struck there would have been a contusion on the left side of her head as well from the floor. And if she was upright when she was struck there also would have been another contusion on the opposide side of her head unless she was attacked in a padded room. That kind of force would knock someone across a room and the head would be the first thing that hit the floor if the victim is in a seated or standing position. I saw no other head trauma in the autopsy report so it is my humble opinion that she was struck while lying on a soft surface. Had she been standing or sitting when she was struck she would have had a nasty bruise on the left side of her forehead in a floored room or an abrasion or "Carpet burn" in the same area if it occured in a carpeted room. Someone even Burke's size would be strong enough to generate that sort of force with something as long as a golf club using an "Overhead chop" with the target being idle and unaware. <quoted text>
Thanks so much for that info Jimmy. I appreciate it.
candy

East Lansing, MI

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#16
Aug 18, 2012
 

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I don't know if you ever read that article in the tabloids, The Globe, by Lindsey Phillips, JonBenet's friend and Judith Phillips daughter. She told of a time when she went over to play with JonBenet and all JonBenet wanted to do was "let's go bother Burke". She liked that she could gang up with Lindsey to do it, and they proceeded to to a bunch of things to see how mad Burke would get. And he did get mad. So there were times when JonBenet would go out of her way to upset Burke, and maybe that night was one of them.
vickilo

Lubbock, TX

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#17
Aug 18, 2012
 

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One sitter told that a couple of years before jonbenet had no clothes at all and wore burke's hand me downs. I assumed she meant clothes other than showy little dresses.

“Hey”

Since: Jan 10

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#18
Aug 18, 2012
 
I disagree. In the case I spoke of the fracture was in the parietal/occipital area and he bled from the ears. There was no basil skull fracture in this case.
learnin wrote:
<quoted text>
Jimmy, in order for bleeding to occur in the ear with skull fracture, the fracture has to be in the base of the skull where the ear canal is compromised. As long as the ear canal is intact, blood has no way of entering from the brain, etc. Since JBR's fracture was at the top and to the right, she would not have bled from the ear.

“Sandy Stranger killed JonBenet”

Since: Jan 08

Not Boulder, Co.

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#19
Aug 18, 2012
 

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candy wrote:
, and maybe that night was one of them.
You forgot "without leaving any evidence and then being cleared by investigaors".
learnin

Garnett, KS

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#20
Aug 18, 2012
 

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JimmyWells wrote:
I disagree. In the case I spoke of the fracture was in the parietal/occipital area and he bled from the ears. There was no basil skull fracture in this case. <quoted text>
This is from wiki:

"Trauma to the occiput can cause a basilar skull fracture."

The occiput, Jimmy, is located on the back of the skull. In order for blood to enter the ear canal, from skull fracture, there has to be compromise of the ear canal...a fracture which cracks the ear canal.

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