Stan Garnett on the Ramsey case TODAY...

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#151 Nov 15, 2012
koldkase wrote:
<quoted text>
If you have time to read my post above #138, you can see that Kolar did reveal the cords had been tested and the results. It's clear why Lacy neglected to mention that in her media releases about that "touch" DNA and her little exoneration letter, of course.
Turns out we have a plethora of possibilities as to where the contamination originated...all six separate, partial, unidentified profiles.
Yes, unidentified male on garotte and wrist cords...but, there should be JR's DNA on the wrist cords because he messed with them that morning..no DNA from him? My point is there may be foreign DNA all over her clothing and cords, etc., but there should be her parents DNA as well. When JR carried her "like a plank of wood", wouldn't his DNA be on the waistband as well?
I know foreign DNA was found on the garotte, was Ramsey DNA on it, too? I don't think anyone tested the ankle cuffs of thos longjohn's, and it seems to me that part would have this intruder's DNA on it from redressing her. You need to start with those cuffs to get the longjohn's on and I don't think he'd put his gloves on for that and take them off to handle her waistband.
Was foreign DNA found on the Bloomies waistband? Should be all over them if they were put on her after death.

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#152 Nov 15, 2012
DrSeussMd wrote:
And just to show you how fickle that tricky DNA can be, JR picked her up off the basement floor by the waist and carried her stiff body out in front of him all the way up the stairs and into the front hall where he laid her on the floor.
Are we not supposed to believe his DNA was there as well?(That is why a full DNA report is necessary)
If we are talking transfer (and I hate to ask this) but where had HIS hands been all morning long?
Reading his mail - Lord only knows how many people touched his mail
Looking under JBR's bed
Closing a window in the basement
Opening the walk in fridge looking for JBR
Reading the RN with his hands on the back hall floor
Answering the phone several times AFTER the traps had been placed
Fixed a drink and drank it so he touched the liquor bottle
and "many" more places as well.
<quoted text>
Hi Doc:D we have esp it seems since we typed the same thing about JR and the waistband. I agree with your whole post, God only knows how many people touched everything you mentioned, and yet, no reports of Ramsey DNA! It was their house and their child, but it seems everyone and their uncle's DNA is there except the Ramseys. There shouldn't be any Ramsey DNA on the garotte since they never saw that cord before and JR was more concerned with her 'suffocated' wrists to attempt untieing her strangled throat.

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#153 Nov 15, 2012
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, unidentified male on garotte and wrist cords...but, there should be JR's DNA on the wrist cords because he messed with them that morning..no DNA from him? My point is there may be foreign DNA all over her clothing and cords, etc., but there should be her parents DNA as well. When JR carried her "like a plank of wood", wouldn't his DNA be on the waistband as well?
I know foreign DNA was found on the garotte, was Ramsey DNA on it, too? I don't think anyone tested the ankle cuffs of thos longjohn's, and it seems to me that part would have this intruder's DNA on it from redressing her. You need to start with those cuffs to get the longjohn's on and I don't think he'd put his gloves on for that and take them off to handle her waistband.
Was foreign DNA found on the Bloomies waistband? Should be all over them if they were put on her after death.
Clearly you and DrSeuss are on the same page. lol

About the waistband of the Bloomies, from post #138, quoting Kolar's book:

"4. There had been trace DNA samples located in the crotch and waistband of her underwear that belonged to an unidentified male. This became known as Distal Stain 007-2."

But I don't think it was "all over them" as the profiles were all weak and partial, if I understand what Kolar said.

In fact, I think this is the best argument that these profiles are most likely from various sources of transfer: they're all very weak, including that on the clothing.

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#154 Nov 15, 2012
koldkase wrote:
<quoted text>
Clearly you and DrSeuss are on the same page. lol
About the waistband of the Bloomies, from post #138, quoting Kolar's book:
"4. There had been trace DNA samples located in the crotch and waistband of her underwear that belonged to an unidentified male. This became known as Distal Stain 007-2."
But I don't think it was "all over them" as the profiles were all weak and partial, if I understand what Kolar said.
In fact, I think this is the best argument that these profiles are most likely from various sources of transfer: they're all very weak, including that on the clothing.
Thanks KK:D so JR's DNA on her waistband should be strong and with all markers, and same goes for wrist cords. I want to know where Ramsey DNA was found on the body and cords, just as the many strangers DNA all over her. If they found the DNA in the underpants on something else in the house, I'd buy in. As it stands and for all we know, some little guy in Taiwan held those panties up after sewing on the label and said to himself, "ahhh, good job, yeah?"

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#155 Nov 15, 2012
Hi RT,

I totally agree with your post and it is a real bugaboo on the mysterious disappearance of all Ramsey DNA.
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Doc:D we have esp it seems since we typed the same thing about JR and the waistband. I agree with your whole post, God only knows how many people touched everything you mentioned, and yet, no reports of Ramsey DNA! It was their house and their child, but it seems everyone and their uncle's DNA is there except the Ramseys. There shouldn't be any Ramsey DNA on the garotte since they never saw that cord before and JR was more concerned with her 'suffocated' wrists to attempt untieing her strangled throat.

Since: May 11

Seattle, WA

#156 Nov 15, 2012
DrSeussMd wrote:
Hi RT,
I totally agree with your post and it is a real bugaboo on the mysterious disappearance of all Ramsey DNA.
<quoted text>
like vampires with no reflection, the Ramseys have invisible DNA, I guess. Cool as cucumbers handling a note that announces a possible beheading of their missing child..maybe that's why the IDI worship at their feet. Their emaculate deception was miraculous! They don't sweat or shed like mere mortals, they're cordial even under the most harrowing of circumstances. Just don't steal their KMart jewelry..that'll pull out JR's body fluids like nothing else!
Steve Eller

United States

#157 Nov 15, 2012
realTopaz wrote:
<quoted text>
like vampires with no reflection, the Ramseys have invisible DNA, I guess. Cool as cucumbers handling a note that announces a possible beheading of their missing child..maybe that's why the IDI worship at their feet. Their emaculate deception was miraculous! They don't sweat or shed like mere mortals, they're cordial even under the most harrowing of circumstances. Just don't steal their KMart jewelry..that'll pull out JR's body fluids like nothing else!
Yes! It's amazing how they practically ran down to the Police Station for that K-Mart jewelry yet would only meet with the Boulder Police at a negotiated 'neutral' location after four months of negotiation when it came to assisting in finding the murderer of their daughter.

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

#158 Nov 15, 2012
Steve Eller wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes! It's amazing how they practically ran down to the Police Station for that K-Mart jewelry yet would only meet with the Boulder Police at a negotiated 'neutral' location after four months of negotiation when it came to assisting in finding the murderer of their daughter.
It is all smoke and mirrors and it always has been!
Anti-K

Grande Prairie, Canada

#159 Nov 15, 2012
Too many posts, since my last visit, that I’d like to reply to, so I’m just going to make a few quick – I hope!– comments on a cpl things that stood out and address them to no one in particular. I do have a few things to say regarding this matter of DNA and race, but I’ll do that in a separate post.

.

It does seem that there is a lot of confusion over this matter of DNA transfer. From the many comments, questions, etc. made and raised and the DNA, it should be obvious that DNA transfer does not occur as most people expect.

Anyways…

A DNA marker can be strong or weak and there’s a range in between. Saying that the markers are weak doesn’t tell us anything about the number of markers identified.

DNA contamination means that foreign DNA was introduced to the crime scene sample at some point after discovery of the crime scene. This could happen during the securing and/or handling of the scene (body, etc.) or during the collection and/or processing of the scene/evidence.
Lacey didn’t mention the DNA found on the garrote or the wrist ligature or the fingernails or the Barbie nightgown….

I’m not convinced that Kolar read any of the DNA reports. At least, I don’t remember him saying that he did. If anyone knows different, can they please post the page number? He does talk about meeting with so-and-so and talking with someone else and things that were said by some other guy, but I can’t recall him saying anything about reading any actual analysis or report.

Great discussion and comments/questions on the touch DNA and absence of Ramsey DNA and I’m sure I’ll have opportunity to get into these things later… I’ll make my “race and DNA” comments in my following post, when time permits.


AK
Anti-K

Grande Prairie, Canada

#160 Nov 15, 2012
Race is a purely social construct with no biological basis.

However, criminologists have claimed to be able to identify race since the late ‘90’s. For example, BPD did use a Cellmark (iirc) lab to identify the DNA in the Chase murder case as being Hispanic. I don’t know how they claimed to do this, but the result would have been probabilistic – that is, in so many cases out of so many, this DNA would have come from a Hispanic.

Even though race has no biological basis, there are DNA databases that are categorized by race. In the early days, databases were built using various sources; blood donors for example. You donate blood and you fill out a form and maybe you put a checkmark beside Hispanic. Back then, forms had maybe only three categories to choose from and so, people would choose whatever category came closest to whatever race they believed themselves to be. In some cases, a third party might assign a race to a particular sample. Now, as I remember it, there are over forty racial categories in use!

Anyways, it was discovered that markers appeared at different rates in the different racial categories. This was important in the old days, before STRs and CODIS and 13 loci and all that jazz. Thirteen STR loci allows for the realization of odds in the billions, the hundreds of billions, and more! It is widely accepted that odds of this magnitude negates any value found in distinguishing match probability by race – when the odds pass a certain point the difference between racial frequencies becomes insignificant. However, as far as I know these racial databases are still maintained.

None of this gives us a real way to identify race from DNA (because race has NO biological basis!!), but I suppose you could use these databases to make some sort of probabilistic prediction. A lot of the work done towards identifying race (it doesn’t exist!) through DNA is accomplished through matching to population groups or ancestry. This is probably what happened in the Chase case, but I really just don’t remember any details.


AK
Anti-K

Grande Prairie, Canada

#161 Nov 15, 2012
So, was any of the DNA in the Ramsey case identified as Caucasian? I have no idea, but I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some of it was, maybe not all of the supposed six unidentified samples, but maybe some or one of them. If Smit did see a report that stated such a thing, then we would have to be talking about the fingernail DNA and/or the male component found in the first blood spot analyzed and not the panties/leggings or any of the ligature samples, all of which emerged after Smit’s departure.

We do know that some interest and effort was expended towards trying to source or explain the DNA, for example, by purchasing and testing new panties, so I would expect that BPD would have, at least, tried to discover race. Certainly they realized that this could go towards disproving theories of factory sneezes and such! So, why not try?


AK
WV Sleuth

Winchester, VA

#163 Nov 16, 2012
DrSeussMd wrote:
And just to show you how fickle that tricky DNA can be, JR picked her up off the basement floor by the waist and carried her stiff body out in front of him all the way up the stairs and into the front hall where he laid her on the floor.
Are we not supposed to believe his DNA was there as well?(That is why a full DNA report is necessary)
If we are talking transfer (and I hate to ask this) but where had HIS hands been all morning long?
Reading his mail - Lord only knows how many people touched his mail
Looking under JBR's bed
Closing a window in the basement
Opening the walk in fridge looking for JBR
Reading the RN with his hands on the back hall floor
Answering the phone several times AFTER the traps had been placed
Fixed a drink and drank it so he touched the liquor bottle
and "many" more places as well.
<quoted text>
- Very good points!
WV Sleuth

Winchester, VA

#164 Nov 16, 2012
koldkase wrote:
<quoted text>
"4. There had been trace DNA samples located in the crotch and waistband of her underwear that belonged to an unidentified male. This became known as Distal Stain 007-2."
-- Since this is 'trace' DNA, I assume that's PARTIAL, and from that, can we draw the conclusion that since it was partial, it doesn't necessarily rule out John or Burke being the source?
WV Sleuth

Winchester, VA

#165 Nov 16, 2012
Okay, Smarmy whoever you are, IF the trace DNA does rule out John and Burke, please just say so. It's so much better than just putting a nasty on my post? Does it? Does it not? If the trace DNA excludes John and Burke, just say so. I'm asking, that's WHY I asked.

Since: Jan 12

Location hidden

#166 Nov 16, 2012
A bit of research with regard to "trace DNA"...

"What is currently commonly referred to as ‘trace DNA’ or ‘touch DNA’ has PREVIOUSLY been referred to as LOW COPY [77,88], or LOW TEMPLATE [82,89].

In our view, THE APPLICATION OF A SINGLE TERM, SUCH AS TRACE DNA or LTDNA, can be a MISLEADING SIMPLIFICATION OF A SERIES OF COMPLEX PROCESSES.

TRACE or TOUCH DNA may be the appropriate term when referring to the COLLECTION of MINUTE SAMPLES AT THE CRIME SCENE...

...OR the PROCESS of COLLECTING and EXTRACTING the TINY AMOUNTS OF MATERIAL WITHIN THE SAMPLE IN THE FORENSIC LABORATORY.

Low template is used as a descriptor for the AMPLIFICATION PHASE, where THE USE OF LOW AMOUNTS OF MATERIAL is likely to generate stochastic effects.

While the term LCN also relates to low template, IT TENDS TO BE USED TO DESCRIBE THE PROCESS of increased cycle number RATHER THAN THE AMOUNT PRESENT.

The profile could equally be referred to as ‘LOW LEVEL’ in the INTERPRETATION PHASE, reflecting that the peak heights are below a validated threshold level.

For consistency, within this review we will use the term ‘TRACE DNA’ to refer to ANY SAMPLE which may fall below the recommended thresholds AT ANY STAGE OF THE PROCESS -

DETECTION,

COLLECTION,

EXTRACTION,

AMPLIFICATION and

INTERPRETATION."
.........

"It should be recognized that AN APPARENT TRACE DNA SAMPLE at a particular processing phase DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT IT, or the PROFILES GENERATED FROM IT, will CONTINUE to BE CONSIDERED a TRACE DNA sample IN SUBSEQUENT PHASES. It should also be understood that, as methods change, any defined threshold amount for trace DNA will also probably change. WE ENCOURAGE any biologists working with TRACE DNA amounts to CONSIDER ALL ASPECTS of the process RATHER THAN SIMPLY FOCUSING ON THE INTERPRETATION PHASE."
.........

"MOST TRACE SAMPLES are collected USING SWABS. Swabbing an area requires a moistened swab to traverse the whole target area multiple times with some pressure and rotation of the swab so that the full surface area of the swab can contribute to the collection. HOWEVER, a moist cotton swab DOES NOT pick up ALL of the AVAILABLE BIOLOGICAL MATERIAL from the surface and, in many instances, it may pick up LESS THAN HALF of the AVAILABLE SAMPLE [106,107]."
.........

"Once the DNA-containing material has been collected, most methodologies require the DNA to be extracted from the collection device. In the case of a cotton swab, IT HAS BEEN SHOWN that some COMMONLY used DNA EXTRACTION methodologies are NOT particularly EFFICIENT in retrieving ALL the DNA COLLECTED from the swab[105]."
(Van Oorschot et. al., 2010)

*SOURCE*
Forensic Trace DNA: A Review

Roland AH van Oorschot, Kaye N Ballantyne, R John Mitchell

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/2041...

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#172 Nov 16, 2012
Go look it up Biz, it was either John or Patsy that said that after the 'alleged' Atlanta breakin.
Biz wrote:
<quoted text>
You are so catty as to refer to Patsy's jewelry as "K-mart jewelry".

“May you all come home”

Since: Mar 07

safely Bless you all

#173 Nov 16, 2012
Speaking of "catty", it was the RAMSEYS who referred to the jewelry "robbery" as the KMART jewelry, inferring that it was just her "other" jewelry

So if anyone is "catty" it was the pompous Ramseys who referred to the jewelry in that manner, making it sound like they are usually "better than KMART"

It came in handy to play it down as KMART jewelry so it wouldn't look as shady when they didn't catch the Atlanta perp LOL who locked John in the bathroom with the door that closes IN LOL

“WAX ON”

Since: Jul 10

WAX OFF

#174 Nov 16, 2012
The swab is a moot point, because they also took blood and hair.

On Monday, Colorado Gov. Bill Owens denounced Lacy, saying, "I find it incredible that Boulder authorities wasted thousands of taxpayer dollars to bring Karr to Colorado given such a lack of evidence."

He continued, "Mary Lacy should be held accountable for the most extravagant and expensive DNA test in Colorado history."
------

Temin continued, "We are deeply distressed that they took this man and dragged him here from Bangkok, Thailand, with no forensic evidence confirming the allegations against him and no independent factors leading to a presumption that he did anything wrong."

Earlier Monday, Denver TV station KUSA and CNN confirmed that Karr's DNA did not match samples taken from the December 1996 crime scene. KUSA reported that samples of Karr's saliva and hair were taken after he arrived in Boulder Friday and tested over the weekend in Denver.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,14242...
maryB wrote:
<quoted text>
171

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#178 Nov 16, 2012
Thanks for the LINK, DrSeuss, you irresistible devil, you....

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,14242...

"In a statement released Monday, Boulder D.A. Lacy said,'My office has spent the past week conducting follow-up interviews and forensic testing to establish whether John Mark Karr was present in Boulder on December 25-26, 1996.

"'The DNA associated with the victim in this case does not match John Mark Karr. The family of Mr. Karr cooperated by providing circumstantial evidence that Mr. Karr spent Christmas with his family in Atlanta, Georgia.'"

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,14242...

Since: Apr 10

Location hidden

#180 Nov 16, 2012
Here's a suggestion: if you don't trust the source someone provided, WITH QUOTES ATTRIBUTED, then perhaps you can google those quotes and sources to find the original press releases, press conferences, articles, TV news, and media where they were published repeatedly.

That's what most of us do.

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