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#3 Feb 14, 2007
I need an aspirin.

Since: Dec 06

Saint Louis, MO

#11 Feb 15, 2007
Dots wrote:
I need an aspirin.
So do I, Dots. A good stiff drink would be nice, too.


#14 Feb 19, 2007
No, DB....which one do you mean? FFJ kicked me off....and starting over, well not much goes on there. I know Jameson's forum has been extremely slow,...since she didn't want theories without facts posted there......what are we all doing anyways? Everyone has a theory. What are the facts? Does anyone truly know? Books can be written and people can sway one way or the other. But does anyone truly know the fate of this child? Without prejudice??? If it was the parents...I'm in agreement. But I want to know whay Pam, Fleet, Priscilla, Daphne, The Fernies, the Stines....NO ONE has spoken on this child's behalf. SUE ME!!!!! She was innocent.


#15 Feb 19, 2007
What about the grandparents? The older brother and sister? What about cousins, aunts, uncles....??? Why do people not speak??? If it were an intruder, more would have spoken. More would have spoken. If it was an accidental killing, then someone speak.....It was an accident. You will not now be prosecuted. And if you are, then so be it. Someone zapped the life from this young creature, for what??? We will never know.
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#17 Feb 20, 2007
Terri wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, Helen is a liar, among other things.
Why do you say Helen Dagner is a liar?

From what little I know about this Michigan OCCK case Helen Dagner has presented EVIDENCE against John, and not just opinions and wild speculations.

I agree that Helen Dagner may not be all knowing about this OCCK case.

It looks to me as though there may have been some kind of connection between Norberg and Helen Dagner's suspect John. I think the fact that Helen Dagner said those two worked in the same place is interesting information. I think Helen Dagner's conclusion that they didn't socialize at all, as though there was no connection, might not be quite correct.

Detroit Breakdown I think has said that there was some kind of connection between Gary and Norberg but Detroit Breakdown seems convinced that John had nothing to do with any murders. It could well be that the OCCK murders, and Jane Allen's murder, weren't done by the same murderer.

As benjamin has said, this Gary might be a dangerous criminal. Detroit Breakdown would be best advised to be candid about providing INFORMATION, and not just what 'Gary said' stuff.

I think Detroit Breakdown would be wasting his time if he just sends off a letter with his opinions about Helen Dagner, and the fact that he is convinced Gary's DNA is at the Ramsey crime scene. Probing murder is an exact science. You can't take chances with it.

Pasadena, MD

#18 Feb 20, 2007
I agree. He needs to remove his negative focus on Ms. Dagner and positively focus on Gary. DB seems to think that his "Gary Said" proof is enough, while Dagner's "John Said" proof is worthless. Because DB is not LE, I suppose he can maintain this double standard, but it detracts from the credibility of what he posits.

Again, I really can't comment on DB's Gary as true, false, partially true or not. I can tell you he has said a few key points that - with my experience on the OCCK intrigue me. However, Dagner's story I do know and I have never closed John off as a suspect.
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#20 Feb 20, 2007
Helen Dagner has stated as a fact that Norberg and John worked at the same place together. Helen Dagner has said that they didn't socialize with each other, which may or may not be true.

Detroit Breakdown shouldn't come on the internet and say that he's certain he knows that Norberg and John didn't know each other when it's plainly transparent that he's fabricating that opinion out of whole cloth.

As I have said before I don't disregard leads and suspects. It could be that Norberg was mixed up with the OCCK murders. Gary 'might' have been involved in the Jane Allen murder. I agree with Helen Dagner that Norberg's cross is very weak evidence, as is what Detroit Breakdown said 'Gary said' about it.

This is what Helen Dagner has posted about Norberg's cross previously:


Police seem to be on the same path in 2005...that they were March,1989...when they decided...come hell or high water...Norberg,a suspect at one time...had to be was only one Det. at Berkley, who thought this way..that is why he couldn't get funding from his Dept....But he knew a lot of people...and they footed the bill, for the private Exhuming...and it is a good thing they Det. Anger...was about to take money out of his own savings.

What drove a this kind of passion or obsession?..Well,that is the part that is not Norberg had already been cleared 4 times...And as Jerry Tobias told me...there would never have been a child that would go with he was a greasy guy...that smelled really bad...he was intoxicated...all of the time...and there is no way he could have carried these murders off in the manner that they were...also Tobias found be kind of how was it...that Det.Anger was able to hold on to that passion...when he knew...that Police every where...did not agree with him...well it is also beyond my comprehension...

I have gone over and over...everything I knew about Norberg...and have been told by LE...And there is just NO way...a there right mind...could make a connection between Norberg and The Oakland County child Killings---YOU HAVE TO FIT THE PERSON TO THE CRIME-YOU CAN"T CHANGE THE CRIME TO FIT THE PERSON...AS THE CRIME IS KNOWEN...THE PERSON -IS NOT!

Tobias,told me Norberg was not in the Detroit area when one of the killings occurred,and that aspects of the case known exclusively to certain task force members, Tobias being one of them---absolutely eliminated Norberg as a suspect!..

.And as for the necklace,with the name Kristine on....well Tobias,said Norberg,had a sister with that name.Tobias,was not the only one that discounted the Necklace story-State Police LT.Joe Krease....said back then ...when they were told and what they saw of the certainly is -nor was- it viable as far as evidence--we couldn't tell where he got it,or who it even belongs to...he said Kristine's mother did not recognize the fact she stated...I have never seen this before."
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#23 Feb 20, 2007
More about John's 'confession' from a witness who was there, on an OCCK forum:

"It sounded like made up stuff only because I knew nothing about the Oakland Child killings at the time. It was the womanís expressions that made me continue to think that something about this was very real. She seemed hurt and shocked almost like she knew the victims or something.

After the couple left, I thought about it some more. I asked my friend what we should do. Should we go to the police? Then I thought, if we did go to the police what exactly would we tell them? After all, I still didnít know exactly what I just witnessed. It made no sense. I think the Ďbath thingí made me decide not to pursue it.

Some 14 years later I was reading some of Helenís posts on the web and nearly hit the floor reading about Alpena Big Boy. It completely freaked me out. Now knowing what the OCCK is all about, it all makes sense. Iím very bothered by the fact that I did not report this immediately that night.

Now some of you will say I read this stuff on the web then dreamed it up myself. No, I remember exactly where I sat at that restaurant that night. This is not a dream. I can very easily prove I was in town that night.

What are the odds of a different couple (not Helen & John) sitting in that same town, same restaurant, same year, discussing child murders with baths and drawing maps on Big Boy placemats? I donít even want to answer this one. This is just too stupid to even consider.

Are there multiple witnesses? Yes my friend and I. There were a few other people sitting further away that had to hear some of this, but also, I believe that after the couple left there were discussions among the Big Boy staff in the corner about it. Keep in mind that you couldnít help but over hear some of the discussions. After all, the couple sat close to the register host and also next to the cooks where there were plenty of ears. Itís my understanding now that the Big Boy staff knew Helen and John quite well from many visits at that time.

Now Iím not accusing anyone of anything but someone drew maps and discussed this stuff at Big Boy that night and that you can take to the bank as FACT! Draw your own conclusions. My only point is that Helenís story is not all fabrication, there is definitely some truth to it. That I know for sure. Perhaps it was a Ďbogusí confession but at least admit to it. Even if this is the case, it still shocks me that someone would choose to discuss this stuff at a public restaurant as a joke. A very horrific warped sense of humor at the very least I must add.

Stop the emotional bickering and get to the truth and get to the real facts. The truth will eventually prevail anyway. This will be my only post. I donít care to debate or further discuss this with anyone on this board. I expect to see some posts calling me a liar and I donít care. I have already discussed this with Oakland Police, State Police and a few connections I have with LE. Take it whatever way you want, but at least my conscience is now clear of holding anything back."
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#26 Feb 20, 2007
I agree with Detroit Breakdown that this Gary person seems like a person who should be a 'person of interest' in murder investigations. I would feel happier if somebody could confirm that Gary's DNA is in CODIS.

I think Benjamin has indicated on this Topix forum that he is interested in Gary as a suspect, but not in the OCCK murders. I would like to see an extensive background check on this Carl that DB mentions, and Paul B, and Saad, and dare I say Detroit Breakdown's deceased brother, as well as Gary.

Personally, I think Gary is a an interesting suspect in that Jane Allen murder.

I still think that in any careful and thorough and proper investigation of any murder that you don't just jump to conclusions and think that one man could be responsible for half the murders in America just because Gary said this or that.

There was too much of a 'hypothetical scenario' in the Ramsey case, and manufactured evidence in the Dr Jeffrey MacDonald wrongful conviction case.

It looks to me as though this John did the OCCK murders, but as in the Ramsey case there may be unknown other people involved as well.

There was some gossip on the OCCK forums that John went to live in Europe, and may now be living in Georgia. I would like to know if the British police, or Interpol, were ever informed about that.
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#32 Feb 20, 2007
I can see what Astounded is saying, but I'm sorry, I'm still not fully convinced about this DNA business.

I don't want to have to start researching the complexities of DNA technology again, but I have always understood that male DNA is different to female DNA. The police may have worked out that Gary's sister isn't a murderer, but they may still be none too sure about Gary himself. I would like to see an official statement that Gary, and even John's DNA, is definitely in the CODIS system.

There is a similar sort of controversy in the Ramsey case. There has never been any official statement that Fleet White's DNA was ever tested, although I accept it probably has been.

All I have ever seen about the matter is some screen capture by Jayelles that's supposed to prove blacked out names are Fleet White, some comment that Fleet would never have been cleared if his DNA hadn't been tested, and some gossip from Boulder TV presenter Jann Scott that Fleet has been DNA tested.

Even Jameson has been skeptical about this Fleet DNA matter in the past.

According to Steve Thomas in his deposition, the DNA of Fleet's Californian guests Gaston and Cox was Detective Jane Harmers's assignment, which I don't find very reassuring.

Since: Dec 06

Saint Louis, MO

#37 Feb 20, 2007
Emily Peterson wrote:
What is this place?
It ain't Funkytown!

Knoxville, TN

#38 Feb 20, 2007
The last time I checked we are still in America-I think.

Pasadena, MD

#47 Feb 21, 2007
Astounded wrote:
<quoted text>
Benjamin, could you shed some light on how LE goes about with investigations and DNA evidence? I have talked with my friend that works here in my city, which proves DB wrong.
DB, I have the postings and e-mails where Kdogg states Gary's sister was not tested until 2005. See, this is what everyone is telling you to be able to prove. I can prove that she was not tested until sometime in 2005.
DNA is as tricky as it gets. A powerful knowledge, a powerful and damning science and yet it moves at a snails pace. While every rule in the books can be followed with DNA, information leaks abound and the official information gets placed on all sorts of lists "accidently."

I am sure your LE contact has told you the truth as it is officially written, but I have no idea what the reality of the sister's information being there really is.

My vacation is over now and I need to go back to work. It has been interesting corresponding and reading.

Pasadena, MD

#48 Feb 21, 2007
Terri wrote:
Thanks guys. You're already copying and pasting my messages to Helen. I knew I could count on you.
I'll have more members soon.
What's wrong Helen, boo hoo.
Why don't you want them sending you my posts ?
You usually love them. Is there a K factor?
You know I'm just Terri, even if your friends don't. I will be calling you. You wanna call a truce with me too ? Boo Hoo.
I am surprised though. When I first came across your site a year or so ago, you had real discussions with real people who really knew things. Not these kids who don't even know the case. Oh, and what happened to your site being about the kids? It sounds no different than the Free Press you boo hoo'd and criticised.
Any of you can reach me direct through the yahoo group above. Love to talk to you, really.
Come on Helen, complain to someone, boo hoo to you know who.
Your turn kids.......
As I just stated, it is time for me to go back to work. And, it appears just in time as your attitude does little to solve anything. However, I need to correct something-

You did not get anyone kicked off the Detroit Free Press Site. The closing of that site occurred after numerous complaints regarding Detroit Breakdowns posts as well as yours, I believe.
Henrietta McPhee

Plymouth, UK

#51 Feb 21, 2007
I agree with Benjamin, and Helen Dagner, that it does seem extraordinary that this John person was never thoroughly, or properly, investigated for the Michigan OCCK murders.

I think there are some places in America where they never allow rookie detectives to be on homicide teams.

I know nothing about this Detective Gray who is supposed to be investigating the Michigan OCCK murders. If he's anything like the rookie narcotics detectives at Boulder, Colorado, or the Army CID in the Dr Jeffrey MacDonald case, then I don't have a high regard for his abilites.

Detective Lou Smit has said publicly that there was tunnel vision in the Ramsey case. There seems to have been tunnel vision in the OCCK murders as well. That results in leads and suspects being disregarded and the real culprits never properly being investigated. The real culprits get away with their murders and innocent people get imprisoned.

It looks to me as though there might have been some kind of pedo sex ring involved in those OCCK murders. I realize it must be very difficult to get anybody involved in that sort of thing to talk anything about it, or to name names. There is some gossip about photos possibly being taken by the murderers, as there was in the Ramsey case.

I suppose it's possible that there might be some kind of connections between John and Gary and even peope like Fleet White, Santa Bill McReynolds and John Karr. It's just that the police seem to be a bit short of any hard evidence about that at the moment.

This is an interesting recent posting from an OCCK forum with regard to this John character:

"too bad the taskforce would look in to Lamborgine based off Lawson's testimony, yet they will not look at John with a confession, the map, a witness who can authenticate the map, an x-girlfriend who felt the need to report him, two witnesses from the American Legion Hall, and then Casual Observer to boot.

In all the news articles I have read, which has been quite a few, nowhere have I read the model of the gun that was used for Jill. Yet, Helen gave them that too. Still, they refuse to investigate. "

Fairfield, CT

#56 Feb 21, 2007
Terri wrote:
Everyone's been busy. Truth is I have a personal interest in this case. I have for years before Helen ever heard from John. So have a few others I know of. Dan, I don't know where he fits in. To the best of my knowledge his Gary was cleared, as with Helen's John. Kdogg's suspect is semi-cleared, at least with the murders of the main 4 kids. I think Michael Grant and Norberg have been too. You just don't know. I don't trust the DNA evidence. The police recently stated that the hair they're using for comparison might not even be the killer's. So, I don't know how they rule anybody out for sure. I don't think they can. I think everyone is trying to make their suspect fit instead of finding a person who does fit. When I first saw Grant I thought he was him for sure, but then I see pictures of these other men who all look a lot a like. Grant fit because of other things besides his looks, so did Norberg. With no reliable DNA to match the killer with, Norberg may still be the guy. They have other suspects right now that are high on their list, not just Lawson and Lamborgine. They just can't give these names to the public. I think it will be a done deal and soon. The families know this. They've been told where they are in the investigation right now. They're just crossing their T's and Dotting their I's, as mom used to say. They're going to have one chance to prove beyond a doubt they have the right people. They don't want a vote of innocent or a hung jury. I hope when that time comes, the killers just confess, plead guilty, and go away. If I was the parent of a victim, I wouldn't want to listen in court to all the details of my child's death. There can be no justice anyway. These people have been free for 30 years now. They're old now. They'll get their justice in the next life. I think it should be solved, so the families can have closure, but there will never be justice here on Earth.
Just a note, as soon as Helen finds out I'm posting here, she'll come attacking. But, I now know about internet fraud and harrassment laws, so she'll stop soon. I had the Free Press post pulled, not her. Check with them, don't just believe what anyone says, that's dumb. The police here in Michigan know her well. Go read her own posts. She hates the cops, they hate her. I don't think she wants anyone to look at anyone else but her and John. I think it's a self esteem thing ? I don't know. I know she does her damndest to get rid of me. I think she's scared I'm right. What will she do when the killers are caught? I guess she can post about how screwed up the system is. Maybe it's better in Indiana where she is? I guess I'll find out, soon. She thinks, posts, that I just want to make money off this case? Well, not just me. But, how would I ? Why would I? Where is this magic money? So, any one want to debate anything without getting kicked off the site by Miss Dagner's private group and rules? Let's talk then. [email protected] Just starting it. But, feel free to post.
Have a good one, Oh Helen, I need to verify your address for the complaint. When I call you tomorrow can you do that for me? Yes, I do.
terri in michigan...near detroit?(rytorical question)

Edmond, OK

#57 Feb 21, 2007
I get it now Gink....took me a minute...LOL
Bill Kipman

Mission Viejo, CA

#58 Feb 21, 2007
This forum is takin' the shape of Dan and his band of followers.....I wonder if anyone can see what is really goin' on round here?
It seems to me Terri is a proxy made up character the
person DB has created.
Readin his posts and the likes of the others namely DB, Terri Dan and afew more I willn't name this place has become a cesspool of tobacco waste product


#65 Feb 21, 2007
DB, if Terri is you..? can come out and say so....with all of your Christian values....but then again...that is why I said I left organized religion along time ago. Too many that believe that they are mightier then me and have some kind of coupon to heaven in the afterlife.....Isn't true and won't happen. Lies.....Typical and you can not disagree with me. I mean no disrespect to anyone here. But it is JMHO. I am spiritual but do not need religion to hold over others that don't belong to a certain one.


#66 Feb 21, 2007
I get soooo tired of the religious card. That is usually a cover for someone that isn't practicing...or are practicing on the outside , but not on the inside. "If a man lusts for a woman with his mind, he has committed the act" because that is what is within his heart. Not Jesus' exact words, but you get my drift. Yes I've read the bible, believe in Jesus in a different sense then most Christians. It is not as simple as Christ and him crucified. Not at all.

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