Possible clue to John's initial lack ...

Possible clue to John's initial lack of involvement

Posted in the JonBenet Ramsey Forum

First Prev
of 8
Next Last
TheJam83

San Francisco, CA

#1 Jul 16, 2015
John was asked for handwriting samples for him and Patsy by a detective soon after they reported the kidnapping. John immediately offered up Patsy's legal pad in addition to writing 'Now is the time for all good men' on a piece of paper as his own exemplar. As we know, the infamous pad would provide investigators with two very important pieces of information -- the fact that the ransom note was written on it and the discovery of practice note within the pad.

If John had written the note (as DocG's blog maintains), there's no way he would have offered up the pad because he'd have no way of knowing he'd be cleared by police as the author of the note. If he knew Patsy wrote it and was in on the cover-up from the start, he also wouldn't have given the officer the pad. John would have discarded of the pad altogether seeing as the killer was careful enough to dispose of the remaining cord and tape. Thoughts?

Since: Jun 15

Spring, TX

#2 Jul 16, 2015
TheJam83 wrote:
John was asked for handwriting samples for him and Patsy by a detective soon after they reported the kidnapping. John immediately offered up Patsy's legal pad in addition to writing 'Now is the time for all good men' on a piece of paper as his own exemplar. As we know, the infamous pad would provide investigators with two very important pieces of information -- the fact that the ransom note was written on it and the discovery of practice note within the pad.
If John had written the note (as DocG's blog maintains), there's no way he would have offered up the pad because he'd have no way of knowing he'd be cleared by police as the author of the note. If he knew Patsy wrote it and was in on the cover-up from the start, he also wouldn't have given the officer the pad. John would have discarded of the pad altogether seeing as the killer was careful enough to dispose of the remaining cord and tape. Thoughts?
I agree completely.
candy

East Lansing, MI

#3 Jul 16, 2015
TheJam83 wrote:
John was asked for handwriting samples for him and Patsy by a detective soon after they reported the kidnapping. John immediately offered up Patsy's legal pad in addition to writing 'Now is the time for all good men' on a piece of paper as his own exemplar. As we know, the infamous pad would provide investigators with two very important pieces of information -- the fact that the ransom note was written on it and the discovery of practice note within the pad.
If John had written the note (as DocG's blog maintains), there's no way he would have offered up the pad because he'd have no way of knowing he'd be cleared by police as the author of the note. If he knew Patsy wrote it and was in on the cover-up from the start, he also wouldn't have given the officer the pad. John would have discarded of the pad altogether seeing as the killer was careful enough to dispose of the remaining cord and tape. Thoughts?
Well, I disagree with that. There's no perfect murder, including this one. John doesn't have to know she wrote the note on THAT pad of paper or that he would have thought SHE would discard of the pad of paper. The police are literally breathing down his neck, so, using CUSTOM AND HABIT, he goes for the closest location HE KNOWS Patsy has a writing pad. Just like the 'REAL KILLER' knew to put back the pen in it's correct location in a cup and the writing pad back in the drawer.

The remaining roll of duct tape and rope were SMALLER items, which would EASILY fit in a pocket of some GOLF CLUBS, which just HAPPENED to be outside the wine cellar door where JonBenet was found dead, and which UNCLE JOHNNY was heard by the Fernies asking about. They would also fit in Patsy's purse, which was not searched when she left the house, or the pocket of her pants, etc.

Then there is the enhanced 911 call which ALLEGEDLY has John Ramsey say to BURKE "We're not talking to you." There's NO innocent explanation for THAT, IMO, especially since both Patsy and John said Burke was ASLEEP then, NOT UP AND TALKING TO THEM.
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#4 Jul 17, 2015
TheJam83 wrote:
John was asked for handwriting samples for him and Patsy by a detective soon after they reported the kidnapping. John immediately offered up Patsy's legal pad in addition to writing 'Now is the time for all good men' on a piece of paper as his own exemplar. As we know, the infamous pad would provide investigators with two very important pieces of information -- the fact that the ransom note was written on it and the discovery of practice note within the pad.
If John had written the note (as DocG's blog maintains), there's no way he would have offered up the pad because he'd have no way of knowing he'd be cleared by police as the author of the note. If he knew Patsy wrote it and was in on the cover-up from the start, he also wouldn't have given the officer the pad. John would have discarded of the pad altogether seeing as the killer was careful enough to dispose of the remaining cord and tape. Thoughts?
I also agree.
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#5 Jul 17, 2015
candy wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I disagree with that. There's no perfect murder, including this one. John doesn't have to know she wrote the note on THAT pad of paper or that he would have thought SHE would discard of the pad of paper. The police are literally breathing down his neck, so, using CUSTOM AND HABIT, he goes for the closest location HE KNOWS Patsy has a writing pad. Just like the 'REAL KILLER' knew to put back the pen in it's correct location in a cup and the writing pad back in the drawer.
The remaining roll of duct tape and rope were SMALLER items, which would EASILY fit in a pocket of some GOLF CLUBS, which just HAPPENED to be outside the wine cellar door where JonBenet was found dead, and which UNCLE JOHNNY was heard by the Fernies asking about. They would also fit in Patsy's purse, which was not searched when she left the house, or the pocket of her pants, etc.
Then there is the enhanced 911 call which ALLEGEDLY has John Ramsey say to BURKE "We're not talking to you." There's NO innocent explanation for THAT, IMO, especially since both Patsy and John said Burke was ASLEEP then, NOT UP AND TALKING TO THEM.
The 911 call where you can ALLEGEDLY hear Burke is ropey at best. No one can say for definate if you can even hear another voice. Not evidence IMO. And as for the Ramseys handing over the pad that wrote the RN , they would have had to been stupid , which they clearly were not.
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#9 Jul 17, 2015
Blue Sage wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you mean by that, "they clearly were not"? How so?
John was clearly not a stupid person he was a self made millionaire. He would of been clever enough not to hand over the notepad from which the RN was written if he knew that.
california_demon

Walnut Creek, CA

#10 Jul 17, 2015
I do think that Burke was up and standing nearby because when asked in the first interview John couldn't recall when he checked on Burke. He wouldn't have to check on him if he was standing right there.

As far as what was said, you have to remember that the Sabrina Aisenberg tapes were thrown out of court by the judge who said that nothing the prosecutors alleged was on the tape was actually there. That was no surprise because people don't talk that way. People do say "We're not talking to you" all the time, it's true, but that phrase can mean a couple of different things.

Why they both lied about Burke being up? Maybe Patsy lied about it first and John had to follow suit. I don't know when they were first asked about it. We know John lied a lot, but most of that seems to have been to protect Patsy. It doesn't necessarily follow that he was involved in the murder and staging.
.
People seem to think that the mere fact that Burke was up means he was involved in the murder. But he probably just got up because they were yelling. It would be more suspicious if he hadn't gotten up.
Just Wondering

Beckley, WV

#11 Jul 17, 2015
candy wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I disagree with that. There's no perfect murder, including this one. John doesn't have to know she wrote the note on THAT pad of paper or that he would have thought SHE would discard of the pad of paper. The police are literally breathing down his neck, so, using CUSTOM AND HABIT, he goes for the closest location HE KNOWS Patsy has a writing pad. Just like the 'REAL KILLER' knew to put back the pen in it's correct location in a cup and the writing pad back in the drawer.
The remaining roll of duct tape and rope were SMALLER items, which would EASILY fit in a pocket of some GOLF CLUBS, which just HAPPENED to be outside the wine cellar door where JonBenet was found dead, and which UNCLE JOHNNY was heard by the Fernies asking about. They would also fit in Patsy's purse, which was not searched when she left the house, or the pocket of her pants, etc.
Then there is the enhanced 911 call which ALLEGEDLY has John Ramsey say to BURKE "We're not talking to you." There's NO innocent explanation for THAT, IMO, especially since both Patsy and John said Burke was ASLEEP then, NOT UP AND TALKING TO THEM.
And no one knows what Burke managed to smuggle out of the home that morning when they sent him off with Fleet White. After all, John had already told the police the lie that Burke had slept through the night and knew nothing so the police didn't even question him before he was whisked away.

You are right. John may have had no idea on which pad Patsy had written the note. In addition, since the paper was torn from the middle of the pad, he may have deduced that the police would not check through the entire pad. At any rate, the ransom note was written on paper whose composition would have matched any of the many note pads Patsy apparently had lying around their home. It would do no good to dispose of one without disposing of all. And that would have been impossible without being noticed by friends or family. But, how fortuitous for sure, that he should pick up the very one on which the note was written.
Just Wondering

Beckley, WV

#12 Jul 17, 2015
california_demon wrote:
I do think that Burke was up and standing nearby because when asked in the first interview John couldn't recall when he checked on Burke. He wouldn't have to check on him if he was standing right there.
As far as what was said, you have to remember that the Sabrina Aisenberg tapes were thrown out of court by the judge who said that nothing the prosecutors alleged was on the tape was actually there. That was no surprise because people don't talk that way. People do say "We're not talking to you" all the time, it's true, but that phrase can mean a couple of different things.
Why they both lied about Burke being up? Maybe Patsy lied about it first and John had to follow suit. I don't know when they were first asked about it. We know John lied a lot, but most of that seems to have been to protect Patsy. It doesn't necessarily follow that he was involved in the murder and staging.
.
People seem to think that the mere fact that Burke was up means he was involved in the murder. But he probably just got up because they were yelling. It would be more suspicious if he hadn't gotten up.
I think the fact that they chose to CLAIM he wasn't awake is HIGHLY unusual and suspect. No one would believe that parents wouldn't awaken their other children to determine if they heard or saw anything abnormal during the night. THEIR DAUGHTER WAS JUST KIDNAPPED for Heavens sake.

Or as Patsy would state it on the 911 call: "We have a kidnapping." Sounds as if she had been watching too many police shows since that is more or less how a policeman would call in his impersonal observations of a crime scene.

Since: Jul 14

Location hidden

#13 Jul 17, 2015
Just Wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
Or as Patsy would state it on the 911 call: "We have a kidnapping." Sounds as if she had been watching too many police shows since that is more or less how a policeman would call in his impersonal observations of a crime scene.
This struck me as severely odd the first time I read the call transcript and it still does. Yes, people react differently to all situations but to use police lingo like this is totally absurd.

Since: Jul 14

Location hidden

#14 Jul 17, 2015
rainbow wrote:
<quoted text>
John was clearly not a stupid person he was a self made millionaire. He would of been clever enough not to hand over the notepad from which the RN was written if he knew that.
Exactly. He didn't realize until later that his wife was responsible.
california_demon

Walnut Creek, CA

#15 Jul 17, 2015
Just Wondering wrote:
I think the fact that they chose to CLAIM he wasn't awake is HIGHLY unusual and suspect. No one would believe that parents wouldn't awaken their other children to determine if they heard or saw anything abnormal during the night. THEIR DAUGHTER WAS JUST KIDNAPPED for Heavens sake.
Or as Patsy would state it on the 911 call: "We have a kidnapping." Sounds as if she had been watching too many police shows since that is more or less how a policeman would call in his impersonal observations of a crime scene.
That's actually an argument for their innocence: if they were worried about how it looked, they would have said they'd awakened him and asked him questions because "no one would believe that parents wouldn't awaken their other children."
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#16 Jul 17, 2015
Blackstone Again wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly. He didn't realize until later that his wife was responsible.
So do you think Patsy wrote the note in secret? When would you suggest JR found out about it? From the long winded RN I think someone who was used to being in the Ramseys home wrote it. But not PR or JR.
california_demon

Walnut Creek, CA

#17 Jul 17, 2015
Do people really notice and remember pads of paper lying around their friends' houses? I guess if I really felt I needed to get rid of some pads of paper, I'd get rid of them and take the risk that some people might have a dim memory of my having lined paper around the house.

Requested to provide handwriting samples, "without hesitation" John handed over one tablet containing business notes of his and another one with lists written by Patsy. Either he thought Patsy's handwriting in the ransom note was well-disguised or he didn't recognize the ransom note handwriting as Patsy's--either because it wasn't or the handwriting was actually fairly well-disguised. Covering all bases here.

I agree that John is smart. He got his degree in electrical engineering. I've known a lot of electrical engineers and they've all been very, very smart. Patsy was no slouch in the brains department either.
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#19 Jul 17, 2015
Blue Sage wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course he did. I think this is why he felt confident handing it over.
No one as clever as JR would have handed over the pad that wrote the RN to the BPD.
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#20 Jul 17, 2015
california_demon wrote:
Do people really notice and remember pads of paper lying around their friends' houses? I guess if I really felt I needed to get rid of some pads of paper, I'd get rid of them and take the risk that some people might have a dim memory of my having lined paper around the house.
Requested to provide handwriting samples, "without hesitation" John handed over one tablet containing business notes of his and another one with lists written by Patsy. Either he thought Patsy's handwriting in the ransom note was well-disguised or he didn't recognize the ransom note handwriting as Patsy's--either because it wasn't or the handwriting was actually fairly well-disguised. Covering all bases here.
I agree that John is smart. He got his degree in electrical engineering. I've known a lot of electrical engineers and they've all been very, very smart. Patsy was no slouch in the brains department either.
So in your opinion Patsy wrote the RN without John even knowing?
berrytea333

Saint Louis, MO

#21 Jul 17, 2015
rainbow wrote:
<quoted text>
No one as clever as JR would have handed over the pad that wrote the RN to the BPD.
Why do you dismiss one's deep down need to come clean?
california_demon

Walnut Creek, CA

#22 Jul 17, 2015
rainbow wrote:
So in your opinion Patsy wrote the RN without John even knowing?
Yes, but I did allow for other scenarios.

Since: Jul 14

Location hidden

#23 Jul 17, 2015
rainbow wrote:
<quoted text>
So do you think Patsy wrote the note in secret? When would you suggest JR found out about it? From the long winded RN I think someone who was used to being in the Ramseys home wrote it. But not PR or JR.
I don't think John knew what happened until he and Patsy were alone together at the White's when Patsy was drugged out of her mind. I think he became suspicious of Patsy that morning after reading the note which might explain the distance between them. Even if they were not the lovey dovey couple like LHP says, one would think they would have put on an act in front of LE. John probably couldn't bring himself to do that if his mind was filled with suspicion. It also might explain his "inside job" comment to Arndt. I also don't think he would have allowed or dictated such a long note. He wasn't a drama queen.
rainbow

Tadworth, UK

#24 Jul 17, 2015
Blackstone Again wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think John knew what happened until he and Patsy were alone together at the White's when Patsy was drugged out of her mind. I think he became suspicious of Patsy that morning after reading the note which might explain the distance between them. Even if they were not the lovey dovey couple like LHP says, one would think they would have put on an act in front of LE. John probably couldn't bring himself to do that if his mind was filled with suspicion. It also might explain his "inside job" comment to Arndt. I also don't think he would have allowed or dictated such a long note. He wasn't a drama queen.
So they stayed together after, even though John knew?

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 8
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

JonBenet Ramsey Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Charlie Brennan story, 9/29/18, release of inv.... 4 hr Biz 18
What in the heck kept that pineapple "FRESH"? 6 hr Anonymous 45
Welcome to Coffee Talk 16 hr Diamond Lil 78
THE STINES ~ Glen, Doug & Susan Stine (Jun '10) 17 hr Dedred 89
JonBenet's Pink Pajamas (Feb '15) 20 hr Anonymous 38
Hunter: ST was already going to resign (Jan '07) 22 hr Anonymous 92
Strongest Piece of Evidence (Mar '18) 23 hr Anonymous 4