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41 - 60 of 66 Comments Last updated Oct 30, 2013
jatterjink

Troy, ID

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#49
Feb 24, 2007
 
The thing about the phone records can be easily answered if they were looked at correctly. Any computer file needs to be viewed 'live' on the system, platform, and mainframe where it originated. Paper evidence should no be acceptable in the justice system.

Any company that works with a database that includes billing information provides for a name change opportunity as women commonly marry and get new names. This can however, be used for more sinister purposes. People wishing to escape paying bills may try to use the opportunity to change the name on a file and in essence alter or erase the entire file. The original files are maintained just buried under a different name.

The Ramsey cell phone records need to be viewed as a live file where information such as the date of creation and dates any changes were made would be available. This is no longer the 20th century where paper evidence will suffice. There are two other such computer files along with the cell phone records that should have been investigated years ago. One at Mattel for a doll ordered and delivered to JonBenet at Access Graphics well after she was dead and another with UPS documenting the delivery.

On January 1,1997 an order received in the mail was processed into the toy company computer in Middleton, Wisconsin. The order appeared to be placed by JonBenet, paid for with a money order, and shipped it to herself at her father's office. The doll was shipped January 2, 1997 by UPS and assigned a tracking number.

There were unsourced tan cotton fibers found at the scene that descriptively match the tan cotton fibers of the doll's cloth torso. There was an unsourced piece of duct tape on JonBenet's mouth and the doll company trained employees to tell parents to apply duct tape if there was a problem brushing the hair. This unsourced piece was the right size to have been on the doll. There were unsourced dark blue fibers found on JonBenet's body and her shirt. One of the dolls removed was dressed in a skirt of visibly shedding navy wool.

Why didn't John Ramsey take the doll he removed and the duplicate to the authorities to try and catch the killer? It could have had fingerprints, DNA, that kind of evidence. Why didn't the Boulder DA ever question John or Patsy Ramsey about the dolls?

http://www.geocities.com/pinker44
jitterjank

Troy, ID

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#50
Feb 24, 2007
 
Anyone who claims John Ramsey ran a successful computer business without a cell phone for an entire month needs to rethink why they believe the Ramseys aren't responsible for the death of JonBenet.
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

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#51
Feb 25, 2007
 
There was an interesting discussion about the Ramsey phones, with Ramsey lawyer Lin Wood, at the Steve Thomas deposition in 2001:

16 Q. Did you all ever have a dump

17 placed on the Ramsey phone?

18 A. Like a trap and trace or a wire

19 tap?

20 Q. An LUD or an Amadump, where you

21 actually go in and get the outgoing calls and

22 the incoming calls?

23 A. What that sounds, in the jargon

24 I'm familiar with, Mr. Wood, is in Colorado

25 we would call that like a trap and trace.

420

1 But I think it's different because you have

2 to be up on the trap and trace to record

3 incoming/outgoing, also known as a pen

4 register. But a dump, whereas anything prior

5 -- I'm not explaining this well.

6 Q. Let me see if I can help. Was

7 there a mechanism in Boulder that would allow

8 you to go to the phone company and say I

9 want you to go back and tell me today on the

10 26th of December all outgoing and ingoing

11 calls to the Ramsey number for, say, the last

12 two or three days?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You had to do it forward, not

15 backward?

16 A. Right, I'm not familiar with any

17 -- the phone company here having any

18 capability to do that.

19 Q. Do you know for a fact that they

20 could not?

21 A. With the exception, and I don't

22 know how detailed you want to get into this,

23 but certainly toll calls, toll calls you can

24 certainly go back and retrieve.

25 Q. Long-distance toll calls?

421

1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Did you all do that with the

3 Ramsey records?

4 A. I think so.
fachinkerjat

Lewiston, ID

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#52
Mar 8, 2007
 
It appears the important phone records are not necessarily those of the Ramseys alone but also those of their attorneys and the Boulder DA's office. These would be cell phones and/or private home phones that would have been used late Dec 25th or early Dec 26th when offices were closed.

Were there calls between John Ramsey's attorneys and anyone woking for the DA's office before 6AM on 12/26/1996?

This avenue certainly has never been addressed other than Steve Thomas' attempt to get the Ramsey's records. I think he went down the wrong street.
Tired Of Censorship

Since: Nov 06

Palo Alto, CA

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#53
Mar 8, 2007
 
Attempting to get the phone records for the parents of a kidnapped/murdered child is really SOP for any police department, so I don’t understand why Henrietta is trying to make it sound so devious.

Again with the “interesting conversations” Henrietta keeps wasting bandwidth on, they are not much more than orations from the Ramsey attorney, and have very little to do with an actual “interview” scenario. We all know Wood was hired to deflect anything and everything asked of the Ramseys, why don’t you just link to the so-called interviews instead of reposting them? It’s not like they are new, they have been posted on the net for years.

The poor poor Ramseys! Got asked a few questions by the BPD so they could put the crime in perspective. If they had just answered instead of evaded through their bulldog,(if they had not been guilty), even the inept BPD could have moved on. As it was, they stayed out of jail, but there was always the finger pointing back at them. It just proves they had something to hide.

In a “REAL” scenario when the parents are innocent of any knowledge of the crime, they lay all their dirty laundry on the table in an effort to find out what happened to their child, regardless of the personal sacrifice to themselves, or their marriage, or their appearances. They bare their souls for information of what happened and why. They get angry. They hound the police. Did the Ramseys do this? NO. What did they do? They acted indignant that anyone would think someone of their social standing could possibly have anything to with the murder of their child, they forgave the killer within 7 days, and said they needed to move on with their lives!(Go fetch THAT interview why don’t you Henrietta?) Oh wait, I get it, it might not make the Ramseys appear in a favorable light!
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

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#54
Mar 8, 2007
 
It was nothing to do with the Ramseys that poor old Steve Thomas couldn't get hold of the phone records.

The former Boulder DA Alex Hunter refused to allow Steve Thomas the phone records because Steve Thomas was leaking confidential and sensitive police information to the media for money.

The Ramseys provided all the information they knew about the JonBenet case at the police interviews. The Ramseys just wanted those police interviews to be held at a convenient time, that's all. Not just before JonBenet's funeral, or when they were both under heavy medication from severe shock. Why is that too much too ask of the Ramseys, particularly as they're innocent?

I've never been involved in a serious traffic accident where anybody was killed or injured. I would resent being given a hostile interrogation by the police at the scene of the accident when blood was pouring all down my face from hitting the car windscreen and I was half stunned as a result at the time.

That interview with the Ramseys in Atlanta was a con trick by the Boulder police, and their lawyers. Bruce Levin, the Boulder police lawyer suggested to the Ramseys that John's shirt fibers were in JonBenet's crotch area and that Patsy's fibers were in the ligature and paint tray. Lin Wood was angry about that, yes angry.

Levin didn't provide a shred of real evidence to back up those accusations. When Lin Wood asked him for the forensic reports about the matter Levin just said he didn't have the reports with him.

In the Steve Thomas deposition a year later Steve Thomas said on oath that the only Patsy fibers which were supposed to have been found were on the duct tape and nowhere else. We still don't know for sure if Dr Henry Lee planted those four red fibers on the duct tape when he was employed by the Boulder police.

In the Dr Jeffrey MacDonald case the MacDonald prosecutors said in their closing speech to the jury that MacDonald pajama fibers were on the murder weapon when in fact they were black wool fibers from an unknown source. That was absolutely outrageous. MacDonald prosecutors Murtagh and Blackburn have never been punished for telling those lies in court.

Lin Wood was quite right. If Levin had asked the Ramseys what they thought about the suggestion that Gary was involved in JonBenet's murder, Lin Wood, and any other lawyer, would have said that was a silly question which the Ramseys couldn't be expected to answer.
Fools Gold

Cape Coral, FL

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#55
Mar 8, 2007
 
fachinkerjat wrote:
It appears the important phone records are not necessarily those of the Ramseys alone but also those of their attorneys
Actually, those records were obtained illegally and marketed for profit to the tabloids and others.

There were NO calls from the Ramsey house prior to the 911 call on that morning.
Tired Of Censorship

Since: Nov 06

Palo Alto, CA

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#56
Mar 8, 2007
 
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
It was nothing to do with the Ramseys that poor old Steve Thomas couldn't get hold of the phone records.
The former Boulder DA Alex Hunter refused to allow Steve Thomas the phone records because Steve Thomas was leaking confidential and sensitive police information to the media for money..
The DA refused ANYONE access to the records, not just ST, and not for leaking anything! Do you make this stuff up as you go along?
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
The Ramseys provided all the information they knew about the JonBenet case at the police interviews. The Ramseys just wanted those police interviews to be held at a convenient time, that's all. Not just before JonBenet's funeral, or when they were both under heavy medication from severe shock. Why is that too much too ask of the Ramseys, particularly as they're innocent?.
Oh, are the poor widdle wamseys the only people in the world to have ever suffered shock or grief? I would suggest you open you mini-mind and look at children everywhere who are kidnapped and killed EVERY DAY, and look at how those parents react. Murder doesn’t seem to necessitate “convenient” interviews. They brought every bit of this on themselves, the poor widdle victims.
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
I've never been involved in a serious traffic accident where anybody was killed or injured. I would resent being given a hostile interrogation by the police at the scene of the accident when blood was pouring all down my face from hitting the car windscreen and I was half stunned as a result at the time..
I don’t seem to remember blood spurting from John or Patsy which would inhibit them being questioned by the police regarding the circumstances regarding the death of their daughter. Their actions did however leave blood on their hands, didn’t it?
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
In the Steve Thomas deposition a year later Steve Thomas said on oath that the only Patsy fibers which were supposed to have been found were on the duct tape and nowhere else. We still don't know for sure if Dr Henry Lee planted those four red fibers on the duct tape when he was employed by the Boulder police..
Dr. Lee PLANTED EVIDENCE? Now you are getting just plain stupid.
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
In the Dr Jeffrey MacDonald case the MacDonald prosecutors said in their closing speech to the jury that MacDonald pajama fibers were on the murder weapon when in fact they were black wool fibers from an unknown source. That was absolutely outrageous. MacDonald prosecutors Murtagh and Blackburn have never been punished for telling those lies in court..
McDonald is right where he belongs for the murder(s) of his family.
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

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#57
Mar 8, 2007
 
Tired Of Censorship wrote:
<quoted text>
Dr. Lee PLANTED EVIDENCE? Now you are getting just plain stupid.
<quoted text>
McDonald is right where he belongs for the murder(s) of his family.
Are you seriously telling me that Dr Henry Lee hasn't manufactured and fabricated forensic evidence in other murder cases? You need to take a detailed look at the OJ case.

Dr MacDonald is an innocent man. He was convicted by people who were biased, and even corrupt.

It was only Steve Thomas who seemed to complain about the phone records. Steve Thomas mentioned that matter in his resignation letter in 1998. Steve Thomas was only annoyed because Alex Hunter wouldn't clear Fleet White, and then Steve Thomas couldn't tell Fleet White about the phone records, so that they could make some money out of it.

It' not a question of the Ramseys being wimps, or too upset to go to the police station. The Ramseys were within their legal rights not to go to the police station. If Tired of Censorship is so annoyed about that don't blame me. Blame the Boulder police for not arresting the innocent Ramseys. Write to somebody to get that law changed, and the American Constitution altered.

It's no use saying Lou Smit would have taken the Ramseys to the police station. If you ask me Lou Smit has been out of the Ramsey case since 1998:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.— Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution"

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

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#58
Mar 8, 2007
 
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you seriously telling me that Dr Henry Lee hasn't manufactured and fabricated forensic evidence in other murder cases? You need to take a detailed look at the OJ case.
Dr MacDonald is an innocent man. He was convicted by people who were biased, and even corrupt.
It was only Steve Thomas who seemed to complain about the phone records. Steve Thomas mentioned that matter in his resignation letter in 1998. Steve Thomas was only annoyed because Alex Hunter wouldn't clear Fleet White, and then Steve Thomas couldn't tell Fleet White about the phone records, so that they could make some money out of it.
It' not a question of the Ramseys being wimps, or too upset to go to the police station. The Ramseys were within their legal rights not to go to the police station. If Tired of Censorship is so annoyed about that don't blame me. Blame the Boulder police for not arresting the innocent Ramseys. Write to somebody to get that law changed, and the American Constitution altered.
It's no use saying Lou Smit would have taken the Ramseys to the police station. If you ask me Lou Smit has been out of the Ramsey case since 1998:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.— Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution"
Accusing Dr. Lee is blatant libel.
It wasn't only Steve who complained about the DA not doing his job.

You said : ""The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause..."

Are you not thinking a child murdered in their home is not probable cause? What a joke! People can certainly be questioned within the Fourth Amendment and not have their rights violated.

Your position on the "innocent" (NOT!) Ramseys and the "innocent" McDonald (NOT!) are beyond the pale!
Henrietta McPhee

Bristol, UK

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#59
Mar 9, 2007
 
It's not a question of emotion that the Ramseys weren't arrested. It's about the law.

If Legal_Eagle is all upset that the Boulder police didn't arrest the Ramseys, and haul them down to Boulder police station for a hostile interrogation on 26th December then he/she should complain to the Boulder police, not moan about it on an internet forum.

It took months for the Boulder police to try and gather, and collect, any evidence at all against the Ramseys. The Boulder police arranged an arrest warrant which the Boulder DA at the time Alex Hunter refused to sign.

In Alex Hunter's independent legal opinion there was not enough evidence to prosecute the Ramseys. A good judge, not a bad judge as in the MacDonald case, would have thrown the case out immediately.

A political decision was then taken to have a Ramsey case Grand Jury. The hired Boulder police forensic consultant Dr Henry Lee then asked the Boulder police to get hold of the clothes the Ramseys were wearing at the time of the murder. This was all a year after the murder.

Miracle of miracles four red fibers are then found on the duct tapes which are supposed to be similar and consistent with Patsy's clothes. That was the only evidence the Boulder police had against the Ramseys which the Boulder police were ever able to present to the Grand Jury.

The police need to learn something about careful investigation into these difficult murders. Not just jumping to conclusions in the first twenty minutes.

Things aren't perfect in the UK. My own police area has a long list of unsolved murders. There have been cases in the British newspapers where British detctives have been sent to prison for corruption, and for being pedophiles.

I don't have much confidence in the P.C. Plods on the streets of my own city. They mostly recruit women and ethnics now, and if they ever say anybody is black they are immediately fired. I have heard that cops in America spend a lot of their time just shouting at the homeless.

Dr Jeffrey MacDonald was cleared by a military court in 1970 when he was given a fair trial. Dr MacDonald was convicted by a kangaroo court in North Carolina in 1979 when his exculpatory Brady material evidence was hidden from the jury, and from his own defense team. That's against the law.

“If life gives you melons”

Since: Nov 06

You might be dyslexic

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#60
Mar 9, 2007
 
Henrietta McPhee wrote:
Dr Jeffrey MacDonald was cleared by a military court in 1970 when he was given a fair trial. Dr MacDonald was convicted by a kangaroo court in North Carolina in 1979 when his exculpatory Brady material evidence was hidden from the jury, and from his own defense team. That's against the law.
Why doesn't Henrietta do something about it then?

You seem to keep dodging the real issues in the Ramsey case maybe you would have more luck in the McDonald case!
candy

East Lansing, MI

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#61
Mar 3, 2013
 
I'm bumping up this thread, as another board is trying to claim the only phone records obtained in this case were sealed with the plea deal by the Rapps. Well, that plea deal was in 1999, the grand jury met in September of 1998, and if phone records were still available then, Mike Kane could have subpoened them. Steve Thomas said by the time he left in 1998, the BPD still had not received phone records. Fools Gold claims the Ramsey voluntarily turned them over. Henri on this thread also posted the jaw dropping list of what the Rapp's obtained regarding the Ramsey case phone records, etc.

Since: Jul 10

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#64
Oct 11, 2013
 

Judged:

1

1

1

Scotland Yard is going through cell phone tower records of Portugal looking into Madelyn McCann's disappearance.

It would likely be a worthwhile venture to look at the records of the cell phone towers of Boulder and Colorado from Christmas 1996. The middle of the night and early morning, how many calls would that be?

Surely John Ramsey would want this looked into, even foot the bill unless he was involved in his daughter's death. Surely the Boulder DA would accommodate such an undertaking unless they don't want the truth released either.

“YES”

Since: Mar 07

TWICE

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#65
Oct 11, 2013
 

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moonjack wrote:
Scotland Yard is going through cell phone tower records of Portugal looking into Madelyn McCann's disappearance.
It would likely be a worthwhile venture to look at the records of the cell phone towers of Boulder and Colorado from Christmas 1996. The middle of the night and early morning, how many calls would that be?
Surely John Ramsey would want this looked into, even foot the bill unless he was involved in his daughter's death. Surely the Boulder DA would accommodate such an undertaking unless they don't want the truth released either.
It will be wonderful if there is any progress on the McCann case. I will keep my fingers crossed for some eureka moment

As for the JBR case, I'm wondering if the GJ had some phone records to probe or if another GJ can be called and probe them now. I think there are answers to be found in those records for sure

Since: Jul 10

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#66
Oct 11, 2013
 
What I had read about Madelyn is the possibility a burglary ring was involved - making Madelyn a witness who was either silenced or considered a commodity and sold. I think the focus is on known small time crooks.

There is still hope she is alive.

Since: May 11

AOL

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#67
Oct 11, 2013
 

Judged:

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moonjack wrote:
Scotland Yard is going through cell phone tower records of Portugal looking into Madelyn McCann's disappearance.
It would likely be a worthwhile venture to look at the records of the cell phone towers of Boulder and Colorado from Christmas 1996. The middle of the night and early morning, how many calls would that be?
Surely John Ramsey would want this looked into, even foot the bill unless he was involved in his daughter's death. Surely the Boulder DA would accommodate such an undertaking unless they don't want the truth released either.
He said he was going to "call in the Russian Army", LOL, maybe the line was busy. Would a busy signal show up on the records? I guess he thought he was soooooooo important the Russian Army would drop their vodka and come running, but how would the Fat Cat get their number?
candy

East Lansing, MI

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#68
Oct 11, 2013
 
Phone records only lasted a year or two in Colorado then. If he used a landline, like Patsy did to dial 911, then a local call would not show up. I don't know if by the time the grand jury was convened in September, 1998, those phone records were able to be obtained by subpoena or not. Mike Kane made a reference to the need to call a grand jury much earlier, because of the need to preserve records.

Since: Jul 10

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#69
Oct 11, 2013
 
I think this is something different than individual phone records or bills. These are tower records, likely all computerized and condensed. It may be something that does exist in Colorado. Like using the back door instead of the proper front door. It's a huge undertaking for Scotland Yard. It's only going to show numbers and the rest has to be deciphered, the names.
candy

East Lansing, MI

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#70
Oct 11, 2013
 
moonjack wrote:
I think this is something different than individual phone records or bills. These are tower records, likely all computerized and condensed. It may be something that does exist in Colorado. Like using the back door instead of the proper front door. It's a huge undertaking for Scotland Yard. It's only going to show numbers and the rest has to be deciphered, the names.
I think this whole second investigation is absurd. None of what they are doing with phone towers would be remotely legal in this country. What happened to the 38 NEW suspects they talked about? They all flamed out fast, just like many figured they would. Why didn't they wait until the list "narrowed down"? Why would a LONE pedophile be calling ANYONE? Who is he going to brag to, "hey mom, I'm bringing home a kid I just adopted." Who did Ariel Castro or Michael Devlin call to brag they just kidnapped someone? NO ONE.

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