Alternative Immigration Reform Plan - Weigh In

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dwg

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#43
Feb 3, 2013
 

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NTRPRNR1 wrote:
<quoted text>I understand your POV. Mine is different. You want all who came in violation of the law forgiven and provided the opportunity to become Americans. I disagree with you. I've explained that my concerns are also for American and legal immigrant workers who have lost jobs to illegal workers. I'd like to help them, and I'd like to improve life for those current illegals who are permitted to stay. We just have different points of view. I also want to stop more people from entering this nation and setting up housekeeping and driving down wages. Apparently, you don't care about that. I do. Just because you WANT to do something doesn't make it okay. I don't have to surrender part of my property to somebody who pitches a tent and decides they like the place and want amnesty to stay living on my property. I don't care that the local farmer wants them on my property so they can work for him cheap. Understand? At any rate, I think you've expressed yourself and your POV.
[QUOTE who=""..." "]<quoted text>[/QUOTE]
........ also want to stop more people from entering this nation and setting up housekeeping and driving down wages. Apparently, you don't care about that. I do. Just because
[QUOTE who=""..." "]<quoted text>[/QUOTE]

Hi NTRPRNR1,

Thank you so much for your attention, and we WILL BE with you soon to explain our POV.

GOD BLESS YOU
DWG
http://www.youtube.com/watch ...

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#44
Feb 3, 2013
 

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Jaxxon wrote:
<quoted text>
I know I keep sticking my nose in, but I think this is a fascinating conversation.
Is it fair to say that one of the underlying principles of what you're proposing would be to make it more difficult for employers to hire undocumented workers in the future?
Exactly. That's where the "knowingly hire" formula they currently dodge is rendered moot. They can't hide behind the anti-discrimination laws to avoid a fine or penalty for not knowing. They would definitely have a way to know under this proposal.
dwg

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#45
Feb 3, 2013
 
Dee Dee Dee wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously they are not going to go home as long as the immigration laws are not enforced. In fact just like every previous amnesty even more will come here illegally once amnesty is granted. The number of those who are supported by our tax dollars will only increase once they are granted amnesty and easier access to our entitlement system. If you think our government will focus on “removing those who are supported primarily through tax dollars” you are truly naive. Look at all the sob stories in the media. Most of the people they focus on are people who are supported primarily through tax dollars already, even though they are here illegally and definitely will be if amnesty is granted. People who are sick, single women with more kids than they completed in school, elderly people etc. Do you really think this country will put them at the head of the deportation line with those who have been convicted of “serious” crimes and allow only the honest, intelligent, motivated and hard working to stay?
Those that employ illegal aliens will continue to employ illegal aliens even if most are legalized because those employers do not want legal workers. It is much more difficult to exploit legal workers and since the pro-illegal groups are demanding amnesty without increased border security and immigration enforcement there will be no shortage of illegal workers. Many of those now working illegally will find that once they are legal there will be no jobs for them because they will be replaced by illegal aliens.
THINK TANK, tecnology for goods.

Many amnesty years ago happens because they not have our tecnology we have today.

We can deport all but American voters wanna see this tecnology works on the system not on the people.

After this amnesty for sure people in their country of origem know that is very dificult to have a job, open bank account , no more social services, no ITIN , ETC

Thanks
Dwg
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

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#46
Feb 3, 2013
 

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Dee Dee Dee wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously they are not going to go home as long as the immigration laws are not enforced. In fact just like every previous amnesty even more will come here illegally once amnesty is granted. The number of those who are supported by our tax dollars will only increase once they are granted amnesty and easier access to our entitlement system. If you think our government will focus on “removing those who are supported primarily through tax dollars” you are truly naive. Look at all the sob stories in the media. Most of the people they focus on are people who are supported primarily through tax dollars already, even though they are here illegally and definitely will be if amnesty is granted. People who are sick, single women with more kids than they completed in school, elderly people etc. Do you really think this country will put them at the head of the deportation line with those who have been convicted of “serious” crimes and allow only the honest, intelligent, motivated and hard working to stay?
Those that employ illegal aliens will continue to employ illegal aliens even if most are legalized because those employers do not want legal workers. It is much more difficult to exploit legal workers and since the pro-illegal groups are demanding amnesty without increased border security and immigration enforcement there will be no shortage of illegal workers. Many of those now working illegally will find that once they are legal there will be no jobs for them because they will be replaced by illegal aliens.
40% or more of illegals in this country enter on legitimate visas and fail to leave when their visas expire. THOSE particular illegals aren't planning to go home anytime soon because they hail from far away places in many instances. These are the same folks who are hoping for the same kind of deal we offered everybody in 1986. They are frequently those who would otherwise wait their turns in the line for legal entry, but why bother if you can come now and get it all later?

So, the first thing of significance any CIR should include that could help us all going forward would be to discourage any future illegal entry. Both proposals being floated for consideration do absolutely nothing to discourage more illegal entry. I don't care how many walls you erect on the border, people are like water and dams. They'll find a way. Walls on the border have nothing to do with people legally arriving via airplane either.

This proposal takes pathway to citizenship off the table for any adult who came here illegally. That's a shot heard round the world. "You will not get to retire on Social Security and Medicare in America if you enter illegally." Do you see the point? We need to signal the world "Don't do it. You'll never become one of them if you don't wait your turn."

Now, something is going to get done if Obama fulfills his promise, and it very well may be in the near future. I have only provided an alternative to both proposals that do NOTHING to stem additional illegal entry and which do NOTHING to make anything better for American and legal immigrant workers. I'm certainly willing to hear your suggestions. Comments about how to make this better are welcome.

What I am hoping is that Americans comprehend that another amnesty that mimics the 1986 amnesty is very very likely to result in even more illegal entry and unfair competition which will continue lowering the living standards in America. Failure to find any solution will result in the same thing. The estimate is 37 million illegals in the next decade under the status quo.

Twenty-five years of enforcement failure signals that the ONLY way this gets solved for the benefit of Americans is if we find a viable option beyond the current bone headed proposals.

“Peace”

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#47
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Jaxxon wrote:
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Hey WA.
You've raised an interesting point that merits further discussion and I think it boils down to a very old concept.
"Taxation without representation".
If we are granting permanent residence status, but denying a path to citizenship the there may be an argument to be made that we would be creating a class of workers that would be taxed, but have no right to participate in the government that taxes them.
I think that's why the temporary guest worker status is an interesting idea. If these individuals did just come here looking for work and not citizenship (which the way they came here would indicate) then I think a guest worker program avoids the issue of non representation.
What you will find out is some here are well rooted into our society and they aren't here just to work. They have families that they are with that are permanent residents and American citizens. Most of those people although they will be happy to have the ability to become legal they also want to be Americans. In fact they consider themselves to be American. Citizenship is important to them and perhaps many others that don't have families here. That to me is why we need to make it difficult for those that haven't followed all the rules along the way to become citizens. But not to exclude them from earning that right after they have followed all the other rules.

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#48
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_White American_ wrote:
<quoted text>What you will find out is some here are well rooted into our society and they aren't here just to work. They have families that they are with that are permanent residents and American citizens. Most of those people although they will be happy to have the ability to become legal they also want to be Americans. In fact they consider themselves to be American. Citizenship is important to them and perhaps many others that don't have families here. That to me is why we need to make it difficult for those that haven't followed all the rules along the way to become citizens. But not to exclude them from earning that right after they have followed all the other rules.
Hey, good to see you back!

I think what you're talking about may fall into a category that some people call "chain migration".

My position is very simple. If what you want is to be a citizen, apply for citizenship and wait your turn just like everybody else.

If you don't qualify, too bad.

No one other than a natural born citizen has any right whatsoever to be a citizen of the United States of America.

It's a privilege that should be extended only to those willing to do what the law requires to obtain it.

If a person comes here illegally and then claims they want to be an American citizen my answer is still "No".

I can see allowing many of the people you are talking about to stay under certain specific conditions and only once they are documented and have shown that they qualify, but that's as far as my willingness to compromise on the issue of citizenship goes.

“Peace”

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#49
Feb 3, 2013
 

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NTRPRNR1 wrote:
<quoted text>No. Everybody who has been present for a MINIMUM of 5 years would be eligible. Nobody who has been present for less than 5 years and working on the books and filing a tax return with the IRS would be eligible. Excluded from consideration: anybody totally enabled by cash work or welfare subsidy for American born children, or somebody who never filed a tax return.
We need to make distinctions in the illegal population in order to free up jobs for displaced and sidelined unemployed American and legal immigrant workers. This approach is how we can go about removing some illegal workers for the benefit of American workers.
That's to me been a problem with every other reform that has been done. Taken a number out of the air then excluding anyone that doesn't reach that number doesn't help with the problems we are facing.
I feel it should be open to all to start with. Saying that it would need to be subject to different conditions. After all illegal and legal immigration isn't a one size fits all. Nor should any remedies be. Those types of laws have always left many out of reform and for no good reason. That's also why we have so many immediate family members being split up or forcing some Americans or permanent residents out of America to live in some cases very dangerous areas.
Taking a wag at a number of years isn't taking into consideration the numerous different situations that should warrent a person the ability to stay.
That's just my opinion.

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#50
Feb 3, 2013
 

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Dee Dee Dee wrote:
<quoted text>
Obviously they are not going to go home as long as the immigration laws are not enforced. In fact just like every previous amnesty even more will come here illegally once amnesty is granted. The number of those who are supported by our tax dollars will only increase once they are granted amnesty and easier access to our entitlement system. If you think our government will focus on “removing those who are supported primarily through tax dollars” you are truly naive. Look at all the sob stories in the media. Most of the people they focus on are people who are supported primarily through tax dollars already, even though they are here illegally and definitely will be if amnesty is granted. People who are sick, single women with more kids than they completed in school, elderly people etc. Do you really think this country will put them at the head of the deportation line with those who have been convicted of “serious” crimes and allow only the honest, intelligent, motivated and hard working to stay?
Those that employ illegal aliens will continue to employ illegal aliens even if most are legalized because those employers do not want legal workers. It is much more difficult to exploit legal workers and since the pro-illegal groups are demanding amnesty without increased border security and immigration enforcement there will be no shortage of illegal workers. Many of those now working illegally will find that once they are legal there will be no jobs for them because they will be replaced by illegal aliens.
I don't really understand why you're commenting if you think the cause is lost already. I'm not convinced that it is or there would be no reason to even discuss, much less try to float another kind of plan, in the first place. So, I understand you've surrendered. I just haven't.

“Peace”

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Jaxxon wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, good to see you back!
I think what you're talking about may fall into a category that some people call "chain migration".
My position is very simple. If what you want is to be a citizen, apply for citizenship and wait your turn just like everybody else.
If you don't qualify, too bad.
No one other than a natural born citizen has any right whatsoever to be a citizen of the United States of America.
It's a privilege that should be extended only to those willing to do what the law requires to obtain it.
If a person comes here illegally and then claims they want to be an American citizen my answer is still "No".
I can see allowing many of the people you are talking about to stay under certain specific conditions and only once they are documented and have shown that they qualify, but that's as far as my willingness to compromise on the issue of citizenship goes.
Hi Jax I don't know how long I'll be able to stay but I wanted to get a few 2cents in when I could.
I understand what you are saying but I just don't agree. When has it been that we punish people without any means of redemption for working and taking care of ones families. It never use to be that work was considered a previlege yet that seems to be what we are saying. Our Country was grown by the work of both legal and illegal peoples threwout our history.
Now it seems we only want to demonize the illegals and make sure that they never can be contributing legal citizens. I think that the option of citizenship should never be barred from one. If they have done all the Government has asked of them and apply to be one of us.
From what I see none of those that will be legalized will have an easy road to citizenship nor will it be a short one. After all they will be waiting until all others that have applied to get theirs, as well as they will have to wait several years just to get a green care which is required before they can even apply for citizenship and that green card will have to be held for so many years prior to appling.
All along that road they will be paying fee's for renewed visa's, their fines, taxes and helping to support our economy. The only reason that some want no citizenship is because they feel it will bring in more illegals. That could happen but if it does it won't be for the citizenship. It will be because they want to work and still are able to do so without documentation. That is where we have to focus our efforts. Nothing we do now will make any difference in the long run unless we make it impossible for undocumented to be able to work here. Making work a previlege, ugh. But a necessity in order to control the borders.

“Peace”

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#52
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NTRPRNR1 wrote:
<quoted text>I understand your POV. Mine is different. You want all who came in violation of the law forgiven and provided the opportunity to become Americans. I disagree with you. I've explained that my concerns are also for American and legal immigrant workers who have lost jobs to illegal workers. I'd like to help them, and I'd like to improve life for those current illegals who are permitted to stay. We just have different points of view. I also want to stop more people from entering this nation and setting up housekeeping and driving down wages. Apparently, you don't care about that. I do. Just because you WANT to do something doesn't make it okay. I don't have to surrender part of my property to somebody who pitches a tent and decides they like the place and want amnesty to stay living on my property. I don't care that the local farmer wants them on my property so they can work for him cheap. Understand? At any rate, I think you've expressed yourself and your POV.
I'm also for the American citizen and the permanent residents of this Country. The facts on how much if any illegal immigration has hurt us is showing a much lower, even minimal effect then what many of the anti immigration sites have quoted in the past. In the mean time many families have been separated and even destroyed because of deportation. I'm talking about American and permanent resident families being torn apart.
When you speak about someone coming on your property it's a misleading statement. People come into your Country, your state, your town on a daily basis. That's America. Now just let me know when an illegal pitches a tent on your property and I'll be right there to help you kick him/her off.
:)

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_White American_ wrote:
<quoted text>I'm also for the American citizen and the permanent residents of this Country. The facts on how much if any illegal immigration has hurt us is showing a much lower, even minimal effect then what many of the anti immigration sites have quoted in the past. In the mean time many families have been separated and even destroyed because of deportation. I'm talking about American and permanent resident families being torn apart.
When you speak about someone coming on your property it's a misleading statement. People come into your Country, your state, your town on a daily basis. That's America. Now just let me know when an illegal pitches a tent on your property and I'll be right there to help you kick him/her off.
:)
"anti immigration"

Let's remember to make a distinction between those of us who oppose continued illegal immigration and those far right whack jobs that are in fact anti-immigration.

I (for one) am very much in favor of legal immigration. As a matter of fact. if we could stem the tide of illegal immigration I would very much be in favor of allowing more people to immigrate legally.

I also think that just like some on the far right overstate the negative impact of undocumented workers, there are many on the left that overstate the "benefits" they provide while completely ignoring the negative impact of having more than 10 million people here using resources (health care/schools etc.) that could go to help citizens in need.

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_White American_ wrote:
<quoted text>I'm also for the American citizen and the permanent residents of this Country. The facts on how much if any illegal immigration has hurt us is showing a much lower, even minimal effect then what many of the anti immigration sites have quoted in the past. In the mean time many families have been separated and even destroyed because of deportation. I'm talking about American and permanent resident families being torn apart.
When you speak about someone coming on your property it's a misleading statement. People come into your Country, your state, your town on a daily basis. That's America. Now just let me know when an illegal pitches a tent on your property and I'll be right there to help you kick him/her off.
:)
The facts ignore those American workers who are gravely harmed by illegal competition. If you spread their value across all income sectors, you'll discover that the top 10% of income earners benefit by getting cheaper labor - home or office. On the other hand, wages have actually gone DOWN for those Americans in the low wages sectors where they face illegal competition. Now, what does this mean for the other 70% of working class Americans? It means more of their tax dollars go to support for low income American earners as well as the children of illegal workers. They derive NO benefit just as the bottom 20% is stagnant or in decline.

So, it's really lovely that 10% of Americans enjoy a benefit, but I choose not to concern myself very much with that 10% and what they want, especially when it comes at a cost to everybody else and only assists in widening the income gap and the polarity of wealth in America.

This is not just an issue of compassion for illegals. We must at least show compassion for our fellow Americans who are every bit as impacted by the status quo. At least, that's how I see it and why I object to a broad blanket amnesty that completely ignores the harm already done to lower income sector Americans and legal immigrants. What about them, WA? Not worth spit? Not worth considering in the formula? I just disagree.

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Jaxxon wrote:
<quoted text>
"anti immigration"
Let's remember to make a distinction between those of us who oppose continued illegal immigration and those far right whack jobs that are in fact anti-immigration.
I (for one) am very much in favor of legal immigration. As a matter of fact. if we could stem the tide of illegal immigration I would very much be in favor of allowing more people to immigrate legally.
I also think that just like some on the far right overstate the negative impact of undocumented workers, there are many on the left that overstate the "benefits" they provide while completely ignoring the negative impact of having more than 10 million people here using resources (health care/schools etc.) that could go to help citizens in need.
" anti immigration sites " Not "anti immigration" meaning that I was only referring to the hate sites that have been all about doing away with immigration really of any kind legal/illegal.
I do agree that both extremes have tried their best to emphasis what would help their arguments while disregarding the other aspects. But I do believe that what is coming on of late has taken more of both benefit and negative to into account because of that is more accurate.

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#56
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NTRPRNR1 wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, anybody who hasn't resided and worked in the country for either 5 or 10 years (benchmark to be decided)wouldn't qualify for the program. In order words, those who recently arrived couldn't qualify. Everybody who did meet the minimum requirements would be eligible to apply. If you never paid taxes and only worked for cash, you wouldn't be eligible (i.e., cash pay workers).
So the people who have been here less than 5 (or 10) years will be deported, even if they have worked, paid taxes, and have no criminal record? And are you saying this would be to free up more jobs for US citizens?
dwg

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#57
Feb 3, 2013
 
Jaxxon wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, good to see you back!
I think what you're talking about may fall into a category that some people call "chain migration".
My position is very simple. If what you want is to be a citizen, apply for citizenship and wait your turn just like everybody else.
If you don't qualify, too bad.
No one other than a natural born citizen has any right whatsoever to be a citizen of the United States of America.
It's a privilege that should be extended only to those willing to do what the law requires to obtain it.
If a person comes here illegally and then claims they want to be an American citizen my answer is still "No".
I can see allowing many of the people you are talking about to stay under certain specific conditions and only once they are documented and have shown that they qualify, but that's as far as my willingness to compromise on the issue of citizenship goes.
CITIZENS TO VOTE >>>>>>>

Jaxxon wrote:..."If a person comes here illegally and then claims they want to be an American citizen my answer is still "No"......"

DWG wrote: after thi amnesty 2013

1) first legal status , secound permanent resident and then be a citizens , it will be a long road.

2) everybody need a civic life, civic life to vote, and choose the best lider for their comunity and family.

3) America has democracy in the base.

Like you see democracy can answer your question, America need more VOTERS AND FLAGS that is why we will have AMNESTY this year to put everybody to play the same rules.

Thanks
DWG
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

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#58
Feb 3, 2013
 
_White American_ wrote:
<quoted text>" anti immigration sites " Not "anti immigration" meaning that I was only referring to the hate sites that have been all about doing away with immigration really of any kind legal/illegal.
I do agree that both extremes have tried their best to emphasis what would help their arguments while disregarding the other aspects. But I do believe that what is coming on of late has taken more of both benefit and negative to into account because of that is more accurate.
"anti immigration sites " Not "anti immigration" meaning that I was only referring to the hate sites that have been all about doing away with immigration really of any kind legal/illegal."

Okay thanks for that.

I've spent as much time arguing with those kinds of people that call themselves "pro-enforcement" when what they actually are is anti-immigration as I have anything else since I came to Topix.

I would like to find an acceptable, humane way of dealing with illegal immigration with the focus being on stopping the next wave, but too many people that take up the cause of
illegal immigration" are just hostile toward immigrants and I refuse to be associated with their agenda.

Is it just me or is it nice to be able to discuss this stuff without a bunch of trolls mucking up the conversation?

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#59
Feb 3, 2013
 
NON COMPLACENT TWINK wrote:
I made a long post earlier and it is not showing up. I don't have time to repeat it all so here is the shorter version:
We who want our borders and ports of entry secured and do not want illegal entry into this country to be rewarded are being out voted by our own representatives. The DREAM act is an example, Obama passed his own version and we had nothing to say about it.
We can stomp our feet and scream "NO" all day long but it is not going to have an effect because they are not listening.
I have said for a long time that there will be compromise whether we like it or not. The question now is will we have any input into what is compromised? If citizenship is given it will only hold the door open for the continuous flow to continue to come and wait for the next amnesty.
I don't want to see citizenship in this country become the open invitation it has been nor do I want to continue to see American citizens displaced by illegals in employment or denied benefits they need because an illegal has already gotten them.
It's been obvious for a long time that our government representatives are unwilling to back the buses up, load them and deport all the illegals. Do we continue to say "NO" while our government pushes Americans off the cliff or do we dig our heels in and push back? We have to face the fact that there will be an amnesty, let's try to get some of our views recognized.
The basic principles in the above proposal are far more in favor of American citizens then anything being put forth by those who are supposed to be representing us.
The government states there are only 11 million illegals in this country. We know that number is B.S. What happens if they declare some sort of legalization and we reach that 11 million number and there are still more illegals applying. Are they just going to keep doing more extensions over and over like they did with the 1986 amnesty? Or will they say we have reached the quota the rest of you are out of luck. I doubt it!

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_White American_ wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Jax I don't know how long I'll be able to stay but I wanted to get a few 2cents in when I could.
I understand what you are saying but I just don't agree. When has it been that we punish people without any means of redemption for working and taking care of ones families. It never use to be that work was considered a previlege yet that seems to be what we are saying. Our Country was grown by the work of both legal and illegal peoples threwout our history.
Now it seems we only want to demonize the illegals and make sure that they never can be contributing legal citizens. I think that the option of citizenship should never be barred from one. If they have done all the Government has asked of them and apply to be one of us.
From what I see none of those that will be legalized will have an easy road to citizenship nor will it be a short one. After all they will be waiting until all others that have applied to get theirs, as well as they will have to wait several years just to get a green care which is required before they can even apply for citizenship and that green card will have to be held for so many years prior to appling.
All along that road they will be paying fee's for renewed visa's, their fines, taxes and helping to support our economy. The only reason that some want no citizenship is because they feel it will bring in more illegals. That could happen but if it does it won't be for the citizenship. It will be because they want to work and still are able to do so without documentation. That is where we have to focus our efforts. Nothing we do now will make any difference in the long run unless we make it impossible for undocumented to be able to work here. Making work a previlege, ugh. But a necessity in order to control the borders.
I agree with you WA, that the priority IMO is cracking down on companies and businesses who hire undocumented workers. If a more organized, widespread effort is made in this endeavor, those who are here working illegally will be fired and deported, and more jobs will be freed up for US citizens. Make the employers work with the govt to report illegal workers by imposing huge fines and/or imprisonment for the employers who knowingly employ illegals and do not report during this proposed 90 day "amnesty". It would be a lot easier to locate and deport under these circumstances. If you tell half the people here illegally that there is no way they can stay here longer than 90 days, they are never coming out of the shadows.
I realize this idea will not be popular with Congress.

The amount of people who are here illegally is overwhelming, but we all know there are a variety of reasons that they entered the US, some of which are heartwrenching and compelling. However, the number may be too big to afford them treatment on a case-to-case basis. Still, we are talking about people just like you and me.
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#61
Feb 3, 2013
 
Study: Misclassifying workers costly

Marek has testified before the Texas Workforce Commission several times, hoping the commission will push lawmakers to fix the problem. He said Immigrations and Customs Enforcement has increased its inspections of I-9 forms, the federal employment eligibility verification. But workers found to be ineligible to work here are not always deported. Instead they're often forced to go into an underground, cash-based economy if an unscrupulous employer is willing to misclassify the employee as an independent contractor.

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/article/...
dwg

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#62
Feb 3, 2013
 

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Jaxxon wrote:
<quoted text>
"anti immigration sites " Not "anti immigration" meaning that I was only referring to the hate sites that have been all about doing away with immigration really of any kind legal/illegal."
Okay thanks for that.
I've spent as much time arguing with those kinds of people that call themselves "pro-enforcement" when what they actually are is anti-immigration as I have anything else since I came to Topix.
I would like to find an acceptable, humane way of dealing with illegal immigration with the focus being on stopping the next wave, but too many people that take up the cause of
illegal immigration" are just hostile toward immigrants and I refuse to be associated with their agenda.
Is it just me or is it nice to be able to discuss this stuff without a bunch of trolls mucking up the conversation?
"..........a bunch of trolls mucking up the conversation?....."

2012 election is over and American people want washington to do their job and pass AMNESTY BILL .

DEMOCRACY WORKS

THANKS
DWG

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