Obama takes on power plant emissions ...

Obama takes on power plant emissions as part of climate plan

There are 1518 comments on the Reuters story from Jun 25, 2013, titled Obama takes on power plant emissions as part of climate plan. In it, Reuters reports that:

President Barack Obama will attempt to kick-start a global climate agenda on Tuesday with proposals including a plan to limit carbon emissions from existing U.S. power plants that is sure to face opposition from the coal industry, many business groups and Republican lawmakers.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Reuters.

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gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

#1766 Sep 24, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
I don't know what day this happened or where St. John is....
This article was from 2012.

The CBC reports
Saint John
Canaport LNG
the New Brunswick Museum

A little deductive reasoning or even a quick Google search might have given you a clue that the location was Canada.

I know you're young and inexperienced, but please, try a little harder!

“Work hard at work worth doing.”

Level 10

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#1767 Sep 24, 2013
Ricos Anonymous Proxy wrote:
<quoted text>
Ted Cruz is your fail. He will push many Republicans to vote Democrat!!!
Ted Cruz is proving that he has more tecticular fortitude than most of his counterparts across the aisle and in his own party.
Jeff

Beckley, WV

#1768 Sep 24, 2013
No warmer now than 15 years ago.
SpaceBlues

United States

#1769 Sep 25, 2013
Jeff wrote:
No warmer now than 15 years ago.
What is not?

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Level 10

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#1770 Sep 25, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
You are totally irrational. If you COULD think, you would have thought what a stupid statement it was before you made it.
Tell us first, why would a US President want the destroy the economy of his own country. Then tell us why a US President would want that legacy.
You are a prime example of Teabagger stupidity.
He would do it to push an anticapitalist agenda, when companies have to lay people off because of higher healthcare and energy prices, he'll blame evil corporations.

I didn't write President Obama wants to destroy all of the economy, he's waived the employer mandates for his rich friends in business and the Federal Reserve Bank is putting trillions into the markets (QE2).

Now, Obama wants to add new restrictions to energy production. Down with government regulation, that's why Senator Cruz filibustered!

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1771 Sep 25, 2013
Toutle wrote:
<quoted text>How about all them birds getting killed by cars an little kitty cats maybe we should be against them to just like the parking lots an then there's them darn Hunters killing all them Duck,Geese,Dove's onanonanon get my point Raptor.
Don't get me wrong I like birds to but you guys are just way out there.
Also mother nature doesn't waste anything every thing is hungry an just looking for a meal so don't worry about the bird something well eat them.
Comments like this don't even justify a response. But I'll respond anyway. Let's talk about justification. "Since cats and cars kill birds, who cares if anything else does?," is basically what you're saying. Let's apply that same line of thinking to humans. Since cancer and car accidents kill so many people, why should we attempt to lessen the deaths from fossil fuels, plane crashes, or anything else?

Why would anyone who cares about birds OR humans, think that way?

I don't know what you mean when you say "You guys are WAY OUT THERE."

Us "guys" are no different than you or anyone else. By "way out there," I assume you mean, "Maybe WE know something you don't and are trying to avoid disaster (like mass exinctions of small tropical songbirds) while we still can."

I'd bet odds you've never been bird watching, correct? No, I don't mean you "watched some sparrows" at the bird feeder. I mean seriously went out, binoculars and all, looking for birds.....new birds you've never seen before.

The birds "we people" are out watching and looking for, do not come to bird feeders. They 'mostly' do not even nest near our homes, unless we live in "more natural, unmowed settings." And a good many of the birds we are looking for only pass through this country, or the majority of it, during spring and fall migrations. We only have a few short weeks in which to see them. They are the neotropical migratory songbirds that migrate during the dead of night. Most people don't know they even exist. That is the warblers, vireos, flycatchers, thrushes, grosbeaks, tanagers, buntings, cuckoos and others. "Us people" that are "way out there" do know they exist. And WE don't want to lose them. That is hardly strange, or WAY OUT THERE, IMO. Yet we see it each year...fewer and fewer numbers of these birds (many of them) showing up in our local migration hotspots.

If 5000 Red-eyed Vireos died at that gas plant, and another 5000 Red-eyed Vireos die at 12 wind turbines, and 8000 Red-eyed Vireos die at a skyscraper in NYC, do you really think that's nothing to be concerned about, simply because cats killed another 20,000 Red-eyed Vireos? Really?

Think about that; If more are dying than are successfully fledging AND returning to breed each spring, what happens to the species? It certainly won't be a "natural" extinction if that what it comes to.

How many Red-eyed Vireos did you have singing in your local woods this summer? I had very few compared to previous years. Twenty years ago, they were one of the most abundant songbirds in the woods here. They could be heard around every bend in a trail in every patch of woods. Not so much anymore.

You will most always hear them before you see them. They tend to stay high in the forest canopy all summer long, but they sing constantly.


I had a Red-eyed Vireo stop by my yard last week and pose for the camera. What a treat to see it down so low!

There's a saying...something like; Why would you want to save something you don't even know exists?

That article claimed there were many Red-eyed Vireos among the dead. That's why I used this species as the example.

I don't care if other things eat all the corpses or not. That was a mass die-off that should not have happened.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1772 Sep 25, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, there's a lot to be said for having fairly low power, wide angle binoculars for the small fast moving birds.
During spring migration, thousands of Audubons worked the trees in the front yard & the green belt in the back. Tho 40 feet away, the camera took fairly good pix of the beautiful birds. Ten days ago, got some mediocre pix of the Pelicans on the Washington coast, which stayed a couple hundred yards offshore with tens of thousands of other seabirds.
There is no shortage of yellow-rumps here either. But I am concerned about some of the other warblers.

I had a specieal treat this summer. A Canada nested in the yard up at the cabin. Having only weekends to go up there, I never was able to determine if they had young that fledged successfully. Later I'll put one of my photos of them on the website.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1773 Sep 25, 2013
Toutle wrote:
<quoted text>you got CEDAR WAXWINGS back in Michigan Raptor?
Cedar Waxwings are very common here most of the year. That's the bird that got me hooked!

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1774 Sep 25, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
This article was from 2012.
The CBC reports
Saint John
Canaport LNG
the New Brunswick Museum
A little deductive reasoning or even a quick Google search might have given you a clue that the location was Canada.
I know you're young and inexperienced, but please, try a little harder!
Sorry, but sometimes working a full-time job and trying to run a business and a home limits my Google search time.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1777 Sep 25, 2013
Toutle wrote:
<quoted text>Ok sorry for getting off to a bad start with ya.
I got my bird book out now an RED-EYED VIREO don't make it to the west coast of Washington state only the east side of the Cascade's.
I do live in the middle of the woods an have birds here all the time summer and winter.
Not to get off birds but we have had a little trouble with Deer here for sometime but its getting better now.
The problem was a brown slug that showed up about 30 or 40 year ago an they leave a slim trail on every thing,the native slug's are green an they don't leave slim trail.
The brown ones are only found 1500 an below in elevation.
Anyhow the brown ones leave something on stuff that deer eat an it get's in the deer lungs and there system try's to fight it.
Then the lice over take them and there hair falls out, an if winter is bad they don't make it but they have slowly gotten over it an are making a come back.
Also the brown slug is here to stay for sure there every where in the forest.
I'm sorry too. Sometimes I take things a little too personally. I remember walking down my street at the cabin in Northern MI one evening. One of the neighbors, a nice young woman, was walking down the road with her Mom and they were coming my way. Little did she know, I have very good hearing. It comes from years of birding, and training myself to listen for the slightest little chirp that would help me locate and identify a small songbird from many yards away. Much the way Indians would listen for hoof beats or approaching danger or storms. After a while, you really get in tune to nature.

Anyway, as this lady,(I'll call her Terry,) and her Mom got closer, I heard Terry whisper to her Mother, "She's a birdwatcher." That really blew my mind! It made me wonder, what exactly IS a "bird watcher" to someone who's never done it? Do people really think we are different? All 46 million of us?(as of the 2001 survey.) If I was a stamp collector, would she have whispered, "She's a stamp collector"?

We stopped and made small talk for a few minutes before going our separate ways. Terry has since moved to Georgia. I often wonder if she has ever seen a Painted Bunting down there. If she has, has she too turned into a "bird watcher?" If that bird doesn't convert someone, I don't know what would.


As for the Red-eyed Vireo, my National Geo Field Guide to the Birds of North America shows them awful close to your area. Remember, they have wings and they don't always follow human rules. Keep your eyes and ears open for them in spring and summer. One could even show up during migration if you have a bird bath. Moving water attracts birds like a magnet. You probably get lots of Warbling Vireos in your area.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

I heard about that deer losing their hair thing out west. I didn't know it was because of a slug. An alien species, I presume? Those aliens have a bad habit of wreaking havoc on native wildlife and ecosystems. I'm sure the deer will build an immunity.

When West Nile hit hard here about ten years ago, we thought birds were done. It was so bad, I had to walk my yard every day before letting my dogs outside. Dead and dying birds were everywhere. It affected mostly Goldfinches, House Finches and Blue Jays as far as I could tell. It was sad to see baby Goldfinches begging for food from their parents, but the parents sit there fluffed up and dying, then a few days later the babies were fluffed up too, only to die shortly afterward.

Maybe I noticed those species as being hit the hardest because they are easy to observe at feeders. I didn't notice it so much among the grosbeaks or orioles, who also come to feeders. Though I do recall one Rose-breasted Grosbeak that died from West Nile the following year just days after it arrived in the spring. I drove it two hours one way to a rehabber hoping it could be saved.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1778 Sep 25, 2013
Toutle wrote:
<quoted text>I'v done a lot of bird watching Rapor just not like you and song do.
I could go there real easy thought but I just got to many other thing on my plate if ya know what I mean.
Got a lake real close that has a lot of Birds there year round an if I were to take a mind to it I could spend the rest of my life right there looking at Birds.
The lake is called Silverlake an it's in south west Washington Google it,it's a Birds paradise year round.
I know what you mean about the full plate. I work a lot of hours at a full time job and spend the rest of my time trying to get my business off the ground. I always to find time to get in some birding though. Even if it's just in my yard, I'll sit a ways from the bird bath and wait for something different and interesting to show up. Or I'll go for a walk in the nearby woods. I have kept this coming weekend free to go to the cabin up north. It's near Grayling. Two days of photographing birds and fall color is all I plan on doing.

Silver Lake looks about as beautiful as any lake I've ever seen. Lucky you! You get Varied Thrush there? It's one of my most wanted birds of the Northwest.
PHD

Bryan, TX

#1779 Sep 26, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
Comments like this don't even justify a response. But I'll respond anyway. Let's talk about justification. "Since cats and cars kill birds, who cares if anything else does?," is basically what you're saying. Let's apply that same line of thinking to humans. Since cancer and car accidents kill so many people, why should we attempt to lessen the deaths from fossil fuels, plane crashes, or anything else?
Why would anyone who cares about birds OR humans, think that way?
I don't know what you mean when you say "You guys are WAY OUT THERE."
Us "guys" are no different than you or anyone else. By "way out there," I assume you mean, "Maybe WE know something you don't and are trying to avoid disaster (like mass exinctions of small tropical songbirds) while we still can."
I'd bet odds you've never been bird watching, correct? No, I don't mean you "watched some sparrows" at the bird feeder. I mean seriously went out, binoculars and all, looking for birds.....new birds you've never seen before.
The birds "we people" are out watching and looking for, do not come to bird feeders. They 'mostly' do not even nest near our homes, unless we live in "more natural, unmowed settings." And a good many of the birds we are looking for only pass through this country, or the majority of it, during spring and fall migrations. We only have a few short weeks in which to see them. They are the neotropical migratory songbirds that migrate during the dead of night. Most people don't know they even exist. That is the warblers, vireos, flycatchers, thrushes, grosbeaks, tanagers, buntings, cuckoos and others. "Us people" that are "way out there" do know they exist. And WE don't want to lose them. That is hardly strange, or WAY OUT THERE, IMO. Yet we see it each year...fewer and fewer numbers of these birds (many of them) showing up in our local migration hotspots.
If 5000 Red-eyed Vireos died at that gas plant, and another 5000 Red-eyed Vireos die at 12 wind turbines, and 8000 Red-eyed Vireos die at a skyscraper in NYC, do you really think that's nothing to be concerned about, simply because cats killed another 20,000 Red-eyed Vireos? Really?
Think about that; If more are dying than are successfully fledging AND returning to breed each spring, what happens to the species? It certainly won't be a "natural" extinction if that what it comes to.
How many Red-eyed Vireos did you have singing in your local woods this summer? I had very few compared to previous years. Twenty years ago, they were one of the most abundant songbirds in the woods here. They could be heard around every bend in a trail in every patch of woods. Not so much anymore.
You will most always hear them before you see them. They tend to stay high in the forest canopy all summer long, but they sing constantly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =_yWCGsMjO_cXX
I had a Red-eyed Vireo stop by my yard last week and pose for the camera. What a treat to see it down so low!
There's a saying...something like; Why would you want to save something you don't even know exists?
That article claimed there were many Red-eyed Vireos among the dead. That's why I used this species as the example.
I don't care if other things eat all the corpses or not. That was a mass die-off that should not have happened.
Your issue is making an issue about Wind Mills. Now if you were all in you may have a legitimate argument, discussion so toss out your political agenda and get real.Good Morning.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1780 Sep 26, 2013
PHD wrote:
<quoted text>Your issue is making an issue about Wind Mills. Now if you were all in you may have a legitimate argument, discussion so toss out your political agenda and get real.Good Morning.
My issue is with ANY large structures that would interfere with nocturnal bird migration; be it wind mills, skyscrapers, cell towers, radio towers, etc. Some things can't be changed. They won't tear down skyscrapers and people won't give up their cell phones and radios. But we don't need the wind mills to survive or make our lives more comfortable and convenient. Wind Power is a recent fad because of doomsday people who have nothing better to do than predict doom and gloom.

Think about it. People like to predict the end of civilization because it's exciting and fun to think about. Remember War of the Worlds? Why does The News have all "negative" stuff on it?

BTW, I AM all in, I also believe cats should be removed from the wild because they are not native and don't belong in our natural areas. Pesticides should not be accessible to just anybody, and in fact, probably should not be used at all. People should cover their pools when not in use to prevent bird and animal drowning's. People shouldn't leave garage doors open for birds to get trapped inside. Windows should all have screens on the outside to stop birds from hitting the glass.

And as we've learned, those gas flames at gas plants should not be burning at night during peak migration times, especially if it's foggy.

You want giant wind mills? Make them so they can be lowered at night during migration. That still won't solve the problem of large soaring birds getting hit by the fast spinning blades.

Good morning to you too, Doc.

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Level 10

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#1781 Sep 26, 2013
I had hoped that we could repeal legislation that imposes excessive regulation, higher taxes and wasteful government sending starting with older bills, but Obamacare is as good a place as any.
LessHypeMoreFact

Etobicoke, Canada

#1783 Sep 26, 2013
http://tinyurl.com/kyudxqu

1: It only applies to NEW power plants. So it is not suddenly costing a fortune to replace existing plants.

2:The rules would restrict emissions at new natural gas-fired plants to 1,000 pounds of carbon dioxide per megawatt-hour. New gas-fired plants should easily fit under the new limits because they now produce only about 800 to 850 pounds per megawatt-hour.(due to higher thermal efficiency)

3:The rules would restrict emissions at new coal plants to 1,100 pounds per megawatt-hour. Existing coal plants, produce about 1,800 pounds per megawatt-hour.

Could new coal plants pass this test? Let's see.

According to the DOE/NETL estimates EPA cited in the proposed rulemaking, a new IGCC unit would emit about 1,450 lb CO2/MWh

Could this be improved to elimnate CO2 sequestration? I think it could if new GE gas cogenerator turbines are used for the gas turbine stage. Energy efficiency with the GE 7FA ( tinyurl.com/l3p43kc ) are about 62%. The 'run of the mill' generators for IGCC are about 40% so this gives about a 2 to 3 advantage. That would reduce CO2 per MWH to about 935 lb CO2/MWh. Even considering some 'engineering compromises' this looks doable within the 1100 lb limit.

The value shows about a 50% decrease in CO2 per MWH compared to the existing steam coal power plants (about 32% thermal efficiency) which accords well with industry GTCC (Gas Turbine Combined Cycle) claims of about 59% overall thermal efficiency even using LOW heating value coal. tinyurl.com/l99f6fd

Time to stop letting the coal industry 'play stupid'.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1785 Sep 26, 2013
Toutle wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Raptor.
Varied Thrush come in the yard all the time,see them more in winter months not to much in summer I think they go north for breeding.
Funny thing happen when I googled Grayling the first thing I seen was a lake called Higgens an the reason it was funny is because I got a friend right down the road an his last name is Higgens.lol
That area looks real nice I like the green forest its like that out here also,on the west side of the cascade MT. that is, the east side is brown an dry but the nice thing about that is different kinds of birds there.
I got a PETERSON Field Guide Western Birds book an the birds are not real pic.but somebody did a real nice job drawing the bird.
Say there's been a pair of Pileated woodpeckers around here for years you see any of them they are real cool looking when there flying.
Your Varied Thrush will go north to breed. Some will also move up in elevation, from what I've read.

I have Pileated Woodpeckers at the cabin. It is so quiet where we are and the spruce, pine, fir forest is so dense, when they drum, it echoes loudly! It doesn't take them long to carve out a tree cavity either. I was watching one work on a downed tree on the side of the house last year and he didn't know I was there. Wood chips were flying all over the place.

This is interesting. I Binged 'Grayling' and on the first page I found an interesting link from the DNR. I clicked on it and learned that there used to be a Grayling fish here in MI, but like so many other species that are in trouble, they disappeared much quicker. This is what I fear will happen with our native bird species as we keep building giant structures in the sky that will slaughter thousands of birds in a single evening of migration.(And it could happen year after year) Will we EVER learn from our mistakes? Why must we always be so hasty and wanting everything to happen so quickly? Here is the story.
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-1036...

Actually, our cabin is about 20 miles from Grayling. Here is a photo of the river that's across the street. I feel like I'm in Alaska, or high up in the mountains, when I'm there.
http://www.naturecardsforyou.com/Documents/Bi...

I visited Washington years ago. Too bad I wasn't into birds back then. But I did enjoy the rain forest up there. Very unique habitat (and weather) to be sure. We also went to the San Juan Islands. I do hope to get back there and do some serious birding this time.

“CO2 is Gaseous Love”

Level 10

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#1786 Sep 27, 2013
Stop exessive regulation and wasteful government spending; stop Obama from unilaterally regulating CO2 emissions against our law. A court mandated greenhouse gas controls, not the Congress.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Level 1

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1788 Sep 27, 2013
Sunny wrote:
<quoted text>Hi Rapter
That's a nice looking place ya got there looks a lot like here but are tree are little bigger and not much flat land here they call this area the foot hills of the Cascades.
Say I was posting on another site with my compute time today an I have to get back to busy work but I'll be getting back to ya got some more bird talking to do with you and NW going to get a bad storm this weekend so I'm getting things all tied down.
Good luck making it through the storm. I don't know if it's rain or snow you're getting because dial up takes too long to download the Weather Channel, so I won't even try. I worked all day, then had a long drive. I'm up at the cabin now. There are SOOOOO many stars! The weather is still mild and tomorrow will be a beautiful day for a fall color tour; whatever color there is to be had. It's still a bit early, but it's my last free weekend until the third week of October. Gotta hit the sack now, so I can be up with the sun and make the most of the day. I love wondering what each new day will bring.

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