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Local leaders urge action on immigrat...

Local leaders urge action on immigration reform

There are 57 comments on the The Beacon-News story from Oct 27, 2013, titled Local leaders urge action on immigration reform. In it, The Beacon-News reports that:

Aurora Mayor Tom Weisner is one of 21 elected heads of larger Illinois municipalities who recently wrote to the state's congressional delegation in Washington imploring members to overhaul immigration laws as a way to repair and boost the economy.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at The Beacon-News.

Pragmatist
#23 Oct 31, 2013
Just let it go, Asian Guy.

It was hyperbole and you know it.

People who are:

1) Dirt poor
2) Illiterate
3) Live on the other side of the planet

They do not have the knowledge or resources outside of organized crime to do what you suggest, especially not in the numbers you propose.

Just south of the border - you might have an arguable case, however again the volume we are talking about would certainly not go unnoticed for very long.

It's pointless to continue arguing about the "what if" in this case, since it would not happen in the exaggerated premise you put forth without starting a hot war over the issue.

And if that ends up being the case, yes, we should and will fight to defend our sovereignty.

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kelly
#24 Oct 31, 2013
Pragmatist wrote:
Just let it go, Asian Guy.
And if that ends up being the case, yes, we should and will fight to defend our sovereignty.
Not if Obama is president.
Pragmatist
#25 Oct 31, 2013
Some quick maths just for the sake of argument:

Given:
100,000,000 people to transport
About 11,600 km distance from Hong Kong to LA
Average of 430 kts. travel speed
Capacity of a Boeing 767 is 375 passengers
Ticket price of about \$1,000USD

It would cost \$1,000 x 100,000,000 =\$100bn USD - an awful lot of scratch for dirt poor illiterates to scrounge together.

At maximum capacity, it would take 100,000,000/375 = 266,667 one-way trips to transport everyone.

Let's assume that every 767 that Boeing ever made is fielded as the fleet capable of handling a task of this magnitude:~1,045 aircraft.

Total flight time one-way at the above speed and distance, including time for take-off and landing, is approximately 15 hours. Round-trip (the planes need to return for more passengers, no help from Scotty on this one)=~30 hours.

Therefore:

It will take the ENTIRE FLEET about 256 round-trips total at maximum capacity to complete the transport, with each round taking about 30 hrs. for a total of 7,680 hrs. or 320 days, assuming everything runs non-stop and there are no delays due to weather, acquisition of resources such as fuel, &etc.

Making a judgment based on how totally unrealistic the above given scenario is - just from a logistics point of view, this would never happen even if both the US and Chinese governments colluded to make it happen, which they won't.

Something of this scale, even if done using ships in lieu of planes, would be so disruptive to the usual order of business that there would be no possible way for it to slip under the radar should it occur.

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Level 5

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#26 Oct 31, 2013
Pragmatist wrote:
Some quick maths just for the sake of argument:
Given:
100,000,000 people to transport
About 11,600 km distance from Hong Kong to LA
Average of 430 kts. travel speed
Capacity of a Boeing 767 is 375 passengers
Ticket price of about \$1,000USD
It would cost \$1,000 x 100,000,000 =\$100bn USD - an awful lot of scratch for dirt poor illiterates to scrounge together.
At maximum capacity, it would take 100,000,000/375 = 266,667 one-way trips to transport everyone.
Let's assume that every 767 that Boeing ever made is fielded as the fleet capable of handling a task of this magnitude:~1,045 aircraft.
Total flight time one-way at the above speed and distance, including time for take-off and landing, is approximately 15 hours. Round-trip (the planes need to return for more passengers, no help from Scotty on this one)=~30 hours.
Therefore:
It will take the ENTIRE FLEET about 256 round-trips total at maximum capacity to complete the transport, with each round taking about 30 hrs. for a total of 7,680 hrs. or 320 days, assuming everything runs non-stop and there are no delays due to weather, acquisition of resources such as fuel, &etc.
Making a judgment based on how totally unrealistic the above given scenario is - just from a logistics point of view, this would never happen even if both the US and Chinese governments colluded to make it happen, which they won't.
Something of this scale, even if done using ships in lieu of planes, would be so disruptive to the usual order of business that there would be no possible way for it to slip under the radar should it occur.
"just for the sake of argument".. what do you suggest we do if 100+ million applicants for an amnesty appeared?

come on. answer the question.
Pragmatist
#27 Oct 31, 2013
If 100+ million people just showed up all at once, uninvited, with no catastrophic events taking place that would classify them as refugees or otherwise?

Kindly direct them back to their point(s) of origin, or not so kindly if they resist, as it would not be an immigration issue, it would be an invasion issue.

But we better keep this idea in the strictest of confidence - if Kim Jong Un found out that all it takes is a plane ticket to smuggle in foreign soldiers guised as innocent amnesty seekers we're in for troubling times ahead.

I don't think our border security and customs personnel are THAT dense or inept, I think it takes a special kind of cynicism to go that far.

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Level 5

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#28 Oct 31, 2013
Pragmatist wrote:
Just let it go, Asian Guy.
It was hyperbole and you know it.
People who are:
1) Dirt poor
2) Illiterate
3) Live on the other side of the planet
They do not have the knowledge or resources outside of organized crime to do what you suggest, especially not in the numbers you propose.
Just south of the border - you might have an arguable case, however again the volume we are talking about would certainly not go unnoticed for very long.
It's pointless to continue arguing about the "what if" in this case, since it would not happen in the exaggerated premise you put forth without starting a hot war over the issue.
And if that ends up being the case, yes, we should and will fight to defend our sovereignty.
you know little about the world. I suggest you travel more.

a billion people fly in any given day.
http://answers.ask.com/Society/Other/how_many...

100 million would be easy. especially when you consider that an amnesty if approved would probably span months if not years.

the 1986 amnesty only made the point that you must show residency before 1982.

if 100+ million people were allowed in, the usa would be in chaos. even 50+ million would be too much.

in 2007, there was a million man march of illegals in los angeles. and the authorities didn't bother to arrest anyone. they burned our flag. they pissed on us.

NO AMNESTY.

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Pragmatist
#29 Oct 31, 2013
Perhaps you should, you know, actually read the article you are citing before using it as a counter.

Your premise was that dirt poor, illiterate masses would suddenly flood the US from overseas via airplane in a very short timeframe if the US suddenly offered amnesty for illegals already here.

I've clearly demonstrated that this is hyperbole, and I still stand by this.

If there are only 1,000 flights on any given day WORLDWIDE (according to your link), this kind of move would effectively double our current logistical capacity (unless nobody else is permitted to use commercial planes for anything for the period of around a year? Seriously?)

Also, there is no source for that one little blurb in your link - but that's ok - according to the IATA ( www.iata.org ) the total number of passengers scheduled per YEAR as of the end of 2012 was 2.97bn, which would work out to about 8.1m per day, the bulk of those flights being domestic and not trans-Pacific which require a bit more time and resources, wouldn't you say?

AS I SAID IN THE VERY BEGINNING ... I mostly agree with the premise of your argument (NO AMNESTY) however when people rely on batshit crazy hyperbole to make their point they should realize that this totally ruins their credibility. There are far better ways of making a solid, arguable point. So stick to the facts - this is just friendly advice for the future.

Nobody is arguing that 100 million, or even 50 million allowed in carte blanche would not be catastrophic to the country, and as I said once the ball started rolling it would quickly escalate into a military conflict.

Yes, having a large number of illegals stage a march in the manner that they did in LA is a black eye to the government who is supposed to be upholding the rule of law. They have no excuse for allowing this to go on for so long.

However, we also need to consider why these criminals (yes, they are criminals, the term given to those who break the law) are coming here in the first place - they are here to make money, and they must be making it hand over fist for the problem to have gotten this bad.

So we do need another approach in solving this problem: Get rid of the incentive. Impose stiff penalties and even (gasp) jail time to the douchebag business owners who provide these criminals their livelihood for nothing other than selfish reasons and you'll see the problem start to clear up most ricky tick.

Protip: Just because someone doesn't agree with every idea that falls out of your mouth doesn't mean they are your adversary - we all get a little carried away sometimes and need to be pulled back to reality.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

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#30 Oct 31, 2013
Pragmatist wrote:
Perhaps you should, you know, actually read the article you are citing before using it as a counter.
Your premise was that dirt poor, illiterate masses would suddenly flood the US from overseas via airplane in a very short timeframe if the US suddenly offered amnesty for illegals already here.
I've clearly demonstrated that this is hyperbole, and I still stand by this.
If there are only 1,000 flights on any given day WORLDWIDE (according to your link), this kind of move would effectively double our current logistical capacity (unless nobody else is permitted to use commercial planes for anything for the period of around a year? Seriously?)
Also, there is no source for that one little blurb in your link - but that's ok - according to the IATA ( www.iata.org ) the total number of passengers scheduled per YEAR as of the end of 2012 was 2.97bn, which would work out to about 8.1m per day, the bulk of those flights being domestic and not trans-Pacific which require a bit more time and resources, wouldn't you say?
AS I SAID IN THE VERY BEGINNING ... I mostly agree with the premise of your argument (NO AMNESTY) however when people rely on batshit crazy hyperbole to make their point they should realize that this totally ruins their credibility. There are far better ways of making a solid, arguable point. So stick to the facts - this is just friendly advice for the future.
Nobody is arguing that 100 million, or even 50 million allowed in carte blanche would not be catastrophic to the country, and as I said once the ball started rolling it would quickly escalate into a military conflict.
Yes, having a large number of illegals stage a march in the manner that they did in LA is a black eye to the government who is supposed to be upholding the rule of law. They have no excuse for allowing this to go on for so long.
However, we also need to consider why these criminals (yes, they are criminals, the term given to those who break the law) are coming here in the first place - they are here to make money, and they must be making it hand over fist for the problem to have gotten this bad.
So we do need another approach in solving this problem: Get rid of the incentive. Impose stiff penalties and even (gasp) jail time to the douchebag business owners who provide these criminals their livelihood for nothing other than selfish reasons and you'll see the problem start to clear up most ricky tick.
Protip: Just because someone doesn't agree with every idea that falls out of your mouth doesn't mean they are your adversary - we all get a little carried away sometimes and need to be pulled back to reality.
the only thing that needs to be done to resolve us of the problem with illegals is to ENFORCE the laws already in place.

there would be no incentives if they would just enforce the law.

there would be no need for immigration reform or amnesty.

aiding and abetting is a felony crime. search and seizure permits us to question each and every person within a hundred miles of the border.

ENFORCE THE LAWS!

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Juan
#31 Oct 31, 2013
Asian Guy wrote:
I can see 100+ million coming over from mainland china alone if an amnesty were approved.
how many more from india, russia, pakistan, etc?
tell me I'm wrong.
in the past, we didn't have out of control amnesty because most didn't know anything about the usa. but with the internet so prevalent, that is not the case anymore.
again, tell me I'm wrong.
Your Wrong! What would they do just walk across the ocean and walk into the country. Your parinoid.

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Level 5

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#32 Oct 31, 2013
Juan wrote:
<quoted text>
Your Wrong! What would they do just walk across the ocean and walk into the country. Your parinoid.
the cost of a one way airplane ticket from mainland china to the usa is less than a thousand dollars.

a round trip ticket can be had for about a thousand dollars depending on the time of year you purchase it.

at that price, many people nowadays can come over on a moments notice.

if you knew that there is a country out there that would allow you to educate your children for free, provide medical for free, even grant you welfare for free.. essentially, give you a better life then the one you have in your home country, wouldn't you at least try take advantage of the opportunity?

as I see it, an amnesty in this day and age would flood the airports with people who would do so. try their luck.

think about it. you don't need any real proof to confirm your status for benefiting from the amnesty. how can the usa confirm that you were not here? all you need to do is come up with a fake id somehow. have somebody in the usa swear to your status. and the authorities couldn't substantiate anything one way or another.

coupled with the fact that the authorities would be faced with millions of applications for the amnesty.. one can imagine the timeframe for processing all the applications will take years if not decades to complete.

that would mean anybody applying for an amnesty would be able to stay in the usa for however long the application would take to be processed. that being the case, one could be on welfare, have their kids got school, take advantage of free healthcare ALL at the expense of taxpayers.

again, for as long as it takes for the applications to be processed.

imagine the chaos.

tell me I'm wrong.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#33 Oct 31, 2013
Pragmatist wrote:
If 100+ million people just showed up all at once, uninvited, with no catastrophic events taking place that would classify them as refugees or otherwise?
Kindly direct them back to their point(s) of origin, or not so kindly if they resist, as it would not be an immigration issue, it would be an invasion issue.
But we better keep this idea in the strictest of confidence - if Kim Jong Un found out that all it takes is a plane ticket to smuggle in foreign soldiers guised as innocent amnesty seekers we're in for troubling times ahead.
I don't think our border security and customs personnel are THAT dense or inept, I think it takes a special kind of cynicism to go that far.
consider this, I've read that obama has told the border patrol not to arrest people crossing the border. he doesn't want the stats to show an increase in illegal entries so that he looks like he is resolving the issue of illegals.

obama has even decreased the funding to the border patrol so that they cannot hire enough people to patrol the border.

what does that tell you?

dense? inept?

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Pragmatist
#34 Nov 1, 2013
What it tells me is that he has a very specific purpose for doing it, and it seems to be working so far.

The thing his opponents should be focused on is getting their own act together and making their focus about the POLICY, not the MAN.

I expect to see some serious debate and offerings coming from the GOP side in the run up to the next fiscal debacle, and less hyperbole.

Lead by example.

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Juan
#35 Nov 2, 2013
Asian Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
the cost of a one way airplane ticket from mainland china to the usa is less than a thousand dollars.
a round trip ticket can be had for about a thousand dollars depending on the time of year you purchase it.
at that price, many people nowadays can come over on a moments notice.
if you knew that there is a country out there that would allow you to educate your children for free, provide medical for free, even grant you welfare for free.. essentially, give you a better life then the one you have in your home country, wouldn't you at least try take advantage of the opportunity?
as I see it, an amnesty in this day and age would flood the airports with people who would do so. try their luck.
think about it. you don't need any real proof to confirm your status for benefiting from the amnesty. how can the usa confirm that you were not here? all you need to do is come up with a fake id somehow. have somebody in the usa swear to your status. and the authorities couldn't substantiate anything one way or another.
coupled with the fact that the authorities would be faced with millions of applications for the amnesty.. one can imagine the timeframe for processing all the applications will take years if not decades to complete.
that would mean anybody applying for an amnesty would be able to stay in the usa for however long the application would take to be processed. that being the case, one could be on welfare, have their kids got school, take advantage of free healthcare ALL at the expense of taxpayers.
again, for as long as it takes for the applications to be processed.
imagine the chaos.
tell me I'm wrong.
Your wrong, one needs a passport to get on the plane in China and to enter the U. S. through an airport.

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juan is a dope

Montréal, Canada

#36 Nov 2, 2013
Juan wrote:
<quoted text>
Your Wrong! What would they do just walk across the ocean and walk into the country. Your parinoid.
No "you're" wrong. They come via ship into mexihole and then stroll across the border on foot. What a dope you are la ratza boy. Hint that little red line underneath words means its misspelled. Take not and get a spell checker pendejo.

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Level 5

Since: Sep 07

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#37 Nov 2, 2013
Juan wrote:
<quoted text>
Your wrong, one needs a passport to get on the plane in China and to enter the U. S. through an airport.
getting a passport is easy if you are not a criminal. 2 weeks and some money.

getting a visa is easy too if plan accordingly. get a sponsor. go as a foreign student. attend a rotary club function. etc.

and as everybody knows... a lot of people go the illegal route. via a ship.

you should know this, juan. being illegal and all.

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pito
#38 Nov 2, 2013
We need more good family people from El Salvadore!! El Salvadore immigrants is good for the economy.

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“Work hard at work worth doing.”

Level 10

Since: Apr 11

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#39 Nov 3, 2013
Juan wrote:
<quoted text>
Your wrong, one needs a passport to get on the plane in China and to enter the U. S. through an airport.
Hmmm, your use and misuse of your and you're is vagely familiar. I think you just busted yourself.

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Juan
#40 Nov 9, 2013
teddyr4me wrote:
<quoted text>Hmmm, your use and misuse of your and you're is vagely familiar. I think you just busted yourself.
Busted myself from what ? I have nothing to be busted on, or at least nothing anyone can prove. I have all the documents I need.

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First American
#41 Nov 9, 2013
We need to secure our boarders!!! New sign on the statue of liberty NOT WELCOME for at least 10years. I never felt this way until i see drugs being smuggled, our jails filled with immigrants breaking laws, and Al Qeada. I see on the internet everyday NUKE America. We need to look out for ourselves for a change

“Work hard at work worth doing.”

Level 10

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#42 Nov 10, 2013
Juan wrote:
<quoted text>
Busted myself from what ? I have nothing to be busted on, or at least nothing anyone can prove. I have all the documents I need.
Ah, another circular repsonse. You know what I mean.

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