Australian election: Voters react

There are 38 comments on the BBC News story from Aug 4, 2013, titled Australian election: Voters react. In it, BBC News reports that:

Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd has called an election for 7 September, six weeks after defeating former PM Julia Gillard in an internal Labor party vote.

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Indian Man

Delhi, India

#23 Aug 12, 2013
sid wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting point but you have to have parties that are willing to compromise. If you take christianity and islam as an example you have one belief system that has evolved from barbarity to something better but still imperfect in 2,000 years, then you look at the other belief system which is rooted in barbarity and has remained virtually unchanged in that barbarity for 1,400 years. Christianity of the old testament has been left behind, the slaughter, rape, child selling, incest are generally not endorsed or practised by contemporary christians, however islam has not shown a similar evolution of thought.
Yes of course. That is not something new however.

I think my ideas can help us all with respect to islam. Very right that the new testament replaced old testament and helped christians. So we know that even the most rigid belief systems CAN be broken down, and reformed. Islam may be more rigid and different, but what is common is that it is being applied to humans, who are mostly remarkably similar in so many ways. We all are susceptible to ego and tribal culturalism, defending our behaviour just cause it happens to be 'ours',(prevalent around the region of our accidental birth). We all have the same qualities of fear and anger and the overwhelming primal need to survive, and its accompanying adrenaline rushes.

And our childhood vulnerabilities and dependencies on parents / societies, MAKE US ALL VERY SUCEPTIBLE TO INDOCTRINATION. So birth is like a lottery for ALL of us as to where we are born and how we'll get indoctrinated.

But we all also have the ability to be calm and rationalize on issues, and the human mind generally does compare ideas and get convinced by ideas that seem more reasonable / plausable ie more in harmony (consistent) with what we already know, thus seeming more logical. But that is a slow and gradual process, slower if prior knowledge is wrong and a result of indoctrination.

.[[So it is essential we all recognize INDEPENDENCE OF THOUGHT (mental freedom) to be the most important of all birth rights, and so also recognize that indoctrination of children (or anybody) amounts to a denial of that basic civil right. Indoctrination denies us the right to our mental independence]]

Recognizing the right of children to form their own independent opinions, ie their independence of thought is the key to preventing their indoctrination, and thus the propagation of religions from brainwashed parents further onto their children. The idea should be that children have the same right to a free mind as adults and thus the duty of all in society from parents to teachers to governments to protect that freedom. And the best way to do this is to ensure they get unfettered access to all information, pros and cons of any argument, religion or philosophy, as indoctrination is always done by providing selective info, ie one side of an argument only, during their formative years. So it should not be a question of who gets to you first;- ie who controls your childhood, controls your life. Often the victims are also 'taught' to never question, and to never look at any contrary view, even eliminate people who present such "heresy".
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#24 Aug 12, 2013
sid wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting point but you have to have parties that are willing to compromise. If you take christianity and islam as an example you have one belief system that has evolved from barbarity to something better but still imperfect in 2,000 years, then you look at the other belief system which is rooted in barbarity and has remained virtually unchanged in that barbarity for 1,400 years. Christianity of the old testament has been left behind, the slaughter, rape, child selling, incest are generally not endorsed or practised by contemporary christians, however islam has not shown a similar evolution of thought.
the honest truth is.. muslims think they are superior to all others. and the koran mandates that they subjugate anyone who gets in their way. this includes using violence.

being in australia, be warned that the koran lists only 3 scenarios where muslims should not be in muslim dominated lands.

1. when they are spying.
2. when they are fighting/converting.
3. when they are in lands where the non-muslim has submitted by paying the jizya (bribe)

here's an interesting twist that the idiots on capitol hill don't understand..

when we give these muslims countries all this money in the form of donations, the muslims don't look at the money as gifts of generosity from us, they look at it as us paying homage to their religion.

it's jizya. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

read the koran and you will know all I have said above is true.
Indian Man

Delhi, India

#25 Aug 12, 2013
contd.

So free speech is most important too.

Freedom of speech and freedom of information both together amounts to (guaranties) us our RIGHT TO FREE THOUGHT and OPINION.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#26 Aug 12, 2013
Indian Man wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes of course. That is not something new however.
I think my ideas can help us all with respect to islam. Very right that the new testament replaced old testament and helped christians. So we know that even the most rigid belief systems CAN be broken down, and reformed. Islam may be more rigid and different, but what is common is that it is being applied to humans, who are mostly remarkably similar in so many ways. We all are susceptible to ego and tribal culturalism, defending our behaviour just cause it happens to be 'ours',(prevalent around the region of our accidental birth). We all have the same qualities of fear and anger and the overwhelming primal need to survive, and its accompanying adrenaline rushes.
And our childhood vulnerabilities and dependencies on parents / societies, MAKE US ALL VERY SUCEPTIBLE TO INDOCTRINATION. So birth is like a lottery for ALL of us as to where we are born and how we'll get indoctrinated.
But we all also have the ability to be calm and rationalize on issues, and the human mind generally does compare ideas and get convinced by ideas that seem more reasonable / plausable ie more in harmony (consistent) with what we already know, thus seeming more logical. But that is a slow and gradual process, slower if prior knowledge is wrong and a result of indoctrination.
.[[So it is essential we all recognize INDEPENDENCE OF THOUGHT (mental freedom) to be the most important of all birth rights, and so also recognize that indoctrination of children (or anybody) amounts to a denial of that basic civil right. Indoctrination denies us the right to our mental independence]]
Recognizing the right of children to form their own independent opinions, ie their independence of thought is the key to preventing their indoctrination, and thus the propagation of religions from brainwashed parents further onto their children. The idea should be that children have the same right to a free mind as adults and thus the duty of all in society from parents to teachers to governments to protect that freedom. And the best way to do this is to ensure they get unfettered access to all information, pros and cons of any argument, religion or philosophy, as indoctrination is always done by providing selective info, ie one side of an argument only, during their formative years. So it should not be a question of who gets to you first;- ie who controls your childhood, controls your life. Often the victims are also 'taught' to never question, and to never look at any contrary view, even eliminate people who present such "heresy".
I know about kitman and taqiyya, muslim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
Indian Man

Delhi, India

#27 Aug 12, 2013
Asian Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
kitman...taqiyaa
Well anti indoctrination measures can insulate children and protect them from indoctrination by parents. Schools must expose children to ideas of rationalism for the sake of fair balance against religious indoctrination. IT IS A MUST that children from early age be made aware of THE RIGHT OF INDEPENDENT THINKING as a basic human right (which they need to demand and defend); to strengthen young minds against indoctrination attempts by others who are either themselves indoctrinated or just clever controllers of people.

The Universal recognition of RIGHT TO INDEPENDENT THOUGHT and it constituent rights:- free speech and right to unrestricted information, can effectively act as an intervention in the way organized religion propagates, by breaking the chain of indoctrination from adults to children.

If Australia (or any country) enacts such anti indoctrination laws (as a follow thru of recognizing freedom to think and form opinions independently as a basic human right), and takes anti brainwashing measures in schools, then lying techniques - kitman, taqiyaa etc will become immediately ineffective, and islam or Christianity budduism hindu relegion et all will not go beyond a few more generations. The problem of course may be the orthodox christian convervative might object.

Thanks for the link, learned about kitman. Also the further link to the book the 'captive mind'.
Indian Man

Delhi, India

#28 Aug 12, 2013
Asian Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
here's an interesting twist that the idiots on capitol hill don't understand..
when we give these muslims countries all this money in the form of donations, the muslims don't look at the money as gifts of generosity from us, they look at it as us paying homage....
Whatever they (islamists) think, I think the reasons why USA gives them funds is worth getting into.

They USA and Uk and their minions have shown a pattern of poking and provoking and attacking and forcing into a corner so defense is the only thing on the muslim's mind. This has the calculated effect of pushing any society into a hardline conservative stance, that war, fear and defence always brings with it.

That effectively silences the moderates and laws tend to be regressive and hardline like blasphemy etc. USA often funds both sides, like in Pakistan they fund the military directly, while they fund islamists and terror camps thru SAUDI ARABIA. So the military or civilian govt will always be dependent on USA cause of the fear of the islamist boogie man. In egypt too they supported the military for long cause they had a favourable deal with them. When people revolted, USA made a deal with Morsi and Muslim Brotherhood, knowing well he was islamist and would subvert and destroy democracy! So now even if military comes in, it will be dependent on USA.

In the end, the hawks in Washinton are incapable of having any great visionary policy, all they want is oil and US interests safe, so their thinking is short term, WHICH IS CONTROL BY CHAOS AND DIVISION.

The name of the game is CREATING LEVERAGE.

The Middle east just has islam, a perfect weakness the locals have, the religion of the slaves, that the imperialists can use. South America has a climate suitable for drugs, and so the drug mafia, again well funded by the imperialists in US who tacidly allow them to carry on the drugs trade. The govts. thus keep depending on US to keep fighting the drugs mafia, and US kept funding the the govts. in return for oil.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#29 Aug 12, 2013
Indian Man wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatever they (islamists) think, I think the reasons why USA gives them funds is worth getting into.
They USA and Uk and their minions have shown a pattern of poking and provoking and attacking and forcing into a corner so defense is the only thing on the muslim's mind. This has the calculated effect of pushing any society into a hardline conservative stance, that war, fear and defence always brings with it.
That effectively silences the moderates and laws tend to be regressive and hardline like blasphemy etc. USA often funds both sides, like in Pakistan they fund the military directly, while they fund islamists and terror camps thru SAUDI ARABIA. So the military or civilian govt will always be dependent on USA cause of the fear of the islamist boogie man. In egypt too they supported the military for long cause they had a favourable deal with them. When people revolted, USA made a deal with Morsi and Muslim Brotherhood, knowing well he was islamist and would subvert and destroy democracy! So now even if military comes in, it will be dependent on USA.
In the end, the hawks in Washinton are incapable of having any great visionary policy, all they want is oil and US interests safe, so their thinking is short term, WHICH IS CONTROL BY CHAOS AND DIVISION.
The name of the game is CREATING LEVERAGE.
The Middle east just has islam, a perfect weakness the locals have, the religion of the slaves, that the imperialists can use. South America has a climate suitable for drugs, and so the drug mafia, again well funded by the imperialists in US who tacidly allow them to carry on the drugs trade. The govts. thus keep depending on US to keep fighting the drugs mafia, and US kept funding the the govts. in return for oil.
listen muslim.

let me spell it out for you. if it was about the oil, we could have taken it from you with hardly any effort at all a long time ago.

and the reason why I can say that with absolute certainty is - because we invented the atom bomb in 1945.

we were the only ones with the atom bomb from 1945 to 1949. even an idiot like you can realize that what I'm saying is true.

EVEN now, if we really wanted to take the oil, who is there to stop us? YOU? frankly, we can just make a deal with all the non-muslim countries to share the booty. and cut you muslim out totally.

I would like that scenario very much.

on your claim that there are moderate and extreme elements in islam, I don't see it that way.

what I see are - soldiers and civilians. soldiers do the fighting. civilians do the work. much like soldiers ants and worker ants. do the worker ants support the soldier ants totally?

sure. just like I support my troops overseas. can I be considered moderate or extremist? not really.

the category of moderate and extremist where muslims are concerned was created by some stupid ass liberals on capitol hill to be politically correct. another word for them is IDIOTS.
sid

Brisbane, Australia

#30 Aug 12, 2013
Indian Man wrote:
<quoted text>
Well anti indoctrination measures can insulate children and protect them from indoctrination by parents. Schools must expose children to ideas of rationalism for the sake of fair balance against religious indoctrination. IT IS A MUST that children from early age be made aware of THE RIGHT OF INDEPENDENT THINKING as a basic human right (which they need to demand and defend); to strengthen young minds against indoctrination attempts by others who are either themselves indoctrinated or just clever controllers of people.
The Universal recognition of RIGHT TO INDEPENDENT THOUGHT and it constituent rights:- free speech and right to unrestricted information, can effectively act as an intervention in the way organized religion propagates, by breaking the chain of indoctrination from adults to children.
If Australia (or any country) enacts such anti indoctrination laws (as a follow thru of recognizing freedom to think and form opinions independently as a basic human right), and takes anti brainwashing measures in schools, then lying techniques - kitman, taqiyaa etc will become immediately ineffective, and islam or Christianity budduism hindu relegion et all will not go beyond a few more generations. The problem of course may be the orthodox christian convervative might object.
Thanks for the link, learned about kitman. Also the further link to the book the 'captive mind'.
Excellent points which I believe address the root of the problem, however there are vested interests that actively oppose what you propose. In australia we have islamic, catholic, church of england, jewish and other exclusively denominational schools who's purpose is to perpetuate the indoctrination of children, therefore more division, therefore more hatred.
I doubt if any australian government would try to disband religious schools, they have become so entrenched in australia that the government even funds them better than public schools, so no help from that angle.
Religion has been a stumbling block for mankind since history has been recorded, the greatest hope is for mankind to evolve beyond the mental prison that religion creates. Evolution and a revolution of human thought.
Indian Man

Delhi, India

#31 Aug 12, 2013
@asian guy
Well, moderates and hardliners exists in all ideologies. Simply because religions are mostly not written in formal languages, and a lot of ambiguities and vagueness do exist. They are thus open to multiple interpretations, hence you get variations of positions among its followers, which only increase with time. All religions are evidence of this.

And- you keep calling me a muslim, are you out of your mind?
Indian Man

New Delhi, India

#32 Aug 12, 2013
sid wrote:
<quoted text>
Excellent points which I believe address the root of the problem, however there are vested interests that actively oppose what you propose. In australia we have islamic, catholic, church of england, jewish and other exclusively denominational schools who's purpose is to perpetuate the indoctrination of children, therefore more division, therefore more hatred.
I doubt if any australian government would try to disband religious schools, they have become so entrenched in australia that the government even funds them better than public schools, so no help from that angle.
Religion has been a stumbling block for mankind since history has been recorded, the greatest hope is for mankind to evolve beyond the mental prison that religion creates. Evolution and a revolution of human thought.
Yes we need to evolve into a post religious world, sooner the better.

It is always going to be an uphill task, but I am sure concerted cool headed efforts to spread good logic, and sincere information will surely be rewarded. Australia is very promising in this regard, as it has good internet penetration, and allows people like you and me to cut accross to the people directly. I have this theory that if you present a good sound idea to the people, it has the power to geadually spread and prevail over and above all the lies and falsehoods.

So I am not a pessimist by far. Just need patience and perseverance.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#33 Aug 13, 2013
Indian Man wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes we need to evolve into a post religious world, sooner the better.
It is always going to be an uphill task, but I am sure concerted cool headed efforts to spread good logic, and sincere information will surely be rewarded. Australia is very promising in this regard, as it has good internet penetration, and allows people like you and me to cut accross to the people directly. I have this theory that if you present a good sound idea to the people, it has the power to geadually spread and prevail over and above all the lies and falsehoods.
So I am not a pessimist by far. Just need patience and perseverance.
and of course, you think islam is that post religious world. right?

in other words, you expect australia to fall in line and accept islam into their lives because it just makes sense. right?
Indian Man

New Delhi, India

#34 Aug 13, 2013
Asian Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
and of course, you think islam is that post religious world. right?
in other words, you expect australia to fall in line and accept islam into their lives because it just makes sense. right?
Wrong.

I'll let you figure this one out.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#35 Aug 13, 2013
Indian Man wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong.
I'll let you figure this one out.
I already figured it out. YOU are crazy.

the only way you can change everything into a post religious world within a lifetime is to commit genocide.

the communists attempted that in the last century and failed miserably. the muslims are now on that same path to force all to submit to islam.

when you have 6+ billion in the world, there is no way to re-educate everybody to a post-religious state EXCEPT by killing off all those who resist. clean slate.

"you will be absorbed".
Indian Man

New Delhi, India

#36 Aug 13, 2013
Asian Guy wrote:
<quoted text>
I already figured it out. YOU are crazy.
the only way you can change everything into a post religious world within a lifetime is to commit genocide.
the communists attempted that in the last century and failed miserably. the muslims are now on that same path to force all to submit to islam.
when you have 6+ billion in the world, there is no way to re-educate everybody to a post-religious state EXCEPT by killing off all those who resist. clean slate.
"you will be absorbed".
How many did Newton have to kill to convince all the people on earth about the laws of motion? Did Newton have a huge "army of gravitation" that he used to force different peoples and cultures to 'submit' to his ideas on gravitation or motion or the binomial theorem?(like Mohammad needed his army of Islam to force people to submit)

NO? Does that tell you something about the human mind?

Of course it will take it own time, but like it or not, it will happen. We are heading into a post religious world. Only the wrong or the hurried have needed armies and coercion, like the communists or islamists. And inspite of all their efforts, look where communism is now.

Islam will soon get the boot too, I asure you, as soon as humans realize "INDEPENDENCE OF THOUGHT" or call it autonomy of thought or freedom of mind... as the most vital human right, and subsequently enact anti indoctrination laws based on that. Islam will disappear from all lands that impliment such laws. When children are exposed to other contrary ideas than religion, like rationalism, and scientific approach to CIVICS (subject of good and bad), then regressive god based religions would become harder and harder to sell. And soon they will have to change or evolve to compete for space and acceptance in every childs free mind. The more rigid ones will be the first to die!

Rational study and realization of CIVICS (laws of society that determine whats good and whats bad) makes god and religion redundant.
Level 5

Since: Sep 07

Location hidden

#37 Aug 13, 2013
Indian Man wrote:
<quoted text>
How many did Newton have to kill to convince all the people on earth about the laws of motion? Did Newton have a huge "army of gravitation" that he used to force different peoples and cultures to 'submit' to his ideas on gravitation or motion or the binomial theorem?(like Mohammad needed his army of Islam to force people to submit)
NO? Does that tell you something about the human mind?
Of course it will take it own time, but like it or not, it will happen. We are heading into a post religious world. Only the wrong or the hurried have needed armies and coercion, like the communists or islamists. And inspite of all their efforts, look where communism is now.
Islam will soon get the boot too, I asure you, as soon as humans realize "INDEPENDENCE OF THOUGHT" or call it autonomy of thought or freedom of mind... as the most vital human right, and subsequently enact anti indoctrination laws based on that. Islam will disappear from all lands that impliment such laws. When children are exposed to other contrary ideas than religion, like rationalism, and scientific approach to CIVICS (subject of good and bad), then regressive god based religions would become harder and harder to sell. And soon they will have to change or evolve to compete for space and acceptance in every childs free mind. The more rigid ones will be the first to die!
Rational study and realization of CIVICS (laws of society that determine whats good and whats bad) makes god and religion redundant.
you live in a fantasy world.
sydney

Sydney, Australia

#38 Sep 25, 2013
yes
spud

Dallas, PA

#39 Sep 26, 2013
It seems like the global elitists are being pretty successful pushing their NWO garbage down there. I guess the US isn't the only country that is dominated by a liberal media.
drop the hyphen

Phoenix, AZ

#40 Sep 26, 2013
Flynn_2615 wrote:
<quoted text>
I was in London a few years back and there's a great game to play, it's called spot the White Anglo Saxon.
Same in New York, there's more Blacks in the USA than Africa.
If they want to be considered "african" there's plenty of room and opportunity for them there...

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