English vineyards further north than ...

English vineyards further north than MWP?

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Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#1 Feb 10, 2009
Here's a typical claim from a global warming sceptic:

[In the medieval warm period in England] "They could... grow wine grapes, which I don't think they can yet."

Of course the reality is that wine grapes have been grown in England since 1950, and the wine industry has been thriving for the last couple of decades.

But exactly how does the geographical extent of vineyards today compare to that in the Middle ages?
Did you know that there are 163 vineyards in England and Wales? Those 163 are members of the English Wine Producers group who claim to represent over three-quarters of England's total wine production, so the 'actual' number is a few more.

The EWP has released a new version of it UK Wine Map - available for free from vineyards, key tourist offices and (soon) from the EWP website.
http://www.spittoon.biz/new_map_of_english_an...

The map shown is for the English Midlands. Compare it to this map of English vineyards recorded between 1000-1300AD.

http://cce.890m.com/lamb.pdf

For those unfamiliar with the English Midlands:

Latitude 52.4167 - Longitude -1.5500

The significance of Lamb's map?

Keep watching this space!
Earthling

Spain

#2 Feb 10, 2009
"Recent archaeological investigations in Northamptonshire have uncovered evidence to suggest that vineyards were established on a commercial scale during the Roman occupation. Initial surveys at a 35-hectare Romano-British site at Wollaston in the Nene Valley (near Wellingborough), has revealed deposits of grape vine pollen dating from this time"
http://englishwineproducers.com/history.htm

Those unfamiliar with the English Midlands may note that Wollaston, Northamptonshire is situated there.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#3 Feb 10, 2009
Earthling wrote:
"Recent archaeological investigations in Northamptonshire have uncovered evidence to suggest that vineyards were established on a commercial scale during the Roman occupation. Initial surveys at a 35-hectare Romano-British site at Wollaston in the Nene Valley (near Wellingborough), has revealed deposits of grape vine pollen dating from this time"
http://englishwineproducers.com/history.htm
Those unfamiliar with the English Midlands may note that Wollaston, Northamptonshire is situated there.
I count at least seven vineyards in modern Northamptonshire in the new vineyard map, which suggests that England is now at least as warm as in the Roman period.

There are certainly isolated vineyards in the north of England in Lamb's map, but virtually none in the grid square 52/2 where the modern map shows many vineyards.
Earthling

Spain

#4 Feb 10, 2009
Truth of the matter is probably that few people in the north of England are interested in wine making as a business, even if it was viable.
Plus the fact that Northerners are more into beer than wine. Areas of the southern counties are more likely to be cultivated under vine.
Norfolk has produced wine for many years, to my knowledge wine grapes were being grown there in the 60s.
Kent, Sussex and Surrey have almost ideal conditions.

Tax is the UK's biggest problem when it comes to any alcohol, it's horrendous, I can buy 5 litres of wine here in Spain, for the price of a glass of wine in a UK pub.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#5 Feb 10, 2009
What is the significance of Lamb's map of English vineyards recorded between 1000-1300AD?

Lamb used this map in part to reconstruct historical temperatures, using successful grape cultivation as a botanical indicator of climate and temperature, extrapolating from temperatures measures at the northern limit of commercial vineyards at the time. Hence, if there was a wine vineyard in place X historical England, then the temperature there must have been at least as warm as Y in modern Germany, where grapes were still grown.

He pointed out how temperatures in modern England fell short of those required for grape cultivation:

"The best of the former English vine districts appear to fall [far] short of the lowest values required.(It is true that individual enthusiasm has succeeded in operating isolated vineyards in specially favourable sites in the south of England at one time or another in most centuries since the Middle Ages, but these have never continued long after the retirement or death of the enthusiast."

He produced a graph of his estimates of historical temperatures in England combined with modern direct measurements.

http://cce.890m.com/lamb.pdf

His graph was quite possibly the source of the IPCC graph, now still used iconically by global warming sceptics as proof that the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was warmer than the present.

http://www.climateaudit.org/...

Lamb produced his graphs in 1965. The IPCC appears to have used it in 1990 because nobody else had attempted to reconstruct historical temperatures.

At the time Lamb produced his graphs, English wine may have been produced by enthusiasts in the south, and temperatures almost certainly were below those in the MWP. But now good English wine is being produced commercially apparently even further north in the Midlands than in Lamb's map, yet the 1990 temperature map still appears in sceptic web sites and videos as proof that the MWP was warmer than the present.

In the 40 years since Lamb produced his graph, several historical reconstructions of temperature have been produced which seem to confirm that, whilst the MWP may have been warmer than Lamb's time of writing, it was almost certainly not warmer than the present.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1000_Year_T...

The 1990 IPCC graph based (apparently) on Lamb's work in 1965 remains an icon for sceptics, but is it a broken icon?

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#6 Feb 11, 2009
I'm going to start a collection of quotes. Here's No.1:
baldy wrote:
Based on the known historical and archeological [sic] record, it was warm enough prior 1400 to grow grapes in England, which was a net exporter of wine. Explain how, with all the global warming going on, it's not even close to warm enough now to do the same.
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/global-warmin...
Earthling

Spain

#7 Feb 12, 2009
We should all be happy that we're living in a warm period, the alternative doesn't bear thinking about.

I see a distant future, where many poor people will be unable to survive the freezing temperatures that a 'cool' period will bring.
The only consolation, is that Earth's population of humans will decrease, as will the populations of other animals.

Polar bears will probably move further south as the Arctic grows and the ice thickens.

Grape vines may survive for a while in equatorial regions.
litesong

Sarver, PA

#8 Feb 12, 2009
Fair Game wrote:
What is the significance of Lamb's map of English vineyards recorded between 1000-1300AD?
Lamb used this map in part to reconstruct historical temperatures, using successful grape cultivation as a botanical indicator of climate and temperature, extrapolating from temperatures measures at the northern limit of commercial vineyards at the time. Hence, if there was a wine vineyard in place X historical England, then the temperature there must have been at least as warm as Y in modern Germany, where grapes were still grown.
He pointed out how temperatures in modern England fell short of those required for grape cultivation:
"The best of the former English vine districts appear to fall [far] short of the lowest values required.(It is true that individual enthusiasm has succeeded in operating isolated vineyards in specially favourable sites in the south of England at one time or another in most centuries since the Middle Ages, but these have never continued long after the retirement or death of the enthusiast."
He produced a graph of his estimates of historical temperatures in England combined with modern direct measurements.
http://cce.890m.com/lamb.pdf
His graph was quite possibly the source of the IPCC graph, now still used iconically by global warming sceptics as proof that the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) was warmer than the present.
http://www.climateaudit.org/...
Lamb produced his graphs in 1965. The IPCC appears to have used it in 1990 because nobody else had attempted to reconstruct historical temperatures.
At the time Lamb produced his graphs, English wine may have been produced by enthusiasts in the south, and temperatures almost certainly were below those in the MWP. But now good English wine is being produced commercially apparently even further north in the Midlands than in Lamb's map, yet the 1990 temperature map still appears in sceptic web sites and videos as proof that the MWP was warmer than the present.
In the 40 years since Lamb produced his graph, several historical reconstructions of temperature have been produced which seem to confirm that, whilst the MWP may have been warmer than Lamb's time of writing, it was almost certainly not warmer than the present.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1000_Year_T...
The 1990 IPCC graph based (apparently) on Lamb's work in 1965 remains an icon for sceptics, but is it a broken icon?
My wife loves Spanish wines. I wonder if she would like English wines? I'll have to ask her. In northern Washington here (latitude 3 degrees south of London), the town next to us has a national award winning wine that sells for $200 per bottle.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#9 Feb 12, 2009
The cheapest Turkish wine is known as "dog killer". Funnily enough, expensive Turkish wine doesn't taste much better- too hot here really for good wine grape varieties.
litesong

Sarver, PA

#10 Feb 12, 2009
Fair Game wrote:
The cheapest Turkish wine is known as "dog killer". Funnily enough, expensive Turkish wine doesn't taste much better- too hot here really for good wine grape varieties.
I wonder if good shading might help fruits & vegetables in Turkey....like the shading provided by really well designed solar panels!

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#11 Feb 13, 2009
Quote No.2:
Captain A wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you explain why Greenland and England were so much warmer 800 years ago? Why did the vikings under Eric the Red find Greenland with so little Ice that large populations of people and animals were able to colonize the Island for many centuries. In England Wine grapes were able to be grown in areas that are 300 miles further north than are able to grow wine Grapes today. The Facts show that Global warming has occurred before and it appears to me to be a cyclical process. If this is true and the facts show that western Europe thrived during this period of warmth. We might benefit because of global warming. Europe was much better off in the time around 1000 ad than they were in the 1400s when it was much cooler. So I tend to think that global warming is a cycle and that people benefit when it is warmer...based on the documented history of Europe from 1000 till present.
http://www.topix.com/news/global-warming/2008...

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#12 Feb 13, 2009
Correction to post No.1:

Coventry- Latitude 52.4167 - Longitude -1.5500

This is the town shown in the modern wine map.
Northie

Spokane, WA

#13 Feb 13, 2009
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
My wife loves Spanish wines. I wonder if she would like English wines? I'll have to ask her. In northern Washington here (latitude 3 degrees south of London), the town next to us has a national award winning wine that sells for $200 per bottle.
Been to Walla Walla lately?$200 per bottle seems to be the going price for house red there. Now Lake Chelan is decent pinot noir country, amazing but true. And Canadian merlot is no longer a joke thanks to the grapes they're growing around Penticton.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#14 Feb 16, 2009
Quote No.3:
Glasnos wrote:
If you take the time, and read many sources you will see that Greenland was completely icebound, not as the Vikings found it.... It was just the early 1800s, when the Thames was still freezing solid ... and the english held faires on the ice.... Thank goodness the Thames as well as northern european harbors and New York Harbor now remain ice free. Hooray for global warming ... we do not want another repeat of the little ice age. Fact is, we are still not as warm as the mideival warm period, when england supported vineyards... must have been all of those Roman SUVs that did it ... right? You people that hang on to AGW are beginning to sound like the tin foil types that believe Bush destroyed the Twin Towers.

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#15 Jan 7, 2010
Glasnos wrote:
Grapes were grown in England, and competed with French vineyards ... and AGW "science" disputes it?
http://www.topix.com/news/global-warming/2009...
dont drink the koolaid

Eden Prairie, MN

#16 Jan 7, 2010
Vineyards in the Northern Latitudes may not be as relevant as one might think.

How likely is it that wine grapes can be cultivated at inland locations on the 45th parallel where temps can drop to below -20C?
Mr Giblets

Kidderminster, UK

#17 Jan 8, 2010
Fair Game wrote:
Here's a typical claim from a global warming sceptic:
[In the medieval warm period in England] "They could... grow wine grapes, which I don't think they can yet."
Of course the reality is that wine grapes have been grown in England since 1950, and the wine industry has been thriving for the last couple of decades.
But exactly how does the geographical extent of vineyards today compare to that in the Middle ages?
<quoted text>
http://www.spittoon.biz/new_map_of_english_an...
The map shown is for the English Midlands. Compare it to this map of English vineyards recorded between 1000-1300AD.
http://cce.890m.com/lamb.pdf
For those unfamiliar with the English Midlands:
Latitude 52.4167 - Longitude -1.5500
The significance of Lamb's map?
Keep watching this space!
why wasn't the UK flooded during this period, then? and the vineyards were as far north as Hadrian's wall, during BOTH periods.

In some areas the sea has RECEDED in the last few centuries. In others, areas are now below the sea. This is caused by the land moving, not the climate. best to get all the facts .

Since: Apr 08

"the green troll"

#18 Jun 15, 2010
IronRanger wrote:
<quoted text>
Tell that to history and the Dinosaur Age when the CO2 and temperature levels were many times higher than today. Tell that to the Vikings who farmed Greenland. Tell that to England when they were known for their wine and vineyards.
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/global-warmin...

“I Luv Carbon Dioxide”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#19 Jun 16, 2010
Global warming is extending wine growing regions? More wine because of global warming is a good thing, if we break temperature records, we can have big parties with champagne and beer. We'll get a big gold trophy, too.

More wine, better weather, what's not to love about global warming?

Since: Apr 10

Milwaukee, WI USA

#20 Jun 16, 2010
Brian_G wrote:
...
More wine because of global warming is a good thing...
More wine, better weather, what's not to love about global warming?
B I N G O !

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