Most ready for 'green sacrifices'

[WaltBennett]

engineer wrote:

our notion of industry is outdated, I suspect because you do not work in industry. You sound like a lwayer to me.

Wrong. However, I feel fairly certain that you DO work for "industry", and that you DON'T get your hands dirty.

Well, maybe metaphorically...

[WaltBennett]

And to whatever extent such a view of industry is "out-moded", it's not because industry suddenly grew a conscience.

It is because they were held to account.

[engineer]

Walt, you must be completely oblivious. I love coal. It is the greatest thing humanity has ever found. It has given us everything we have today. So, yes believe it or not, I have NO PROBLEM with a coal plant in my backyard. I lived next (literally) to small one for many years.

You still havn't answered my question - have you ever been to a mine and a power plant?

And, I accept your thanks. We do provide everything you use, from electricity to computers to cell phones, highways, cars, houses, containers, everything. And we do it in a clean and sustainable manner. Nobody has ever thanked me before, I appreciate it.

[The Hornet]

hard to do something about something that doesnt exist.

[engineer]

Walt, my hands are beyond dirty everyday; I am preparing to go underground this afternoon, as I do everyday. I do not work in a coal mine, it is precious metals, and I pull 5, 10-12 hour shifts per week.

[WaltBennett]

engineer wrote:

We do provide everything you use, from electricity to computers to cell phones, highways, cars, houses, containers, everything. And we do it in a clean and sustainable manner. Nobody has ever thanked me before, I appreciate it.

Try not to take too much credit for inventing the modern world.

I am sure that if you and I sat over a couple of beers, we would agree that development is a good thing and trashing the environment is a bad thing, and that responsible companies know this and behave accordingly.

My point was, and we would probably agree on this, many times industry turns a blind eye to consequences, or knowingly contaminates in the hope they won't get caught.

Very often it is environmentalists who care enough to learn about these practices. They are the leading edge of change in this area, much of the time.

I know that this creates an un-level playing field when competing against companies in countries where the standards are more lax. Oh well.

And I know that there can be such a thing as going too far in favoring the environment over development. That is a far tougher thing to resolve, because people are deeply invested in their positions.

Honorable people must simply work them out on a case by case basis.

Never been to a coal plant. Read an article last year about contamination from coal plants in suburban back yards. They say these things are "clean" now, but the air samples say otherwise.

[WaltBennett]

The Hornet wrote:

hard to do something about something that doesnt exist.

Mea culpa.

[WaltBennett]

engineer wrote:

Walt, my hands are beyond dirty everyday; I am preparing to go underground this afternoon, as I do everyday. I do not work in a coal mine, it is precious metals, and I pull 5, 10-12 hour shifts per week.

(Sorry, linked to the wrong post the first time):

mea culpa.

[engineer]

It wouldn't take a few beers man, development is for the most part good, and trashing the enviro bad. We agree on that.

I got into mining because when I was a little kid I took a trip to CO and saw the impacts of mining. Instead of whining, I got an education and try to change the industry from the inside. BTW mining engineers today take many courses on enviro protection. It is now the norm.

I can also agree that sometimes unscrupulous people in industry do knowingly violate enviro law. Sad, but true.

And sometimes both groups go too far in their one side. Compromise is important, but honestly, I see industry more willing to compromise than enviros most of the time.

If you ever find your way to CO, I can get you into a small coal power plant. It is amazing when you can see into the combustion chamber, walk up the scrubbers, see the fly ash being captured. I can take you into some of the most modern underground coal mines in the world. Coal mining with longwalls is amazing, huge cutters working continuously to supply America with power. We could walk down the rail roads within a mile of my home where most of the coal is transported.

I can take you from mining, to transport, to final combustion; seeing it live may give you a different perspective. What we can do today is truly amazing, and seeing it all is a powerful experience in what mankind has accomplished.

[WaltBennett]

I am sure that you are right; I would be awed. I am always awed by what man can do.(One trip up a NYC skyscraper will do it, too.)

But I am concerned about air quality. It is not as good as it is supposed to be. Living too close to a coal-fired plant has been known to be hazardous to health.

Perhaps the issue is old versus new technology? Is it possible that there are a lot of older plants which are not doing enough to scrub their emissions?

I would have to believe that these reports are true, since they tend to be based on sampling the ambient air and tracing the contaminants to nearby plants.

In fact, I'm sure you know that studies indicate that we would be seeing double the warming we've seen so far if emissions were not so dirty. Emissions don't hang around all that long because they are much heavier than air, so that means that a constant resupply is going on.

Also, are China and India obeying U.S.-level standards?

Do you happen to know any of the above?

And by the way, it sounds like you are on the right side of environmentalism. That was not clear from your earlier comments.

Let's agree that there are nuts of all sorts.

[engineer]

Oh, there are nuts of all sorts, that is for sure.

Like I said previously, I lived literally next to a coal plant for four years, and didn't notice anything, but then again I smoke and work underground, so...air quality is a relative term to me.

There are quite a few older plants that are "granfathered" into not needing up to date scrubbers. This should be changed, and should be the focus of the enviro groups out there. New plants capture a large proportion of most metals, fly ash, and Hg.

China is not obeying US standards, not even close.

[WaltBennett]

And therein lies a pretty big problem.

As for grandfathering and so forth, I do know that Clinton passed tough regs and GW either ignored them, repealed them or redefined them.

Seems the operators didn't really want to spend the money if they didn't HAVE to.

And the enviros are all over this.

When discussing these people, I (figuratively) keep one hand on my wallet and one hand on my oxygen mask.

I agree that much has changed. What has not changed is the conscience of industrialists.

They still have none.

[mememine69]

WaltBennett wrote:

And therein lies a pretty big problem.
As for grandfathering and so forth, I do know that Clinton passed tough regs and GW either ignored them, repealed them or redefined them.
Seems the operators didn't really want to spend the money if they didn't HAVE to.
And the enviros are all over this.
When discussing these people, I (figuratively) keep one hand on my wallet and one hand on my oxygen mask.
I agree that much has changed. What has not changed is the conscience of industrialists.
They still have none.

Feel better demonizing the evil industrialists comrade?

[Mr Giblets]

Chris Jury wrote:

Most people in most countries (including this one) are far more willing to fix the problems that lead to climate change (and pay the bills to do it) than many might have guessed.
Good luck global warming nay-sayers. You had a good run, but thine time is done.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7075759.s...

Oh No, they're not. wishful thinking from the loony fringe of Al Goreism.

[WaltBennett]

Mr Giblets wrote:

<quoted text>Oh No, they're not. wishful thinking from the loony fringe of Al Goreism.

I agree with Giblets.

I also say that before Gore and Congress ask us for the first sacrifice, lead by example. Reduce their actual carbon footprint, and don't just use your wealth to buy 'offsets' from companies you own a piece of.

Actually sacrifice, or don't dare to tell us to.

[The Hornet]

i wonder the left wing hypocrites are for tough regs on abortion ive heard this tough regs crap to the point i am sick