Obama takes on power plant emissions ...

Obama takes on power plant emissions as part of climate plan

There are 1518 comments on the Reuters story from Jun 25, 2013, titled Obama takes on power plant emissions as part of climate plan. In it, Reuters reports that:

President Barack Obama will attempt to kick-start a global climate agenda on Tuesday with proposals including a plan to limit carbon emissions from existing U.S. power plants that is sure to face opposition from the coal industry, many business groups and Republican lawmakers.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Reuters.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1109 Aug 23, 2013
-Dont Panic- wrote:
Outdoor cats kill between 1.4 billion and 3.7 billion birds a year, study says
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-01-31...
That is because irresponible pet owners allow it.

Anyone can legally shoot a dog that's chasing a deer.

According to an outdated 1940's law, I can't even walk within an eighth of a mile of an eagles nest without paying a $5000 fine if caught any closer.

I, and you, can go to prison, or be fined, if we pick up a bird feather if it's from a native, migratory bird. They are strictly protected by federal law. We cannot harm, handle, remove them, any parts, or their nests, etc, etc...

So why are cats and their owners who allow it given a pass to kill these protected birds? Oil companies have to pay fines for each individual bird killed. Why don't cat owners have to pay similar fines?

These deaths are inexcusable and should not be happening, period.

Some say "It's natural for a cat to kill a bird." It's also "natural" for a dog to chase a deer. So why the difference in standards? Why can't I kill a cat if it's stalking a bird?

One fact people overlook: cats are a non-native species. They do not occur here "naturally."

Other non-native species such as English House Sparrows and European Starlings are NOT protected by law. There is open season on them because they interfere with our native ecosystems by taking over nesting sites and sometimes killing less aggressive native birds. The government even used to PAY people to kill them.

They are trying to readicate non-native phragmites, Purple Loosestrife and Garlic Mustard in some areas because they are taking over where there should be cattails or other native plants.

In Yellowstone it is illegal to NOT kill a Lake Trout if you catch one. It is non-native.

In MI it is illegal to move firewood from one county to another because of the spread of the non-native Emerald Ash Borer. The insects are killing all of the ash trees here.

Again, cats are a non-native species, brought here by man from another continent, and as you correctly state, they kill billions of birds each year, many of those birds protected by law. Talk about a disruption of native ecosystems and severly declining native bird species! The felines also reproduce unchecked. Then bleeding-heart cat lovers take the unwanted cats to natural areas- where we still have a few remaining native birds- and release them, only so they can kill those birds that are still hanging on.

Then there are people, like Caveman here, who say "Puhleeze" when you suggest cats should NOT be roaming loose.

And he thinks >I< need to be educated!

Since: Dec 12

Location hidden

#1110 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
That is because irresponible pet owners allow it.
Anyone can legally shoot a dog that's chasing a deer.
According to an outdated 1940's law, I can't even walk within an eighth of a mile of an eagles nest without paying a $5000 fine if caught any closer.
I, and you, can go to prison, or be fined, if we pick up a bird feather if it's from a native, migratory bird. They are strictly protected by federal law. We cannot harm, handle, remove them, any parts, or their nests, etc, etc...
So why are cats and their owners who allow it given a pass to kill these protected birds? Oil companies have to pay fines for each individual bird killed. Why don't cat owners have to pay similar fines?
These deaths are inexcusable and should not be happening, period.
Some say "It's natural for a cat to kill a bird." It's also "natural" for a dog to chase a deer. So why the difference in standards? Why can't I kill a cat if it's stalking a bird?
One fact people overlook: cats are a non-native species. They do not occur here "naturally."
Other non-native species such as English House Sparrows and European Starlings are NOT protected by law. There is open season on them because they interfere with our native ecosystems by taking over nesting sites and sometimes killing less aggressive native birds. The government even used to PAY people to kill them.
They are trying to readicate non-native phragmites, Purple Loosestrife and Garlic Mustard in some areas because they are taking over where there should be cattails or other native plants.
In Yellowstone it is illegal to NOT kill a Lake Trout if you catch one. It is non-native.
In MI it is illegal to move firewood from one county to another because of the spread of the non-native Emerald Ash Borer. The insects are killing all of the ash trees here.
Again, cats are a non-native species, brought here by man from another continent, and as you correctly state, they kill billions of birds each year, many of those birds protected by law. Talk about a disruption of native ecosystems and severly declining native bird species! The felines also reproduce unchecked. Then bleeding-heart cat lovers take the unwanted cats to natural areas- where we still have a few remaining native birds- and release them, only so they can kill those birds that are still hanging on.
Then there are people, like Caveman here, who say "Puhleeze" when you suggest cats should NOT be roaming loose.
And he thinks >I< need to be educated!
A neighbor of mine moved into this neighborhood about five years ago. Before she arrived there were no cats to be found in this neighborhood. In the time since she arrived the feral cat population has grown to become a nuisance! That fat pig brings them here and releases them to breed. To make things worse, a few weeks ago I noticed some of those feral cats had their ear clipped. I asked around and was told that there is a program to catch feral cats, spay or neuter then release and that they clip the ear of the cat to show that they have already been treated. Guess who was awarded the grant money for that program? The same fat beach who brought the problem here in the first place. That's who!

She created the problem so that she could justify getting a grant. It really pieces me off!

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1111 Aug 23, 2013
-Dont Panic- wrote:
<quoted text>
A neighbor of mine moved into this neighborhood about five years ago. Before she arrived there were no cats to be found in this neighborhood. In the time since she arrived the feral cat population has grown to become a nuisance! That fat pig brings them here and releases them to breed. To make things worse, a few weeks ago I noticed some of those feral cats had their ear clipped. I asked around and was told that there is a program to catch feral cats, spay or neuter then release and that they clip the ear of the cat to show that they have already been treated. Guess who was awarded the grant money for that program? The same fat beach who brought the problem here in the first place. That's who!
She created the problem so that she could justify getting a grant. It really pieces me off!
TNR is just a feel-good "solution" by bleeding-heart, cat-lovers to a terrible problem. They are not helping ANYTHING. In fact, they are making it worse.

Bad things happen to wild cats. Disease, cars, other predators, poisons, gun shots, etc...

Even worse, by "saving" one feral cat, it ensures the deaths of thousands of other critters over the course of that cats' life time... that is assuming it lives several years or more. The same is true even if they are well fed. In fact, being well-fed makes it easier for feral cats to hunt. That is their instinct and it's what they do. They are darn good at it too. Being that cats are not native to this country, our native birds don't have the defenses against them that they would had they "evolved" together. And even if the cat doesn't catch and eat the bird, the bird will still die of infection.

Cat colonies in turn attract more cats, who still go on to breed before they are captured and castrated against their will.

I have a similar problem up north at the cabin. I only recently found out that my neighbor up there does the same thing. She has eight cats that live in the house. But she feeds all the other strays that come around or get dumped.

She showed me around her yard a few weeks ago. A dead Blue Jay lay in the garden. The wing from a young Rose-breasted Grosbeak lay along the side of her house. A pile of feathers from a dove were in the driveway. She told me about the several dead grouse she found. She also said she couldn't understand why she used to have nine or ten Indigo Buntings coming to her feeders, but this year she seen only two. When I asked her how many feral cats she was feeding, she said, "You don't even want to know."

This past spring, I wondered why I wasn't hearing as many birds as I used to up there. Northern MI is God's Country! There should be birds everywhere. Certain species that I know I should have been hearing just weren't there.

Ignorant people haven't a clue what they are doing to the native bird life with their precious felines.

You need to take care of the problem yourself, or it will only get worse. Don't wait until your birds disappear. They need your help NOW.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1112 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
I have photos of turbines too. It doesn't mean I could get close to them. Not close enough to see a five inch warbler laying in the grasses below it. Why do you think you only see photos of dead eagles and gulls? Because they are big and can be photographed at times from a road. Remember wind farms are on private property.
That's as good an excuse as any.

I guess you never heard of a telephoto lens?

Are you saying no bird wacko is willing to risk a trespassing charge to get the proof of your claim?

If there are millions of birds getting killed by wind towers, then they should be piled feet deep at the base of every tower and easily visible with a standard telephoto lens.
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

#1113 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
You are wrong on seveal counts.
Changes can be made in some areas. Not all. That's why we need to do what we can when we can to REDUCE the hazards we put out there. Hell, what about enforcing the current speed limits? If it says 55, it doesn't mean 72!
My original crank out windows had the screens on the inside,(Full length of the window) like many homes still do.
Fewer towers- YES: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/514531/q...
Actually, it IS the light that's attracting many of those birds to towers. As more and larger towers are built, more birds than ever are dying at them.
How many birds have the same fate as your hummers when they get trapped inside garages, pole barns and abandoned buildings? I leave my garage door shut most of the time for that very reason. Just another 5 million birds- give or take a few. No big deal, right?
Larger turbine blades mean more surface area. For night flying migrants like warblers, vireos, grosbeaks, tanagers, cuckoos, thrushes, buntings and so many other species, this is even more hazardous, especially on nights with low visibility when they can NOT see the giant towers and large blades in front of them. AND larger blades means faster spinning at the tips- nearly 200mph- FACT!
"As more wind farms are built offshore....".........we will have no idea how many birds, or what species, will be killed because they'll quickly become fish food.
What do you know about the migration pattern of the Blackpoll Warbler? Where do Common Loons spend the winter? What do pelicans eat? Where do shorebirds congregate? How many babies do Albatross produce each year?
Your numbers are outdated -key word- "estimates." No studies were ever done in this country regarding songbird deaths- only eagle deaths.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/21/big-winds-t...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdeling...
Well, it's plain you're convinced. But I am not. I think your politics are showing, in spite of your protestations to the contrary.

Even after I show you figures from the very organization you claim to trust, you have objections (excuses).

Apparently, you have done more research than the three bird-friendly organizations I have mentioned. You should apprise them of your results.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1114 Aug 23, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
That's as good an excuse as any.
I guess you never heard of a telephoto lens?
Are you saying no bird wacko is willing to risk a trespassing charge to get the proof of your claim?
If there are millions of birds getting killed by wind towers, then they should be piled feet deep at the base of every tower and easily visible with a standard telephoto lens.
I think I explained quite clearly several times how and when these small songbirds can get killed. I never said millions under every turbine. Please quit twisting the information I provide to suit your pro-wind energy agenda.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1115 Aug 23, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, it's plain you're convinced. But I am not. I think your politics are showing, in spite of your protestations to the contrary.
Even after I show you figures from the very organization you claim to trust, you have objections (excuses).
Apparently, you have done more research than the three bird-friendly organizations I have mentioned. You should apprise them of your results.
I don't have complete trust in ANY organization. They each have their own agendas and the people at the heads of these organizations also have political and sometimes social or economical agendas. They are only human, you know.

I'm only telling you what I know about birds, their migrations and how and why turbines are a huge hazard to them.

My love of birds has absolutely NOTHING to do with politics. I'm trying to warn people about what we stand to lose if we hastily erect all these monstrosities into the skies. We already know what happens at cell towers and skyscrapers. If you can't apply that same reasoning to large wind turbines and come to a similar conclusion, then you are simply in denial because it is YOU who has the political agenda.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1116 Aug 23, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
That's as good an excuse as any.
I guess you never heard of a telephoto lens?
Are you saying no bird wacko is willing to risk a trespassing charge to get the proof of your claim?
If there are millions of birds getting killed by wind towers, then they should be piled feet deep at the base of every tower and easily visible with a standard telephoto lens.
PS. I have heard of a telephoto lens. In fact, it is a 400mm lens I mainly use for my bird photography. And I can attest that small birds are not easily seen when they are hiding (or laying dead) in grass or other vegetation.

Especially during fall migration when many of the species are juveniles, or adults who have molted, and are in cryptic coloration, they blend in with the surroundings quite well.
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

#1117 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
TThen there are people, like Caveman here, who say "Puhleeze" when you suggest cats should NOT be roaming loose.
And he thinks >I< need to be educated!
Puhleeze!

You live with a litter box. Not me!

Your new rules, combined with the (sometimes) sensible ones already in place, would make America a more totalitarian society than North Korea.

Yes, we can tell politics don't influence your views. And pigs flock right alongside the Canada geese.
gcaveman1

Bay Springs, MS

#1118 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
You are wrong on seveal counts.
Changes can be made in some areas. Not all. That's why we need to do what we can when we can to REDUCE the hazards we put out there. Hell, what about enforcing the current speed limits? If it says 55, it doesn't mean 72!
My original crank out windows had the screens on the inside,(Full length of the window) like many homes still do.
Fewer towers- YES: http://www.technologyreview.com/news/514531/q...
Actually, it IS the light that's attracting many of those birds to towers. As more and larger towers are built, more birds than ever are dying at them.
How many birds have the same fate as your hummers when they get trapped inside garages, pole barns and abandoned buildings? I leave my garage door shut most of the time for that very reason. Just another 5 million birds- give or take a few. No big deal, right?
Larger turbine blades mean more surface area. For night flying migrants like warblers, vireos, grosbeaks, tanagers, cuckoos, thrushes, buntings and so many other species, this is even more hazardous, especially on nights with low visibility when they can NOT see the giant towers and large blades in front of them. AND larger blades means faster spinning at the tips- nearly 200mph- FACT!
"As more wind farms are built offshore....".........we will have no idea how many birds, or what species, will be killed because they'll quickly become fish food.
What do you know about the migration pattern of the Blackpoll Warbler? Where do Common Loons spend the winter? What do pelicans eat? Where do shorebirds congregate? How many babies do Albatross produce each year?
Your numbers are outdated -key word- "estimates." No studies were ever done in this country regarding songbird deaths- only eagle deaths.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/05/21/big-winds-t...
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdeling...
"Cellphone towers and wind turbines are more often monopoles these days, offering no temptation for a bird to light. "

Maybe I should have said "alight" OR "light on". You completely misunderstood the light thing and maybe I was not clear enough.

You would have laws passed that all cities must douse their lights at night, all cat owners must keep their cats inside, and all garage doors and barns must be closed. What a Brave New World, run by Big Brother.

Monopole;, a single concrete, steel, or aluminum pole supporting communication or other equipment. As opposed to a lattice or truss type tower, which has many places for a bird to "ALIGHT".

Numbers outdated? From 2005-2009? How much could have changed? More towers? Yes, probably more cellphone towers than wind generators, though. You are drowning, and grabbing at straws.

As I said, I'm a bird lover too, but then, there's the real world. We need solutions that will accommodate birds AND humans.
Dee Dee Dee

Emmaus, PA

#1119 Aug 23, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Puhleeze!
You live with a litter box. Not me!
Your new rules, combined with the (sometimes) sensible ones already in place, would make America a more totalitarian society than North Korea.
Yes, we can tell politics don't influence your views. And pigs flock right alongside the Canada geese.
Puhleeze! It is o.k. for your cat to do its business in my yard and leave half eaten birds, chipmunks and squirrels because you are lazy and do not want to take care of it but if I let my dog do his business in your yard and kill your cat you will tolerate it?
The problem is too many people let their politics influence their views rather than letting their views influence their politics.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1120 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
I think I explained quite clearly several times how and when these small songbirds can get killed. I never said millions under every turbine. Please quit twisting the information I provide to suit your pro-wind energy agenda.
So you admit it's a few birds per wind turbine.

An acceptable loss all things considered.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1121 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't have complete trust in ANY organization. They each have their own agendas and the people at the heads of these organizations also have political and sometimes social or economical agendas. They are only human, you know.
I'm only telling you what I know about birds, their migrations and how and why turbines are a huge hazard to them.
My love of birds has absolutely NOTHING to do with politics. I'm trying to warn people about what we stand to lose if we hastily erect all these monstrosities into the skies. We already know what happens at cell towers and skyscrapers. If you can't apply that same reasoning to large wind turbines and come to a similar conclusion, then you are simply in denial because it is YOU who has the political agenda.
And yet you don't appear to be lobbying to have all cell towers and skyscrapers taken down.

Not to mention removing all coal plants & refineries & other tall structures which are lit up at night.

For some reason those "bird killers" are okay, and you only focus on wind towers.

Yes, your agenda is pretty clear, whether it's political or not.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1122 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
PS. I have heard of a telephoto lens. In fact, it is a 400mm lens I mainly use for my bird photography. And I can attest that small birds are not easily seen when they are hiding (or laying dead) in grass or other vegetation.
Especially during fall migration when many of the species are juveniles, or adults who have molted, and are in cryptic coloration, they blend in with the surroundings quite well.
If wind turbines are the killing machines you keep claiming they are, I would think the dead birdies would pile up pretty quickly.
serfs up

Ormond Beach, FL

#1123 Aug 23, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
If wind turbines are the killing machines you keep claiming they are, I would think the dead birdies would pile up pretty quickly.
The eco green communities and cities should build these alternative energy sources. They are totally progressive in politics. They control the purse strings. With the help of half the population that is rich, progressive and who scream but keep their money we would see wha tyou spout. The pacific northwest should have turbines as far as you could see in those areas. Where are they? Alternative power plants built instead of traditional ones. Tell me!

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1124 Aug 23, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Puhleeze!
You live with a litter box. Not me!
Your new rules, combined with the (sometimes) sensible ones already in place, would make America a more totalitarian society than North Korea.
Yes, we can tell politics don't influence your views. And pigs flock right alongside the Canada geese.
I provided plenty of examples in my post about non-native species, how they effect native ecosystems and the laws regarding how to deal with non-natives.

Non-native cats kill FEDERALLY PROTECTED and even ENDANGERED birds species by the millions and possibly billions each year. This is a FACT.
Why should you be allowed to let your non-native cat kill protected native wildlife??? You act like that is acceptable and it is NOT!!!

I understand you probably love your cat. I love my dogs. But I don't let them run loose to kill things all over the neighborhood. Why is it legal to shoot a dog that's chasing a deer, and not to shoot a cat that's stalking and killing FEDERALLY PROTECTED BIRDS?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1125 Aug 23, 2013
Raptor in Michigan wrote:
<quoted text>
I provided plenty of examples in my post about non-native species, how they effect native ecosystems and the laws regarding how to deal with non-natives.
Non-native cats kill FEDERALLY PROTECTED and even ENDANGERED birds species by the millions and possibly billions each year. This is a FACT.
Why should you be allowed to let your non-native cat kill protected native wildlife??? You act like that is acceptable and it is NOT!!!
I understand you probably love your cat. I love my dogs. But I don't let them run loose to kill things all over the neighborhood. Why is it legal to shoot a dog that's chasing a deer, and not to shoot a cat that's stalking and killing FEDERALLY PROTECTED BIRDS?
It is completely legal to shoot a cat that is on your property regardless of what they are doing.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1126 Aug 23, 2013
serfs up wrote:
<quoted text> The eco green communities and cities should build these alternative energy sources. They are totally progressive in politics. They control the purse strings. With the help of half the population that is rich, progressive and who scream but keep their money we would see wha tyou spout. The pacific northwest should have turbines as far as you could see in those areas. Where are they? Alternative power plants built instead of traditional ones. Tell me!
Obviously you've never been to the Northwest.

Washington & Oregon rank #6 & #7 respectively for wind energy installations in the US, behind TX, CA, IA, MN, & IL.

Oregon is required by state law to get 25% of all electricity from renewable resources by 2025.

They live what they preach.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#1127 Aug 23, 2013
Dee Dee Dee wrote:
<quoted text>
Puhleeze! It is o.k. for your cat to do its business in my yard and leave half eaten birds, chipmunks and squirrels because you are lazy and do not want to take care of it but if I let my dog do his business in your yard and kill your cat you will tolerate it?
The problem is too many people let their politics influence their views rather than letting their views influence their politics.
You can't send your dog into your neighbor's yard to kill their cat, but you CAN kill any cat (or dog or cow or chicken or goat etc) which strays onto your own property.

“Conserve Wildlife Habitat”

Since: Dec 10

SE Michigan

#1128 Aug 23, 2013
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
"Cellphone towers and wind turbines are more often monopoles these days, offering no temptation for a bird to light. "
Maybe I should have said "alight" OR "light on". You completely misunderstood the light thing and maybe I was not clear enough.
I knew EXACTLY what you meant and responded accordingly. Maybe you didn't understand what I was saying about it actually BEING the light that attracts them. The hazard isn't about them trying to land on the structures, it's the structure being in their flight path during migration on nights when the visibility is poor. the lights confuse them. Maybe the birds are also trying to eat the insects attracted to the light. Whatever....either way, giant wind turbines are a HUGE hazard to night migrating birds!
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You would have laws passed that all cities must douse their lights at night, all cat owners must keep their cats inside, and all garage doors and barns must be closed. What a Brave New World, run by Big Brother.
Ever heard of FLAP?
http://www.flap.org/
Many cities are shutting off the lights in skyscrapers during migration. People are becoming educated on this subject. And as responsible stewards, we SHOULD do what we can to minimize bird deaths. I leave my garage door shut when I'm not in it. Big deal. Some people CHOOSE to care about things other than themselves.

And YES, cats have NO BUSINESS outside, period. And cat owners should be held accountable for every bird their cat kills. It's called responsible pet ownership. Oil comapnies have to pay for each dead bird. What makes cat owners and wind companies exempt?

Big Brother- not hardly. I am a conservative. I have strong conservative values and I also value freedom and liberty. I have almost no use for government. I also happen to care about the wildlife among us.
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Monopole;, a single concrete, steel, or aluminum pole supporting communication or other equipment. As opposed to a lattice or truss type tower, which has many places for a bird to "ALIGHT".
Numbers outdated? From 2005-2009? How much could have changed?
I posted the change in numbers. Apparently you missed it. Here it is again. AND these are only estimates.
http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/23/study-feds-...

And here is the letter from the American Bird Conservancy to the USFWS about the estimates:
http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/policy/co...
gcaveman1 wrote:
<quoted text>
More towers? Yes, probably more cellphone towers than wind generators, though. You are drowning, and grabbing at straws.
As I said, I'm a bird lover too, but then, there's the real world. We need solutions that will accommodate birds AND humans.
On that, I agree wholeheartedly. Wind farms do not accomodate the former.

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