Gay men sue 'conversion' therapists

Nov 27, 2012 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: WPTZ-TV Plattsburgh

Before Sheldon Bruck told his orthodox Jewish parents he was gay, the teenager looked for a way out of homosexuality.

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#88
Dec 3, 2012
 

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Arthur Goldberg, the founder of JONAH, started his little tax exempt organization one month after getting off five years probation for multiple federal convictions for his role in a multi-billion dollar municipal bond underwriting scheme. He's been quoted as saying that six months to three years of weekly therapy and prayer can cure homosexuality. All the plaintiffs in the lawsuit were involved in the program for at least a year.

http://theawarenesscenter.blogspot.com/2011/0...

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#89
Dec 5, 2012
 
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
The point we are trying to make here is that a person still has an orientation even if never expressed through actions. People who have made a commitment to celibacy, still have attractions, they just don't act on them. Even most of those not committed to celibacy do not act on every attraction, especially when in a monogamous relationship.
You're basing your opinion on IF the below is actually true without fault.
"...a person still has an orientation even if never expressed through actions."
I know people that didn't believe they were attracted to either sexual orientation and remained single without relationships but on occasion might engage in a one night stand.
So which act defines a sexual orientation? Sexual activity or whom you're attracted to for a relationship? Remember before you answer, in childhood before relationships and sexual activity, most people feel an attraction to one or both sexes. So sexual activity and relationships wouldn't define the sexual orientation for a child who has had neither experience. Maybe both? What of people that like sex but avoid relationships as do exist? What of people that only do relationships but avoid sexual activity outside of a relationship?

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#90
Dec 5, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You're basing your opinion on IF the below is actually true without fault.
"...a person still has an orientation even if never expressed through actions."
I know people that didn't believe they were attracted to either sexual orientation and remained single without relationships but on occasion might engage in a one night stand.
So which act defines a sexual orientation? Sexual activity or whom you're attracted to for a relationship? Remember before you answer, in childhood before relationships and sexual activity, most people feel an attraction to one or both sexes. So sexual activity and relationships wouldn't define the sexual orientation for a child who has had neither experience. Maybe both? What of people that like sex but avoid relationships as do exist? What of people that only do relationships but avoid sexual activity outside of a relationship?
When discussing sexual orientation, we are not talking about sex play among children. We are talking about a self awareness that includes an enduring pattern of emotional, affectional attractions in addition to physical attraction. Sexual orientation cannot be determined by behavior alone. It must include an enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction that simply does not exist in children before puberty. Again, there is no magic age, yet many begin the process in adolescence, while others may not develop an awareness till well into adulthood.

One difficulty here is that sexual identity, which includes orientation, is at least a little different for everyone. Yet most in social science agree sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. Bisexual people are those along the continuum, who to various degrees are attracted to both sexes.

So again, an act does not define a sexual orientation. It is the enduring pattern of affectional and physical attraction to one or both sexes, whether acted upon or not. Masturbation doesn't define your orientation. What you think about when masturbating, might be an indication though. But again, we are not talking about children, but rather adolescents and adults who have developed an awareness of an enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction.

The American Psychological Association:“Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding.”

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#91
Dec 5, 2012
 
Addressing the specific examples you pose:

"I know people that didn't believe they were attracted to either sexual orientation and remained single without relationships but on occasion might engage in a one night stand."

The one night stand person is still acting on some attraction. Not everyone is as self aware as others, and even more aren't honest about their self awareness if that includes any attraction to the same or both sexes. Time, and it may take decades, will reveal an enduring pattern of attraction to one or both sexes.

"What of people that like sex but avoid relationships as do exist?" Again, they are acting on attractions, and time will reveal the enduring pattern of attraction to one or both sexes.

"What of people that only do relationships but avoid sexual activity outside of a relationship?" Most people in a committed relationship acknowledge they still find other people attractive, they just don't act on the attractions. Hopefully they chose a relationship that reflects their enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction, rather than the relationship their parents expected of them or they felt pressured into as a result of societal pressure. Anti-gay beliefs however are often internalized, and many gay people enter an opposite sex marriage because it is expected of them, while remaining emotionally and physically attracted to members of the same sex. While this may work for bisexual people, especially those toward the straight end of the continuum, it often has disastrous long term results when one or both partners are exclusively gay.

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#92
Dec 5, 2012
 
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
When discussing sexual orientation, we are not talking about sex play among children. We are talking about a self awareness that includes an enduring pattern of emotional, affectional attractions in addition to physical attraction. Sexual orientation cannot be determined by behavior alone. It must include an enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction that simply does not exist in children before puberty. Again, there is no magic age, yet many begin the process in adolescence, while others may not develop an awareness till well into adulthood.
One difficulty here is that sexual identity, which includes orientation, is at least a little different for everyone. Yet most in social science agree sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. Bisexual people are those along the continuum, who to various degrees are attracted to both sexes.
So again, an act does not define a sexual orientation. It is the enduring pattern of affectional and physical attraction to one or both sexes, whether acted upon or not. Masturbation doesn't define your orientation. What you think about when masturbating, might be an indication though. But again, we are not talking about children, but rather adolescents and adults who have developed an awareness of an enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction.
The American Psychological Association:“Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding.”
You explained a lot of what you think/believe, but you didn't answer the question so I'll rephrase it.
What defines a sexual orientation?
I'll give my answer. No one specific thing defines a sexual orientation. A series of things that take place in one's life that define a sexual orientation for most. The rest seeming to be undefined for lack of evidence are exceptions to the majority.

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#93
Dec 6, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You explained a lot of what you think/believe, but you didn't answer the question so I'll rephrase it.
What defines a sexual orientation?
I'll give my answer. No one specific thing defines a sexual orientation. A series of things that take place in one's life that define a sexual orientation for most. The rest seeming to be undefined for lack of evidence are exceptions to the majority.
The definition was in there. Quite clearly, too.

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#94
Dec 6, 2012
 

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No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You explained a lot of what you think/believe, but you didn't answer the question so I'll rephrase it.
What defines a sexual orientation?
I'll give my answer. No one specific thing defines a sexual orientation. A series of things that take place in one's life that define a sexual orientation for most. The rest seeming to be undefined for lack of evidence are exceptions to the majority.


A self awareness that includes an enduring pattern of emotional, affectional attractions in addition to physical attraction.

Again, behavior alone does not define orientation. A person still has an orientation even if they never act upon that enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction.

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#95
Dec 6, 2012
 
snyper wrote:
<quoted text>
The definition was in there. Quite clearly, too.
I was asking him for his opinion, not a clinical definition. So no, he didn't answer the question.

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#96
Dec 6, 2012
 
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
A self awareness that includes an enduring pattern of emotional, affectional attractions in addition to physical attraction.
Again, behavior alone does not define orientation. A person still has an orientation even if they never act upon that enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction.
Behavior is everything you defined. Self awareness comes from behavior. Emotional knowledge comes from behavior. Affection is learned through behavior. Physical attraction is learned through behavior.
Need an example? Ever watch a infant grow into a toddler? Everything they observe and do is through behavior. The behavior of watching, listening, imitating, making sounds, etc. It is all mental and physical behavior.
A person's sexual orientation is established through mental and physical behaviours.

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#97
Dec 7, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I was asking him for his opinion, not a clinical definition. So no, he didn't answer the question.
As with mine (and perhaps for the same reason), the provided "opinion" and the clinical definition are the same.
Mona Lott

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#98
Dec 7, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
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Being bisexual is an explanation for while some grow with a single attraction, the rest grow with a double attraction. And dear, bisexual is a term for someone that is born having two sexual orientations. That is why their called "bisexual" meaning a person having dual sexual orientations. Get it?
A homosexual is someone that's attracted to a single sex which pinpoints them to being either A gay or B lesbian of a single sexual orientation.
A bisexual is someone that's attracted to two sexual orientations which pinpoints them to being bisexual with dual sexual orientations.
No, you flaming idiot. Bisexual: attracted to both sexes. It does NOT mean being attracted to two orientations. They have ONE orientation: bisexual.

Your feeble minded attempts at spinning this in your favor is LAUGHABLE. Case in point: "A bisexual is someone that's attracted to two sexual orientations which pinpoints them to being bisexual with dual sexual orientations." What kind of half-assed, uneducated dope writes a sentence like that?

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#100
Dec 7, 2012
 
snyper wrote:
<quoted text>
As with mine (and perhaps for the same reason), the provided "opinion" and the clinical definition are the same.
Yes, my "opinion" is based on the clinical definition.

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#101
Dec 7, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Behavior is everything you defined. Self awareness comes from behavior. Emotional knowledge comes from behavior. Affection is learned through behavior. Physical attraction is learned through behavior.
Need an example? Ever watch a infant grow into a toddler? Everything they observe and do is through behavior. The behavior of watching, listening, imitating, making sounds, etc. It is all mental and physical behavior.
A person's sexual orientation is established through mental and physical behaviours.
Self awareness does not depend on behavior. While true behavior can influence and shape self awareness, it is not always required. Hunger, for example, is a self awareness that is often independent of behavior. So is an enduring pattern of both emotional and physical attraction. Many wait a long time before turning that self awareness into action, while others may never act on it. Those who choose a life of celibacy, may still have an awareness of an enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction, even though they choose not to act on it. Sexual orientation is not determined by behavior.(Again, not just my opinion but my training.)
Mona Lott

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#102
Dec 7, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Behavior is everything you defined. Self awareness comes from behavior. Emotional knowledge comes from behavior. Affection is learned through behavior. Physical attraction is learned through behavior.
Need an example? Ever watch a infant grow into a toddler? Everything they observe and do is through behavior. The behavior of watching, listening, imitating, making sounds, etc. It is all mental and physical behavior.
A person's sexual orientation is established through mental and physical behaviours.
WRONG!

And you cannot back up your silly opinion with any verifiable data. Why do you hold an opinion that you cannot verify as truthful? Are you incorrigible? Are you unteachable?

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#103
Dec 7, 2012
 
snyper wrote:
<quoted text>
As with mine (and perhaps for the same reason), the provided "opinion" and the clinical definition are the same.
If his opinion was a paste of the clinical definition, than you're correct. But an actual opinion will always vary a bit from a clinical definition.

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#104
Dec 7, 2012
 
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
A self awareness that includes an enduring pattern of emotional, affectional attractions in addition to physical attraction.
Again, behavior alone does not define orientation. A person still has an orientation even if they never act upon that enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction.
Again you're trying desperately to ignorantly separate thinking from behavior. Behavior is thinking and vice-versa. For a human, behavior is the base of everything that we are.
And it's quite obvious that we're all born with (and some without) a sexual attraction that the APA has defined as a "sexual orientation."
Without mental/physical behavior, knowing one's sexual attraction becomes a bit difficult. Understand? Ever wonder why children aren't defined by their "sexual orientation?" It's because in children, a sexual orientation hasn't usually developed enough to be seen/observed by an adult that would recognize/define which sexual orientation the child has.

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#105
Dec 7, 2012
 

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No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Again you're trying desperately to ignorantly separate thinking from behavior. Behavior is thinking and vice-versa. For a human, behavior is the base of everything that we are.
And it's quite obvious that we're all born with (and some without) a sexual attraction that the APA has defined as a "sexual orientation."
Without mental/physical behavior, knowing one's sexual attraction becomes a bit difficult. Understand? Ever wonder why children aren't defined by their "sexual orientation?" It's because in children, a sexual orientation hasn't usually developed enough to be seen/observed by an adult that would recognize/define which sexual orientation the child has.
Is thinking about eating the same as eating? Hungry and starving people would disagree, as does everyone else on this thread. Labeling our decades of training and experience as ignorance fails to make it so.

Do celibate people still have a sexual orientation (enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction) even though they choose not to act on their attractions?

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#106
Dec 7, 2012
 
Not Yet Equal wrote:
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Yes, my "opinion" is based on the clinical definition.
And yes, I can say that the reverse is also true. lol

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#107
Dec 7, 2012
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Again you're trying desperately to ignorantly separate thinking from behavior. Behavior is thinking and vice-versa. For a human, behavior is the base of everything that we are.
And it's quite obvious that we're all born with (and some without) a sexual attraction that the APA has defined as a "sexual orientation."
Without mental/physical behavior, knowing one's sexual attraction becomes a bit difficult. Understand? Ever wonder why children aren't defined by their "sexual orientation?" It's because in children, a sexual orientation hasn't usually developed enough to be seen/observed by an adult that would recognize/define which sexual orientation the child has.
Observations of the non-human animal world demonstrate that sexuality derives from pre-thought structures of the CNS.

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#108
Dec 7, 2012
 
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
Is thinking about eating the same as eating? Hungry and starving people would disagree, as does everyone else on this thread. Labeling our decades of training and experience as ignorance fails to make it so.
Do celibate people still have a sexual orientation (enduring pattern of emotional and physical attraction) even though they choose not to act on their attractions?
You can't separate the two aspects of the human being and their growth into their sexual orientation. Any shrink worth their book learning will tell you that.
Physical behavior begins at infancy. Soon the development of intellect rises and with physical behavior the two become inseparable till death.
It is safe to say (though their may be exceptions) we all in childhood begin with a feeling of an attraction that we don't understand. As we watch and listen and learn from others as we age into adolescence, we begin to understand our attraction and if it's found acceptable or not by those closest to us. That is where we usually begin to understand what our sexual orientation is about and for whom we're attracted to and whom were not attracted to. But it is usually through trail and error as it's called that we learn for sure who we are attracted to.

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