Voices: Arizona's anti-gay bill is sh...

Voices: Arizona's anti-gay bill is shameful

There are 29 comments on the Reno Gazette-Journal story from Feb 24, 2014, titled Voices: Arizona's anti-gay bill is shameful. In it, Reno Gazette-Journal reports that:

The United States has long been a unique melting pot for the world because we have enshrined in our laws the principle of equality for all, regardless of race, religion, gender or culture.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Reno Gazette-Journal.

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Chance

Grove City, PA

#1 Feb 24, 2014
How would the business people know they are gay? When two men or two women ask a business to participate in their wedding, that's a pretty good clue. I think there's a whole lot of hyperbole in the reactions to this. I doubt any business people would refuse to sell a gay person anything, but Christians should not have to support an activity that is a sin to them. Providing a service for a "gay wedding" would be supporting two people engaged in sin. There are many products and services that no Christian would be engaged in providing. You probably won't find a Christian running a strip club or working as a bartender, for example. A gay person buying flowers is not engaged in a sin. A gay person "marrying" someone of the same gender IS engaged in a sin. Again, I ask - why would anybody want someone providing services for their wedding under coercion? Why would you want somebody doing that when they do not support the fact that you are getting married in the first place? This law shouldn't even be necessary. Only the lawsuits that gays have pushed upon Christians have made this law necessary. You can't expect people to change their relationship with God for gays. God is eternal life and an ever present help in time of trouble. Gays, far from doing something good for society, are more and more proving to be a detriment, whether they are undermining society's institutions or just being intolerant and generally annoying.
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

#2 Feb 24, 2014
Chance wrote:
How would the business people know they are gay? When two men or two women ask a business to participate in their wedding, that's a pretty good clue. I think there's a whole lot of hyperbole in the reactions to this. I doubt any business people would refuse to sell a gay person anything, but Christians should not have to support an activity that is a sin to them. Providing a service for a "gay wedding" would be supporting two people engaged in sin. There are many products and services that no Christian would be engaged in providing. You probably won't find a Christian running a strip club or working as a bartender, for example. A gay person buying flowers is not engaged in a sin. A gay person "marrying" someone of the same gender IS engaged in a sin. Again, I ask - why would anybody want someone providing services for their wedding under coercion? Why would you want somebody doing that when they do not support the fact that you are getting married in the first place? This law shouldn't even be necessary. Only the lawsuits that gays have pushed upon Christians have made this law necessary. You can't expect people to change their relationship with God for gays. God is eternal life and an ever present help in time of trouble. Gays, far from doing something good for society, are more and more proving to be a detriment, whether they are undermining society's institutions or just being intolerant and generally annoying.
Pure Christians follow the example found in the Authorized King James Bible:
.
Marriage is a covenant two people make when their souls become knit as one; just like GOD says in the Bible:
.
++++++++++
1 Samuel 18 :1> And it came to passe when hee made an ende of speaking vnto Saul, that the soule of Ionathan was knit with the soule of Dauid, and Ionathan loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:3> Then Ionathan and Dauid made a couenant, because he loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:4> And Ionathan stript himselfe of the robe that was vpon him, and gaue it to Dauid, and his garments, euen to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
.
1 Samuel 20:41> And assoone as the ladde was gone, Dauid arose out of a place toward the South, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himselfe three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, vntill Dauid exceeded.
.
1 Samuel 20:42> And Ionathan said to Dauid, Goe in peace, forasmuch as wee haue sworne both of vs in the Name of the Lord, saying; The Lord be betweene me and thee, and betweene my seede and thy seede for euer. And hee arose, and departed: and Ionathan went into the citie.
.
2 Samuel 1:25> How are the mightie fallen in the midst of the battell! O Ionathan, thou wast slaine in thine high places.
.
2 Samuel 1:26> I am distressed for thee, my brother Ionathan, very pleasant hast thou beene vnto mee: thy loue to mee was wonderfull, passing the loue of women.
++++++++++

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#3 Feb 25, 2014
Chance wrote:
......... Providing a service for a "gay wedding" would be supporting two people engaged in sin. There are many products and services that no Christian would be engaged in providing. You probably won't find a Christian running a strip club or working as a bartender, for example........
That's the point, isn't it. If the business you are in caters to a crowd you don't approve of, then you are in the wrong business. If your personal religious beliefs cause you to believe that two people purchasing flowers is sinful, you should close up shop and find something else to do.

And if your argument holds true, then any business owner should be able to discriminate in any way they please, and we will need to go back to posting signs on the doors of public accommodations, like "whites only".

Do you really think we should go back to that?
david traversa

Argentina

#4 Feb 25, 2014
The absurdities nurtured by a now discredited and very lame philosophy .

Since: Dec 08

El Paso, TX

#5 Feb 25, 2014
Chance wrote:
How would the business people know they are gay? When two men or two women ask a business to participate in their wedding, that's a pretty good clue. I think there's a whole lot of hyperbole in the reactions to this. I doubt any business people would refuse to sell a gay person anything, but Christians should not have to support an activity that is a sin to them. Providing a service for a "gay wedding" would be supporting two people engaged in sin. There are many products and services that no Christian would be engaged in providing. You probably won't find a Christian running a strip club or working as a bartender, for example. A gay person buying flowers is not engaged in a sin. A gay person "marrying" someone of the same gender IS engaged in a sin. Again, I ask - why would anybody want someone providing services for their wedding under coercion? Why would you want somebody doing that when they do not support the fact that you are getting married in the first place? This law shouldn't even be necessary. Only the lawsuits that gays have pushed upon Christians have made this law necessary. You can't expect people to change their relationship with God for gays. God is eternal life and an ever present help in time of trouble. Gays, far from doing something good for society, are more and more proving to be a detriment, whether they are undermining society's institutions or just being intolerant and generally annoying.
Since you seem to believe certain religions are entitled to judge others who shop in their businesses I would assume you would agree a Muslim business owner should be allowed to demand a customer have their hand cut off if they shoplifted? That all religious people be required to screen all it's customers to determine if they are sinners prior to selling to anyone? That participating Christian shop owners be required to post a sign on their front door list the sins they wish to use to determine who they serve? That stores who are open or work on their religions God determined day of rest be required to close their business on that day?

Or are you just a troll trying to justify your ignorance and bigotry?

Since: Jul 09

Indy/Philly/Toronto

#6 Feb 25, 2014
The only thing worse than this unethical and inequitable law are the people who try to justify it by quoting a book that advocates slavery. torture and murder to worship an imaginary deity who claims to be loving and forgiving. Their hypocrisy is only exceeded by their limitless phobias.

Funny, how people used to believe that homosexuality was a mental disorder and required treatment. If ANYONE ever needed treatment, it's these folks.

Giving them any credence .... now THAT'S a sin.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#7 Feb 25, 2014
Get your signs ready:

"Whites Only"
"No Jews Allowed"
"Gays not served Here"
"No Asians"
"No unescorted Women allowed"

Ahhh, the good old days...
Frontline Fighter

Brownsville, PA

#8 Feb 25, 2014
Oh, what hysteria and drama. Nothing like this reaction to the law makes it clear that gays aren't about getting rights. They are instead all about destroying Christianity. This law isn't about making gays do what Christians want. It is instead about gays making Christians do what they want. Even in a era with such widely diverging moral standards, coexistence would be possible. Unfortunately, gays have far-left leaning Big Government using them to attempt to drive traditional Christians moral values far underground, a necessary measure to complete their march into communism. Keep it up! This is just the kind of wake-up call America needs.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#9 Feb 25, 2014
Frontline Fighter wrote:
Oh, what hysteria and drama. Nothing like this reaction to the law makes it clear that gays aren't about getting rights. They are instead all about destroying Christianity. This law isn't about making gays do what Christians want. It is instead about gays making Christians do what they want. Even in a era with such widely diverging moral standards, coexistence would be possible. Unfortunately, gays have far-left leaning Big Government using them to attempt to drive traditional Christians moral values far underground, a necessary measure to complete their march into communism. Keep it up! This is just the kind of wake-up call America needs.
Your proposed law would allow businesses to discriminate against Christians.
Frontline Fighter

Brownsville, PA

#10 Feb 25, 2014
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Your proposed law would allow businesses to discriminate against Christians.
MY law? I don't think so. If anybody wishes to discriminate against me for ANY reason, then that is someone with whom I don't wish to do business. I would never dream of getting Big Government to make someone do business with me. Doing business with someone is supporting them. It is a relationship. Of course, with the left wingers destroying businesses with their overbearing regulations, high tax burden, and Obamacare, we could get to the point where choices will be very limited, but that is not yet the case. I have plenty of choices, and I will choose the one that reflects my values, not the one that is doing business with me only because the government said forces them do do it.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#11 Feb 25, 2014
Frontline Fighter wrote:
<quoted text>
MY law? I don't think so. If anybody wishes to discriminate against me for ANY reason, then that is someone with whom I don't wish to do business. I would never dream of getting Big Government to make someone do business with me. Doing business with someone is supporting them. It is a relationship. Of course, with the left wingers destroying businesses with their overbearing regulations, high tax burden, and Obamacare, we could get to the point where choices will be very limited, but that is not yet the case. I have plenty of choices, and I will choose the one that reflects my values, not the one that is doing business with me only because the government said forces them do do it.
The point is a member of a minority group might NOT have "plenty of choices" if businesses are allowed to discriminate against them.

So if all businesses in town decided they didn't want to do business with you because you belong to a particular group?

Then what? Will you just accept it and move somewhere else?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#12 Feb 25, 2014
Businesses should be required to post a sign in their window which group of customers they refuse to serve- gays, blacks, jews, Asians, left-handed, old, disabled, fat, tall, etc, etc.

That way EVERYONE could make an informed decision about where to spend their money.

Of course the cowardly bigots would never do that, because most of my straight neighbors would never shop at a store with a "No Gays" sign in the window.
Frontline Fighter

Brownsville, PA

#13 Feb 25, 2014
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
The point is a member of a minority group might NOT have "plenty of choices" if businesses are allowed to discriminate against them.
So if all businesses in town decided they didn't want to do business with you because you belong to a particular group?
Then what? Will you just accept it and move somewhere else?
More drama. You are making the assumption, I guess, that absolutely no businesses are run by Christians. That's insane. I would never assume that gays don't run businesses. Trust me. I'm not worried that there will be no one that will want to do business with me. Maybe the day will come when gays control all businesses, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Frontline Fighter

Brownsville, PA

#14 Feb 25, 2014
WeTheSheeple wrote:
Businesses should be required to post a sign in their window which group of customers they refuse to serve- gays, blacks, jews, Asians, left-handed, old, disabled, fat, tall, etc, etc.
That way EVERYONE could make an informed decision about where to spend their money.
Of course the cowardly bigots would never do that, because most of my straight neighbors would never shop at a store with a "No Gays" sign in the window.
Nobody is talking about businesses refusing to do business with anybody for any reason except that some business people prefer not to participate in gay weddings. It is unbelievable what a big dramatic deal gays are make about that one thing. Pay attention: a wedding is a very personal and intimate event. If gays are going to take it as seriously as a lot of straights take it, then you do not want somebody involved in your wedding unless the are 100% behind your getting married. If somebody tells you they can't support that, then they are doing you a huge favor. Get over it, move on, find some of those nice gay or gay sympathesizer photographers, florists, and bakers to help you out. And stop running to Big Daddy Government to beat up everybody that isn't 100% behind you. Christians are trying very hard to co-exist. Gays should make an effort, too. Don't be pig-headed about this. The loss will be yours when the more "open-minded" Christians start realizing just what results from giving gays the right to call themselves "married." Most of them are not calculating that they will be forced to participate if they don't protest the changes the government is making. Gays' action over this is shaking up a lot of them to realize that if you give gays and inch, they take a freaking mile. Christians are starting realize that tolerance toward gays means gay intolerance toward Christians and gets Christians' rights removed in total violation of the Constitution.

Since: Dec 08

El Paso, TX

#15 Feb 25, 2014
Frontline Fighter wrote:
Oh, what hysteria and drama. Nothing like this reaction to the law makes it clear that gays aren't about getting rights. They are instead all about destroying Christianity. This law isn't about making gays do what Christians want. It is instead about gays making Christians do what they want. Even in a era with such widely diverging moral standards, coexistence would be possible. Unfortunately, gays have far-left leaning Big Government using them to attempt to drive traditional Christians moral values far underground, a necessary measure to complete their march into communism. Keep it up! This is just the kind of wake-up call America needs.
Bet your neighbors hide when they see you outdoors. They don't want to catch the stupid.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#16 Feb 25, 2014
Frontline Fighter wrote:
<quoted text>
More drama. You are making the assumption, I guess, that absolutely no businesses are run by Christians. That's insane. I would never assume that gays don't run businesses. Trust me. I'm not worried that there will be no one that will want to do business with me. Maybe the day will come when gays control all businesses, but I'm not holding my breath on that one.
Exactly my point.

As a member of the majority you don't have to worry about finding businesses willing to serve you.

Minorities DO, especially if laws like this endorse such discrimination.
Chance

Grove City, PA

#17 Feb 25, 2014
Rainbow Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
Pure Christians follow the example found in the Authorized King James Bible:
.
Marriage is a covenant two people make when their souls become knit as one; just like GOD says in the Bible:
.
++++++++++
1 Samuel 18 :1> And it came to passe when hee made an ende of speaking vnto Saul, that the soule of Ionathan was knit with the soule of Dauid, and Ionathan loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:3> Then Ionathan and Dauid made a couenant, because he loued him as his owne soule.
.
1 Samuel 18:4> And Ionathan stript himselfe of the robe that was vpon him, and gaue it to Dauid, and his garments, euen to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
.
1 Samuel 20:41> And assoone as the ladde was gone, Dauid arose out of a place toward the South, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himselfe three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, vntill Dauid exceeded.
.
1 Samuel 20:42> And Ionathan said to Dauid, Goe in peace, forasmuch as wee haue sworne both of vs in the Name of the Lord, saying; The Lord be betweene me and thee, and betweene my seede and thy seede for euer. And hee arose, and departed: and Ionathan went into the citie.
.
2 Samuel 1:25> How are the mightie fallen in the midst of the battell! O Ionathan, thou wast slaine in thine high places.
.
2 Samuel 1:26> I am distressed for thee, my brother Ionathan, very pleasant hast thou beene vnto mee: thy loue to mee was wonderfull, passing the loue of women.
++++++++++
The Bible never called that marriage. And, what do you know, not a single business was required to participate in that friendship covenant, after which they both went on to marry women. Your point is totally lost..

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#18 Feb 25, 2014
Frontline Fighter wrote:
<quoted text>
Nobody is talking about businesses refusing to do business with anybody for any reason except that some business people prefer not to participate in gay weddings. It is unbelievable what a big dramatic deal gays are make about that one thing. Pay attention: a wedding is a very personal and intimate event. If gays are going to take it as seriously as a lot of straights take it, then you do not want somebody involved in your wedding unless the are 100% behind your getting married. If somebody tells you they can't support that, then they are doing you a huge favor. Get over it, move on, find some of those nice gay or gay sympathesizer photographers, florists, and bakers to help you out. And stop running to Big Daddy Government to beat up everybody that isn't 100% behind you. Christians are trying very hard to co-exist. Gays should make an effort, too. Don't be pig-headed about this. The loss will be yours when the more "open-minded" Christians start realizing just what results from giving gays the right to call themselves "married." Most of them are not calculating that they will be forced to participate if they don't protest the changes the government is making. Gays' action over this is shaking up a lot of them to realize that if you give gays and inch, they take a freaking mile. Christians are starting realize that tolerance toward gays means gay intolerance toward Christians and gets Christians' rights removed in total violation of the Constitution.
Wrong.

NONE of these proposed laws are limited to only to weddings of same-sex couples.

THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.

They are written SO broadly that ANYONE could discriminate against ANYONE for ANY reason as long as they claim a "deeply held religious belief".

I could just as easily claim a catholic customer wanting an easter bunny goes against MY "deeply held religious belief" and would be able to discriminate against them under these proposed laws.

The "Christians" behind these bills are trying very hard to legalize DISCRIMINATION. They better be careful what they wish for, because a LOT of people might just want to turn that discrimination around on them some day.
Chance

Grove City, PA

#19 Feb 25, 2014
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the point, isn't it. If the business you are in caters to a crowd you don't approve of, then you are in the wrong business. If your personal religious beliefs cause you to believe that two people purchasing flowers is sinful, you should close up shop and find something else to do.
And if your argument holds true, then any business owner should be able to discriminate in any way they please, and we will need to go back to posting signs on the doors of public accommodations, like "whites only".
Do you really think we should go back to that?
Of course not, and neither do these people who don't want to participate in a gay wedding. There is a big difference between selling "two people" flowers and staging the floral portion of a wedding. The latter requires that the florist be on the scene. Why would anybody want somebody at their wedding who thinks that they should not be getting "married"/ BTW, I just heard a description of this law from one of the co-sponsors. She said that gay protesters are trying to make this law something that it isn't. She said that it is a "technical law" that just gives Christians standing in court if they refuse to participate in a gay wedding.

In the long run, I do think this law in unnecessary. Now that Christians who provide wedding services have seen what happens to those who don't want to participate, they will find ways to deal with gay couples without outright stating anything about their beliefs.

One other thought. Some restaurant owners are now starting to say that people can't visit their establishments with infants in tow because the crying upsets other customers. It is going to be really interesting to see how this play out. Those restaurant owners reserve the right to refuse service to some individuals, but gays are saying that no one should be refused service for anything. Who will win? If the gays win, I hope that somewhere down the road, there is a gay restaurant owner who wants to refuse service to people who bring babies to their business. What will happen if the couple that wants to bring in the baby is a gay couple?
Chance

Grove City, PA

#20 Feb 25, 2014
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong.
NONE of these proposed laws are limited to only to weddings of same-sex couples.
THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT.
They are written SO broadly that ANYONE could discriminate against ANYONE for ANY reason as long as they claim a "deeply held religious belief".
I could just as easily claim a catholic customer wanting an easter bunny goes against MY "deeply held religious belief" and would be able to discriminate against them under these proposed laws.
The "Christians" behind these bills are trying very hard to legalize DISCRIMINATION. They better be careful what they wish for, because a LOT of people might just want to turn that discrimination around on them some day.
Gays had better be careful what they wish for as well. A gay printer might someday be asked to print signs for the Westboro Baptist Church.

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