Bishop responds to Boy Scouts' decision on admission of homosexual members

May 27, 2013 Full story: Catholic World News 240

Bishop Robert Guglielmone of Charleston, the episcopal liaison of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops to the National Catholic Committee on Scouting, has responded to the Boy Scouts of America's approval of a resolution stating that "No youth may be denied membership in the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of sexual orientation or ... (more)

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Dan

Omaha, NE

#107 Jun 21, 2013
Michael wrote:
Catholic clergy themselves have a higher rate of homosexuality than does the general population.
http://www.actupny.org/YELL/catholicpriests.h...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_an...
ActUp and Wikipedia.

ActUp is an activist group, and Wikipedia is reliable to the point that it's prohibited from being used as a source for research for school kids.

Good work, Michael.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#108 Jun 21, 2013
Michael wrote:
Catholic clergy themselves have a higher rate of homosexuality than does the general population.
http://www.actupny.org/YELL/catholicpriests.h...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_an...
Yes, they do, for generations the priesthood has been the one of the few options available for gay men being taught to be Catholic. Did you have anything resembling a point to enlightening us to something we already knew? It better not be to remind us of their abuse scandal, because most of the perpetrators in it were straight, including those abusing boys.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#109 Jun 21, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, they do, for generations the priesthood has been the one of the few options available for gay men being taught to be Catholic. Did you have anything resembling a point to enlightening us to something we already knew? It better not be to remind us of their abuse scandal, because most of the perpetrators in it were straight, including those abusing boys.
He just throws mud at the wall, Rick.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#110 Jun 21, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, they do, for generations the priesthood has been the one of the few options available for gay men being taught to be Catholic. Did you have anything resembling a point to enlightening us to something we already knew? It better not be to remind us of their abuse scandal, because most of the perpetrators in it were straight, including those abusing boys.
That would not be a fair assessment.

Most of the cases of abuse that have been exposed are cases in which pedophile priests abused boys. Since choirs of boys and acolytes made up of boys can be found in the Roman Church, including young, homosexual candidates for acceptance into Orders, that is where the pedophiles have concentrated their abuses.

The only reasonably consistent conclusion that can be drawn from these incidents is that there are a number of Roman Catholic priests who are both homosexual and pedophile.

The conclusion that cannot be drawn is that there is any specific relationship between homosexuality and pedophilism. There does not appear to be any evidence of such, except that homosexual pedophiles gravitate toward settings where boys are available for them to prey upon.

Are there pedophiles who prefer girls? Yes, of course. But, you will not find large gatherings of girls in the Boy Scouts or among the acolytes or choirs of boys in the RCC.

I can say it about four more times, any three different ways. But, these are the facts, whether one chooses to accept sources cited in wiki or not.

Rev. Ken

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#111 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
That would not be a fair assessment.
Most of the cases of abuse that have been exposed are cases in which pedophile priests abused boys. Since choirs of boys and acolytes made up of boys can be found in the Roman Church, including young, homosexual candidates for acceptance into Orders, that is where the pedophiles have concentrated their abuses.
The only reasonably consistent conclusion that can be drawn from these incidents is that there are a number of Roman Catholic priests who are both homosexual and pedophile.
The conclusion that cannot be drawn is that there is any specific relationship between homosexuality and pedophilism. There does not appear to be any evidence of such, except that homosexual pedophiles gravitate toward settings where boys are available for them to prey upon.
Are there pedophiles who prefer girls? Yes, of course. But, you will not find large gatherings of girls in the Boy Scouts or among the acolytes or choirs of boys in the RCC.
I can say it about four more times, any three different ways. But, these are the facts, whether one chooses to accept sources cited in wiki or not.
Rev. Ken
Actually, there were few pedophiles in the priesthood, their problem was largely made up of otherwise heterosexual men, with psychological and emotional issues, who acted out inappropriately with those made readily available to them, post-pubescent boys. The John Jay reports written for the USCCB provide a detailed accounting of how this problem came about.

The vast majority of the abusers had entered the priesthood in the 30's-50's when they were actively excluding anyone even suspected of homosexuality. When the Church began more or less looking the other way on the whole he might be gay thing in the 60's and 70's, the rate of abuse by those in the clergy actually dropped considerably.

As for "homosexual pedophiles", very few of those are homosexual in regards to their sexual orientation. According to research on the subject, roughly 2/3 of them identify as at least predominately straight and most have a sexual history with adults that back them up on that self-assessment. Heterosexuality is a actually great cover for them and probably why they are able to rack up so many more victims on average than those who favor little girls and even those who don't care about their gender. A "straight man would never do that", now go take your shower with Coach Sandusky.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#112 Jun 21, 2013
That should be roughly 3/4 of them identify as at least predominately straight, Abel put the rate at 77%.
SHADOW

Boerne, TX

#113 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Misuse of scripture.
Pot meet UnRev, you flaming hypocrite. For you of all people to talk about "Misuse of scripture" watch out for the heavens to part fella.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#114 Jun 21, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, there were few pedophiles in the priesthood, their problem was largely made up of otherwise heterosexual men, with psychological and emotional issues, who acted out inappropriately with those made readily available to them, post-pubescent boys. The John Jay reports written for the USCCB provide a detailed accounting of how this problem came about.
The vast majority of the abusers had entered the priesthood in the 30's-50's when they were actively excluding anyone even suspected of homosexuality. When the Church began more or less looking the other way on the whole he might be gay thing in the 60's and 70's, the rate of abuse by those in the clergy actually dropped considerably.
As for "homosexual pedophiles", very few of those are homosexual in regards to their sexual orientation. According to research on the subject, roughly 2/3 of them identify as at least predominately straight and most have a sexual history with adults that back them up on that self-assessment. Heterosexuality is a actually great cover for them and probably why they are able to rack up so many more victims on average than those who favor little girls and even those who don't care about their gender. A "straight man would never do that", now go take your shower with Coach Sandusky.
Sorry, Rick. Not a credible explanation.

The problem has been centuries in the making.

And I, for one, do not put all credibility in the John Jay reports and statistics. It appears that the premise for certain conclusions were established before the statistics were found to confirm.

Rev. Ken

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#115 Jun 21, 2013
RevKen wrote:
Sorry, Rick. Not a credible explanation.
The problem has been centuries in the making.
And I, for one, do not put all credibility in the John Jay reports and statistics. It appears that the premise for certain conclusions were established before the statistics were found to confirm.
Rev. Ken
I found the John Jay reports to be one of the most credible independent reviews of available evidence that I have read. While you may not find the explanation credible, what happened in the Church does reflect what goes on in the world outside it when it comes to this problem. The vast majority of the perpetrators were not serial molesters, nor pedophiles, but psychologically unstable men acting out inappropriately with a readily available victim. The Church did help perpetuate their problem, by trying to pretend that they were fixing the few pedophiles and serial molesters they did have by shipping them from place to place, but the majority of the abusers had only one victim. Pretty much what happens in the rest of society.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#116 Jun 22, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, there were few pedophiles in the priesthood, their problem was largely made up of otherwise heterosexual men, with psychological and emotional issues, who acted out inappropriately with those made readily available to them, post-pubescent boys ...
As if all Roman priests were cloistered; the fact is that RCC altar servers have been "co-ed" since Vatican II.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#117 Jun 22, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
As if all Roman priests were cloistered; the fact is that RCC altar servers have been "co-ed" since Vatican II.
Evidently don't know your Catholics as well as you thought you did, sweetie. While there were some dioceses that went coed back then, it wasn't with the Vatican's permission and that did not change with Vatican II, because it was still expressly prohibited by the Liturgicae instaurationes in 1970 and the Inaestimabile donum in 1980. The Code of Canon Law in 1983 went gender neutral in how it was worded, but the Vatican didn't get around to confirming that until 1994. Nice try though. By the way, while the vast majority of the victims were boys, there were girls molested as well, most in the late 80's and early 90's, boys as victims peaked in the early 70's.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#118 Jun 23, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>
Evidently don't know your Catholics as well as you thought you did ...
Evidently you don't know that Catholic diocesan priests are not cloistered, assuming you even know what "cloistered" means.

And despite your word salad response, women altar servers and lay ministers of the eurcharist have been active everywhere in the RCC for about half a century.

You are way behind the times.

“Plays well with others.”

Since: Jun 07

LIVING WELL*THE BEST REVENGE

#119 Jun 23, 2013

“Plays well with others.”

Since: Jun 07

LIVING WELL*THE BEST REVENGE

#120 Jun 23, 2013

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#121 Jun 23, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
Evidently you don't know that Catholic diocesan priests are not cloistered, assuming you even know what "cloistered" means.
And despite your word salad response, women altar servers and lay ministers of the eurcharist have been active everywhere in the RCC for about half a century.
You are way behind the times.
I realize that those in the priesthood aren't cloistered sweetie, I never implied that they were. I imagine that just about everybody identified as having taken part in abuse had the opportunity to act out sexually with partners who not only were age appropriate and congruent to their adult sexual orientation, but consenting as well. They, largely because of other mental health issues and often fueled by alcohol and/or drugs, chose not to and acted out sexually by victimizing those most readily available and least likely to report it.

Females participating in altar service was a new idea that half century ago, the Vatican didn't give their seal of approval to those that were doing it only a couple of decades ago. It may have served to increase the number of girls being abused, because as the experiment expanded, so to did the number of girls abused. There's correlation but no evidence of causation.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#122 Jun 23, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>I realize that those in the priesthood aren't cloistered sweetie, I never implied that they were. I imagine that just about everybody identified as having taken part in abuse had the opportunity to act out sexually with partners who not only were age appropriate and congruent to their adult sexual orientation, but consenting as well. They, largely because of other mental health issues and often fueled by alcohol and/or drugs, chose not to and acted out sexually by victimizing those most readily available and least likely to report it.
Females participating in altar service was a new idea that half century ago, the Vatican didn't give their seal of approval to those that were doing it only a couple of decades ago. It may have served to increase the number of girls being abused, because as the experiment expanded, so to did the number of girls abused. There's correlation but no evidence of causation.
Just a reminder of the thread topic.

Also, we should acknowledge that there is a difference between sexual orientation and the class of recognized psychological disorders that are responsible for pedophilism.

Pedophilism is a sexual appetite-compulsion for having a controlling sexual act with a child.

People who have this problem often seek out situations where encounters with trusting and potentially groomed victims can be created.

Such situations can be found in teacher-student venues as well as organizations and events of all sorts where children are gathered.

Pedophiles have taken residence in organizations with positions of authority over gathered children so that they will have the opportunity to create their desired encounters. Such organizations do include the RCC and the BSA.

In both of these institutional organizations, the majority of children are boys. As a result of the gender mix, it is understood that the pedophiles who have found their way into these settings are targeting boys. Though the group of perpetrators are pedophiles, they are also chiefly homosexual. And, though there are homosexuals resident in these settings, along with a majority of professed-celibates, whether hetero- or homo-, they are not necessarily pedophiles.

Any study, John Jay or other, that does not fully recognize and acknowledge the depth-historical and institutionalized parameters of these human-created settings sets up the basis for conclusions to be improperly drawn from a set of flawed precepts.

Rev. Ken

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#123 Jun 23, 2013
RevKen wrote:
Just a reminder of the thread topic.
Also, we should acknowledge that there is a difference between sexual orientation and the class of recognized psychological disorders that are responsible for pedophilism.
Pedophilism is a sexual appetite-compulsion for having a controlling sexual act with a child.
I am aware of that, however, the vast majority of the men who commit acts of sexual abuse against children are not pedophiles. They have no sexual appetite for children per se, merely a sexual appetite and an unfortunate outlet for it. While pedophiles rack up the vast majority of the victims, the odds that any given child will be molested by someone who isn't, far greater. The single most likely suspect is the man putting it to mommy. There are a lot more men behind bars for that scenario than for being a serial pedophile abuser. While there is good reason to be on the look out for pedophiles, they aren't the only monsters that need to be watched for.
RevKen wrote:
People who have this problem often seek out situations where encounters with trusting and potentially groomed victims can be created.
Also true, but far from the Church's only problem. While they were mishandling their pedophiles, they also were letting in a heck of a lot of non-pedophiles, who were otherwise mentally unsuited to the calling and letting them run amok among the altar boys. Child sexual abuse is just the most obscene of the problems they created for themselves. Unlike the population of Catholics as a whole, the population in the priesthood isn't even allowed to replace itself. Not an easy sell to new recruits, especially past puberty, when you limit your appeal like that, standards tend to slide.
RevKen wrote:
Such situations can be found in teacher-student venues as well as organizations and events of all sorts where children are gathered.
Pedophiles have taken residence in organizations with positions of authority over gathered children so that they will have the opportunity to create their desired encounters. Such organizations do include the RCC and the BSA.
I agree, pedophiles can get scarily effective in acting out on their urges and even get themselves into situations where no one in their right mind would want them in. But I insist on an accurate depiction of who these men are most likely to look like and the realization that there are lot more monsters to watch for that aren't going to be pedophiles, just alone with your child.
RevKen wrote:
In both of these institutional organizations, the majority of children are boys. As a result of the gender mix, it is understood that the pedophiles who have found their way into these settings are targeting boys. Though the group of perpetrators are pedophiles, they are also chiefly homosexual. And, though there are homosexuals resident in these settings, along with a majority of professed-celibates, whether hetero- or homo-, they are not necessarily pedophiles.
Any study, John Jay or other, that does not fully recognize and acknowledge the depth-historical and institutionalized parameters of these human-created settings sets up the basis for conclusions to be improperly drawn from a set of flawed precepts.
Rev. Ken
The priesthood, from its inception has been an institution primarily for sexually broken and men who didn't want to try and pass for straight. Keeping your legs crossed in the name of Jesus is a tough sell among successfully functioning heterosexual men for some odd reason. They attracted what they got and the prayer that they would keep their proclivities and orientations to themselves. Even the ugliest of birds tend to find each other and try to flock together and the Church ran a sanctuary for a bunch of species. Yes there were pedophiles that infiltrated the Church, but neither in terms of their numbers, nor of the boys the victimized by them, were they the Church's biggest problem, let alone only one.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#124 Jun 23, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>
I realize that those in the priesthood aren't cloistered sweetie, I never implied that they were. I imagine that just about everybody identified as having taken part in abuse had the opportunity to act out sexually with partners who not only were age appropriate and congruent to their adult sexual orientation, but consenting as well. They, largely because of other mental health issues and often fueled by alcohol and/or drugs, chose not to and acted out sexually by victimizing those most readily available and least likely to report it ...
Yes, they "chose not to".

Despite all possible circumstances, it all comes down to a choice.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#125 Jun 23, 2013
Joe DeCaro wrote:
Yes, they "chose not to".
Despite all possible circumstances, it all comes down to a choice.
Congratulations on your epiphany, but I'm not entirely certain you have a point.

“... truth will out.”

Since: May 08

Stratford, Connecticut.

#126 Jun 23, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>
Congratulations on your epiphany ...
... I thought it was your epiphany.

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