Catholic Church Waging War on Women and Gays

[June VanDerMark]

So if Bitner has faith that gods create evil, then she must also include that her goddess could be of the nature of evil, as were those old pagan deities.

I don't think Starhawk or Kathwynn would agree.

It's not "new age"-religion to worship evil gods or goddesses.

That only fits the old warn-out Abrahamic religions.

The new faddish-gods are loving entities, and you'd better "believe it."

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

And now I understand from study that Wiccans DO proselytize, and I percieve that if they got power over others, they would be just as mean as any other group of religious know-it-alls.
I didn't agree with DayStorm's religious nonsense, but I comprehend that HE believes it, and was honest in his certainty that if he didn't rebuke "sinners" we would all burn in hell.
The way I perceive the issue is, if Bitner had her way, she wouldn't care to learn "why" DayStorm believes what he believes, but simply (if she could) would silence DayStorm and gleefully carry on preaching about the tolerance of Wiccans.

And you'd be completely wrong. Wiccans do not proseltyze, I already know why Daystorm posts what he does, have no desire to silence him, and I do not preach. Challenging your lies and twists is not preaching.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
Of course you will be certain to find other meanings that suit you, but I believe that divine does not include a god that would create evil.
a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto.
b. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball.
4. Heavenly; perfect.
n.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/divine

How typically dishonest of you to leave off the very first definition your own source gives;

"a. Having the nature of or being a deity."

All Gods are, by definition, divine. Deal with it.

[June VanDerMark]

Those in the Abrahamic religions are having real problems. They originally created their gods as nasty beings that would punish, and it's tough when you're continually in the limelight to morph nasty gods into loving gods.

The modern Pagans faded out through history, so when they came back on the religious scene with their loving gods, most people hadn't studied the old Pagan gods to comprehend that (according to the human authors) the old gods demanded animal and human sacrifices to appease the gods' blood-lust natures.

But I DID study those old Pagan gods, and they were NOT all fluff and candy as the modern Pagans such as Wiccans teach is the case.

Shysters come in all shades of grey, and are not loaded with light as they would like people to believe.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

So if Bitner has faith that gods create evil, then she must also include that her goddess could be of the nature of evil, as were those old pagan deities.
I don't think Starhawk or Kathwynn would agree.
It's not "new age"-religion to worship evil gods or goddesses.
That only fits the old warn-out Abrahamic religions.
The new faddish-gods are loving entities, and you'd better "believe it."

The Gods created everything. "Evil" is merely a human perception of the negative that affects us personally. There are no "evil" Gods in that case, as the Gods encompass all. There is no doubt in my mind that both Kathwyn and Starhawk would agree with that assessment. But if you don't believe that, the next time you see them, you can ask them.

[June VanDerMark]

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
And you'd be completely wrong. Wiccans do not proseltyze,

YES ... they DO! I know one personally that proselytzes and I have brought up many on forums that admit they had Wiccan friends who encouraged them to read literature and come to Wiccan get-togethers.

I understand you adhere to your cult Bitner, but lying is not prophet-able.

[June VanDerMark]

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
The Gods created everything. "Evil" is merely a human perception of the negative that affects us personally. There are no "evil" Gods in that case, as the Gods encompass all. There is no doubt in my mind that both Kathwyn and Starhawk would agree with that assessment. But if you don't believe that, the next time you see them, you can ask them.

Gods ARE human perceptions, and through imagination, humans created the natures of the gods.

[June VanDerMark]

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
How typically dishonest of you to leave off the very first definition your own source gives;
"a. Having the nature of or being a deity."
All Gods are, by definition, divine. Deal with it.

Words have meaning ... stated Bitner!
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>

The Use and Misuse of Language … edited by S. I. Hayakawa.

General semanticists know it is hard to make the average person realize that he brings meaning to the word, that the word does not contain any meaning.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

Those in the Abrahamic religions are having real problems. They originally created their gods as nasty beings that would punish, and it's tough when you're continually in the limelight to morph nasty gods into loving gods.
The modern Pagans faded out through history, so when they came back on the religious scene with their loving gods, most people hadn't studied the old Pagan gods to comprehend that (according to the human authors) the old gods demanded animal and human sacrifices to appease the gods' blood-lust natures.
But I DID study those old Pagan gods, and they were NOT all fluff and candy as the modern Pagans such as Wiccans teach is the case.
Shysters come in all shades of grey, and are not loaded with light as they would like people to believe.

Your dishonesty is showing again.

One, MANY people had already studied ancient Pagan religions, or YOU couldn't have found any information on them.

Two, you are taking Wicca, and applying it to ALL modern Pagan religions. Not all modern Pagans are Wiccan, and many of them do not follow or teach what Wicca teaches. Nor does Wicca teach that the ancient Pagan Gods were "all fluff and candy". Some Wiccans might think so, but that is not a teaching of Wicca. Apparenlty your "study" of "modern Pagan religions" is woefully incomplete.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
YES ... they DO! I know one personally that proselytzes and I have brought up many on forums that admit they had Wiccan friends who encouraged them to read literature and come to Wiccan get-togethers.
I understand you adhere to your cult Bitner, but lying is not prophet-able.

I doubt any Wiccan would put up with your nonsense long enough to remain friends with you.

Still, answering questions, or telling someone where to find out information is not proselytizing. You want to pretend that Wiccans just do this out of the blue, without someone asking first. As I said, Wiccans don't seek converts, people find Wicca.

I am not lying.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
Gods ARE human perceptions, and through imagination, humans created the natures of the gods.

You're deflecting again.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
Words have meaning ... stated Bitner!
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>
The Use and Misuse of Language … edited by S. I. Hayakawa.
General semanticists know it is hard to make the average person realize that he brings meaning to the word, that the word does not contain any meaning.

Yes, words have meanings. And YOU ignored the very first meaning deliberately to try to prove me wrong. It shows your basic dishonesty, and backfired on you, but that's not my problem.

The Gods are, by definition, divine.

[June VanDerMark]

Bitner's preference is to use the term divine in THIS context.

a. Having the nature of or being a deity.

But the natures of the deities is the context that indicates whether they are divine or cruel.

RIGHT Bitner???

Bitner is a master at word-trickery.

That's why she enjoys being a witch.

[June VanDerMark]

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
I doubt any Wiccan would put up with your nonsense long enough to remain friends with you.

We got along just fine until I studied the old and the new Pagan religions and since then "every one" of your posts to me (barring none) have been filled with venom.

That is how I came to understand that Wiccans are just mortal selfish humans as are the rest of us.

[June VanDerMark]

Bitner wrote:

<quoted text>
I doubt any Wiccan would put up with your nonsense long enough to remain friends with you.
Still, answering questions, or telling someone where to find out information is not proselytizing. You want to pretend that Wiccans just do this out of the blue, without someone asking first. As I said, Wiccans don't seek converts, people find Wicca.
I am not lying.

This is proselytizing
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >

Gerald B. Gardner … Witchcraft Today … 2004.

The Wiccan Future: A Campus Viewpoint by Tara Nelsen

I was recently invited to speak about Wicca and Paganism at a local high school class on ethics and religious diversity. This town is a small community, deep in the Bible Belt. The class was created in response to a community-wide controversy surrounding the posting of the Ten Commandments inside the public school. I felt it was an opportunity to tell local youth the truth about Paganism and to express the fact that there are many different religious beliefs held in their own community.

“How many of you had heard of Wicca or Paganism before taking this class?” I watched in amazement as more than half the class raised their hands. It wasn’t like this when I started on my path. This particular community was not only predominantly Christian but very fundamentalist and right-wing beliefs. These students were raised to be very closed-minded and had less than average exposure to the diversity of the world. That was my presumption. Over the years, something has changed.

[June VanDerMark]

Gerald Gardner implied that the witches like to be secret, but that is silly nonsense.

Those who are proud of their religion want to share it with others.

There's no question about that!

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

Bitner's preference is to use the term divine in THIS context.
a. Having the nature of or being a deity.
But the natures of the deities is the context that indicates whether they are divine or cruel.
RIGHT Bitner???
Bitner is a master at word-trickery.
That's why she enjoys being a witch.

Wrong again. There was no trickery on my part. That was YOU deliberately leaving off the very first definition that your own source gave, because it proved my statement right.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

<quoted text>
This is proselytizing
>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >
Gerald B. Gardner … Witchcraft Today … 2004.
The Wiccan Future: A Campus Viewpoint by Tara Nelsen
I was recently invited to speak about Wicca and Paganism at a local high school class on ethics and religious diversity. This town is a small community, deep in the Bible Belt. The class was created in response to a community-wide controversy surrounding the posting of the Ten Commandments inside the public school. I felt it was an opportunity to tell local youth the truth about Paganism and to express the fact that there are many different religious beliefs held in their own community.
“How many of you had heard of Wicca or Paganism before taking this class?” I watched in amazement as more than half the class raised their hands. It wasn’t like this when I started on my path. This particular community was not only predominantly Christian but very fundamentalist and right-wing beliefs. These students were raised to be very closed-minded and had less than average exposure to the diversity of the world. That was my presumption. Over the years, something has changed.

LOL, you DO realize that you just proved my point, right?

She was ASKED to come speak by the community, and half of the student body had ALREADY heard of Wicca.

[June VanDerMark]

When parents indoctrinate their children to Wicca ... THAT is also proselytizing.

[Bitner]

June VanDerMark wrote:

Gerald Gardner implied that the witches like to be secret, but that is silly nonsense.
Those who are proud of their religion want to share it with others.
There's no question about that!

Gardner was referring to the witches who came before him.

Again, Wiccans don't seek converts, people seek Wicca. Answering the questions of those who are asking, is not proseltyzing. It is not an attempt to convert.