Mormon church pleased with Boy Scouts...

Mormon church pleased with Boy Scouts proposal to lift ban on gay youth

There are 38 comments on the Detroit News story from Apr 25, 2013, titled Mormon church pleased with Boy Scouts proposal to lift ban on gay youth. In it, Detroit News reports that:

The Mormon church has given its blessing to the Boy Scouts of America on its latest proposal to lift the gay ban for youth members but continue to exclude gays as adult leaders.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Detroit News.

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“God made in the image of man”

Since: May 07

Sausalito, CA

#21 Apr 26, 2013
I should know better than to write at the end of a long day. Pedophilia is, of course, a disorder characterized by a SEXUAL interest in prepubescent children -- I was thinking of rape when I wrote the above.

However ... I stand by the statement that most male pedophiles are heterosexual, regardless of which gender they abuse. You could cite the example of Catholic priests who are not married nor have children, but neither do they have a history of adult homosexual relationships, so there is clearly a DISORDER there. Normal homosexuals who are out of the closet and engage in adult same-sex relationships do not fit the profile of proven pedophiles.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#22 Apr 27, 2013
Umninimuzi wrote:
<quoted text>
There seems little point in debating you on the subject, because regardless of what I say you have already pronounced me "shallow" with "warped pathetic ignorant thoughts". Nevertheless, I shall take the bait and respond.
You might have had a point about adults not being permitted to supervise opposite sex children, but I was discussing -- the BOYS Scouts. To my knowledge there are no girls in the BSA. so your argument is moot.
Your explanation that "crimes against children have shown that homosexual adults target same sex children more than opposite sex adults and, heterosexual adults target opposite sex children more than homosexual adults" is NOT based in fact. Go check your facts. You assume that pedophilia is a sexual crime, when in fact it is a crime of control and power. The statistics show that most adult males who abuse little boys have NO history of homosexuality, but are usually married with children. That is a fact.
Now you will probably protest that that one act proves that such an adult pedophile is covertly gay. But then if we were to apply the same reason to homosexuals you would also have to conclude that a known homosexual who has sex with a woman once is in fact a covert heterosexual -- which is absurd. So which is it to be?
I'd be happy to debate this matter further with you, but if you resort to personal insults and ridicule instead of facts and reason I will not even bother to respond. Your call.
Your actual statement was...
"After all the damage the Mormon Church has done I don't trust the bastards even when they pretend to compromise. It's got to be a devious strategy intended to harm us in some way. In any case, by supporting this move they prove that they consider all adult homosexuals to be pedophiles."
This statement that you made didn't pertain to 'just' the BSA...
"In any case, by supporting this move they prove that they consider all adult homosexuals to be pedophiles."...it encompassed more than the BSA setting.
A real true homosexual doesn't, I repeat doesn't find sexual attraction in the opposite sex.
A real true heterosexual doesn't, I repeat doesn't find sexual attraction in the same sex.
A real true homosexual is attracted to the same sex for sex.
A real true heterosexual is attracted to the opposite sex for sex.
Now a bisexual is attracted to either sex for sex.
Men that go after young girls are usually bisexual or heterosexual, not homosexual.
Men that go after young boys are usually bisexual or homosexual, not heterosexual.
And the Mormon church goes to great lengths to separate adults in leadership positions from being alone with a youth regardless of sex or sexual orientation of the adult be it known or unknown.
So while that church does have bias/prejudice against homosexuality, they discriminate against all adults in leadership positions from being alone with a youth very evenly.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#23 Apr 27, 2013
Umninimuzi wrote:
I should know better than to write at the end of a long day. Pedophilia is, of course, a disorder characterized by a SEXUAL interest in prepubescent children -- I was thinking of rape when I wrote the above.
However ... I stand by the statement that most male pedophiles are heterosexual, regardless of which gender they abuse. You could cite the example of Catholic priests who are not married nor have children, but neither do they have a history of adult homosexual relationships, so there is clearly a DISORDER there. Normal homosexuals who are out of the closet and engage in adult same-sex relationships do not fit the profile of proven pedophiles.
Concerning priests and kids, it's more than a disorder. Older people have been attracted to youth for thousands of years. Older people were attracted to youth 2000 years ago and such relationships were very legal in many instances in many societies. Marriage between old and young was a preferred tradition for economic/financial and or political reasons.
Priests are humans.
With the exception to asexuals, every human is born growing up to understand 'whom' their sexually attracted to.
For people in leadership positions, it seems they find it easier to convince a youth into having sex than it is to convince another adult into having sex.
You can try and prove any theory you wish to prove to show homosexuals don't victimize youth as much as bisexuals or heterosexuals. But you won't do it rationally.
A heterosexual attracted to the opposite sex doesn't wake one day and decide to have same sex with an adult or a youth of the same sex. It doesn't happen that way.
A person that is attracted to both sexes or one specific sex, single or married, virgin or not a virgin, they are the one that will seek out whom they're attracted to for sex be it an adult or a youth.
This erroneous thinking that a staunch heterosexual wakes up one day and feels a need or want to have sex with a person of the same sex is erroneous thinking.
Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex.
Heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex.
Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes.
The difference being is a bisexual is called what they really aren't at times to fit a need for an explanation for the behaviour.
The heterosexual that has sexually victimized the same sex is probably not a real heterosexual if they can find sexual gratification in the same sex.
As like wise...
The homosexual that has sexually victimized the opposite sex is probably not a real homosexual if they can find sexual gratification in the opposite sex.

“God made in the image of man”

Since: May 07

Sausalito, CA

#24 Apr 27, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Concerning priests and kids, it's more than a disorder. Older people have been attracted to youth for thousands of years. Older people were attracted to youth 2000 years ago and such relationships were very legal in many instances in many societies. Marriage between old and young was a preferred tradition for economic/financial and or political reasons.
Priests are humans.
With the exception to asexuals, every human is born growing up to understand 'whom' their sexually attracted to.
For people in leadership positions, it seems they find it easier to convince a youth into having sex than it is to convince another adult into having sex.
You can try and prove any theory you wish to prove to show homosexuals don't victimize youth as much as bisexuals or heterosexuals. But you won't do it rationally.
A heterosexual attracted to the opposite sex doesn't wake one day and decide to have same sex with an adult or a youth of the same sex. It doesn't happen that way.
A person that is attracted to both sexes or one specific sex, single or married, virgin or not a virgin, they are the one that will seek out whom they're attracted to for sex be it an adult or a youth.
This erroneous thinking that a staunch heterosexual wakes up one day and feels a need or want to have sex with a person of the same sex is erroneous thinking.
Homosexuals are attracted to the same sex.
Heterosexuals are attracted to the opposite sex.
Bisexuals are attracted to both sexes.
The difference being is a bisexual is called what they really aren't at times to fit a need for an explanation for the behaviour.
The heterosexual that has sexually victimized the same sex is probably not a real heterosexual if they can find sexual gratification in the same sex.
As like wise...
The homosexual that has sexually victimized the opposite sex is probably not a real homosexual if they can find sexual gratification in the opposite sex.
Ok, that's a good start! You have some very definite opinions on a wide range of topics pertaining to sexuality. Now prove to me that they are more than just your own private opinions. To convince me, you would have to cite what experts in this field have published in scientific data.

Aye ... there's the rub! Because I'm ready to quote from authoritative studies published in recognized scientific journals. My personal opinion (or yours) matter little. It's the facts we need, supported by accurate science. That's the problem with many religions -- they reject Science in favor of their own opinions based on ...(what?)

And by the way, I was NOT referring to the Mormon Church's policies on supervising boys, but on their support for the Boys Scouts' recent policy change. Now the BSA obviously doesn't believe in having opposite gender supervisors, so the Mormon Church must have recognized the BSA's real motive in excluding adult homosexuals -- and that was my point. I have no interest in discussing the Mormon Church's policies on adult supervision -- that is off the topic.
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

#25 Apr 27, 2013
Separation of church and scouts will solve the problem

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#26 Apr 27, 2013
Umninimuzi wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, that's a good start! You have some very definite opinions on a wide range of topics pertaining to sexuality. Now prove to me that they are more than just your own private opinions. To convince me, you would have to cite what experts in this field have published in scientific data.
Aye ... there's the rub! Because I'm ready to quote from authoritative studies published in recognized scientific journals. My personal opinion (or yours) matter little. It's the facts we need, supported by accurate science. That's the problem with many religions -- they reject Science in favor of their own opinions based on ...(what?)
And by the way, I was NOT referring to the Mormon Church's policies on supervising boys, but on their support for the Boys Scouts' recent policy change. Now the BSA obviously doesn't believe in having opposite gender supervisors, so the Mormon Church must have recognized the BSA's real motive in excluding adult homosexuals -- and that was my point. I have no interest in discussing the Mormon Church's policies on adult supervision -- that is off the topic.
Concerning the BSA and Mormon policy on homosexual BSA leaders we don't disagree on anything that I see.
I think that the BSA and Mormons accepting boys as they are regardless of what their sexual orientation is, is a step in the direction they use to take. The only difference is that if a boy declares he's homosexual now, he won't be ousted. Before no matter what your sexual orientation was as long as you kept quiet you were a scout. I remember 40 years ago to be hetero and to have a girl friend meant getting teased a lot. Most hetero kids wouldn't say a thing about having a girl friend. So sexual orientations weren't discussed and oe admitted to very often for self preservation. The change now is that you can freely state your sexual attraction without problems because bullying and teasing are very frowned upon.
Concerning the other topic, I see problems. I recognize things not discussed because people like absolutes for answers. They don't like half unanswered questions so consider the following.
We have two minorities where a person is explicitly attracted sexually and romantically to one sex and never the other sex.
We have a larger minority where people are attracted to both sexes sexually and romantically fairly evenly.
We now have two remaining groups that make up the largest part of our populations.
One group are those claiming to be heterosexual who are romantically attracted to just the opposite sex but they can find sexual gratification with both sexes.
The other group are those claiming to be homosexuals who are romantically attracted to the same sex but they can find sexual gratification with both sexes.
So the lines for what a person is by definition of sexual orientation can be very clouded and obscured unless a total honest factual account of their sexual and romantic history can be accounted for.
I have had many friends that were romantically attracted to a specific gender and never the other gender. But loosened up with liquor and or drugs and they'd bed either sex for sexual gratification. Would you term a person like that a bisexual? Remember sexual orientations are usually defined by whom a person is attracted to sexually and romantically, not by one or the other.
Than we have the quagmire of considerations of the transgendered.
Stats and facts are good and well. But science (outside of unestablished/proven theories)like to deal in absolutes. If there is no evidence, it can't examine it and therefore it doesn't exist.
Science declares a person isn't able to change their sexual orientation. They claim that because they have no evidence it's been done. So that doesn't mean people haven't changed their sexual orientation.
Men of knowledge(science)once claimed the earth was flat till it was finally proven it wasn't flat.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27 Apr 27, 2013
Rainbow Kid wrote:
Separation of church and scouts will solve the problem
You're working a real fantasy that will never happen huh. Nice to be hopeful :)
Rainbow Kid

Alpharetta, GA

#28 Apr 27, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Concerning the BSA and Mormon policy on homosexual BSA leaders we don't disagree on anything that I see.
I think that the BSA and Mormons accepting boys as they are regardless of what their sexual orientation is, is a step in the direction they use to take. The only difference is that if a boy declares he's homosexual now, he won't be ousted. Before no matter what your sexual orientation was as long as you kept quiet you were a scout. I remember 40 years ago to be hetero and to have a girl friend meant getting teased a lot. Most hetero kids wouldn't say a thing about having a girl friend. So sexual orientations weren't discussed and oe admitted to very often for self preservation. The change now is that you can freely state your sexual attraction without problems because bullying and teasing are very frowned upon.
Concerning the other topic, I see problems. I recognize things not discussed because people like absolutes for answers. They don't like half unanswered questions so consider the following.
We have two minorities where a person is explicitly attracted sexually and romantically to one sex and never the other sex.
We have a larger minority where people are attracted to both sexes sexually and romantically fairly evenly.
We now have two remaining groups that make up the largest part of our populations.
One group are those claiming to be heterosexual who are romantically attracted to just the opposite sex but they can find sexual gratification with both sexes.
The other group are those claiming to be homosexuals who are romantically attracted to the same sex but they can find sexual gratification with both sexes.
So the lines for what a person is by definition of sexual orientation can be very clouded and obscured unless a total honest factual account of their sexual and romantic history can be accounted for.
I have had many friends that were romantically attracted to a specific gender and never the other gender. But loosened up with liquor and or drugs and they'd bed either sex for sexual gratification. Would you term a person like that a bisexual? Remember sexual orientations are usually defined by whom a person is attracted to sexually and romantically, not by one or the other.
Than we have the quagmire of considerations of the transgendered.
Stats and facts are good and well. But science (outside of unestablished/proven theories)like to deal in absolutes. If there is no evidence, it can't examine it and therefore it doesn't exist.
Science declares a person isn't able to change their sexual orientation. They claim that because they have no evidence it's been done. So that doesn't mean people haven't changed their sexual orientation.
Men of knowledge(science)once claimed the earth was flat till it was finally proven it wasn't flat.
No ma'am
.
a. An observer cannot determine a woman's sexual orientation by the things she does because a woman can fake orgasm
.
b. The earth was flat until GOD flooded it to soften it up so he could wad it up into a ball
.
After the waters subsided GOD displayed a rainbow for the first time to show off the new improved round earth (A rainbow is only possible over a curved surface)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#29 Apr 27, 2013
Rainbow Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
No ma'am
.
a. An observer cannot determine a woman's sexual orientation by the things she does because a woman can fake orgasm
.
b. The earth was flat until GOD flooded it to soften it up so he could wad it up into a ball
.
After the waters subsided GOD displayed a rainbow for the first time to show off the new improved round earth (A rainbow is only possible over a curved surface)
You said...
Separation of church and scouts will solve the problem
I said...
You're working a real fantasy that will never happen huh. Nice to be hopeful :)

Stick with the conversation if you can?

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#30 Apr 27, 2013
Rainbow Kid wrote:
<quoted text>
No ma'am
.
a. An observer cannot determine a woman's sexual orientation by the things she does because a woman can fake orgasm
.
b. The earth was flat until GOD flooded it to soften it up so he could wad it up into a ball
.
(A rainbow is only possible over a curved surface)
A. Your fantasy

B. Your fantasy

C. You're wrong.

“God made in the image of man”

Since: May 07

Sausalito, CA

#31 Apr 28, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Concerning the BSA and Mormon policy on homosexual BSA leaders we don't disagree on anything that I see....
Concerning the other topic, I see problems....
We now have two remaining groups that make up the largest part of our populations....
I have had many friends that were romantically attracted to a specific gender and never the other gender. But loosened up with liquor and or drugs and they'd bed either sex for sexual gratification. Would you term a person like that a bisexual? Remember sexual orientations are usually defined by whom a person is attracted to sexually and romantically, not by one or the other.
Than we have the quagmire of considerations of the transgendered.
Stats and facts are good and well. But science (outside of unestablished/proven theories)like to deal in absolutes. If there is no evidence, it can't examine it and therefore it doesn't exist.
Science declares a person isn't able to change their sexual orientation. They claim that because they have no evidence it's been done. So that doesn't mean people haven't changed their sexual orientation.
Men of knowledge(science)once claimed the earth was flat till it was finally proven it wasn't flat.
A good discussion! We're in agreement on everything till we get to the last two paragraphs. As I recall, it was Galileo, a scientist, who first declared that the universe was not heliocentric, not geocentric, based on what he observed through a telescope. Science. Religionists, specifically the Catholic Church, fought him on that and even sought to execute him for it. Provable facts won the day. It is true that Scientists have had to alter their position on many subjects over time, but that is all we have to base any conclusions on, and adjusting to the latest discoveries is the best approach.
Now, how does that apply to the topic at hand? Statistics show that pedophiles (i.e. adults who harbor secret sexual fantasies about prepubescent children, are almost NEVER self-confessed homosexuals with a history of adult same-sex relationships. That is a proven fact -- you can dispute it if you like with suitable proof. Invariably pedophiles profess celibacy or are in heterosexual marriages. So a normal open homosexual who has a history of adult relationships does NOT fit the profile of a pedophile, period.
Secondly, the historic examples you cited are NOT of pedophiles. Yes, throughout history -- specifically Greek and Roman history -- there have been adult men who preferred younger men or adolescents in addition to the heterosexual wives to whom they were married. That is NOT pedophilia, and is not classified as a disorder. Some cases are classified as pederasty, which is a separate topic that we can debate in another discussion. Such men are not secretive about it, as pedophiles are, because in many countries it is not illegal -- I can cite numerous countries where the legal age for sex is 16 for either gender. I am not suggesting that I am necessarily in favor of such asymmetrical relationships, merely that they are not considered a disorder per se, just another sexual proclivity such as sado-maschism.
Besides pedophilia and pederasty, there are a number of additional 'disorder' profiles that psychiatrists enumerate, none of which fit the typical homosexual who is in an equal adult relationship, so excluding them from an organization on the basis of an assumption that they will harm little boys is uncalled for -- in fact it is a lie and a grave insult to homosexuals everywhere. Why is it that an inordinate number of school teachers are homosexual, and yet you don't hear outcries from parents that their children are being abused in school. On the sportsfield, yes, there it does occur, often by coaches who are married with children and NO history of adult homosexual relationships!(Need I cite examples??)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32 Apr 28, 2013
Umninimuzi wrote:
Now, how does that apply to the topic at hand? Statistics show that pedophiles (i.e. adults who harbor secret sexual fantasies about prepubescent children, are almost NEVER self-confessed homosexuals with a history of adult same-sex relationships. That is a proven fact -- you can dispute it if you like with suitable proof. Invariably pedophiles profess celibacy or are in heterosexual marriages. So a normal open homosexual who has a history of adult relationships does NOT fit the profile of a pedophile, period.
This I will agree with..."..pedophiles (i.e. adults who harbor secret sexual fantasies about prepubescent children, are almost NEVER self-confessed homosexuals.."
With that said consider the following fact...
How many "out of the closet" homosexuals stating they lived life a lie as a heterosexual for years to decades have you met and or read of? These type individuals are a HUGE percentage of homosexuals from the lied about hetero marriage they claim they endured out of fear of revealing the real them sexually.
In Topix threads and on the web and in the news I have read experience after experience of person after person (and what I call converts to homosexuality) of claiming they grew tired of living a lie and left their wife/husband or family and or left wife/husband after kids were grown.
Now how many of these so called 'heterosexual males' in these opposite sex relationships who target just boys, who isn't to say and prove this predator really wasn't a homosexual all along waiting for their moment to "escape" their lie of a life as a heterosexual while they sought out young boys?
It's a bit of a contradiction all the way around mentally/psychologically for a male heterosexsual to target male victims. That's like trying to convince someone that dogs really are in heat for cats but the difference in sizes causes them to seek out other dogs. That's like trying to get everyone to call everything a rainbow of colours because the colour of an item you see really isn't there. That's like trying to prove homosexuals exist because they're scared to have children so they turn to the same sex as a preventive measure.
A real authentic heterosexual would turn to the same sex for a victim if the opposite sex wasn't handy. And most heterosexuals seeking out victims wait till they find a victim of the opposite sex.
A bisexual will seek out victims of either sex.
A real authentic homosexual would seek out same sex victims. They might seek out opposite sex victims as a heterosexual might if they felt they HAD to have sexual gratification of any kind.
But that is a weak argument because if a true hetero or a true homo sought out the sex they weren't attracted to for relief and sustained relief, that would classify them in the bisexual category.
There are people who think they know their real sexual orientation and later in life declare they were wrong switching sexual orientations and never go back. What of them?
These hetero males that think their hetero and claim to enjoy hetero sex that seek males for victims for gratification, that's the action of a bisexual or a homosexual, not an actual heterosexual.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#33 Apr 28, 2013
Umninimuzi wrote:
Besides pedophilia and pederasty, there are a number of additional 'disorder' profiles that psychiatrists enumerate, none of which fit the typical homosexual who is in an equal adult relationship, so excluding them from an organization on the basis of an assumption that they will harm little boys is uncalled for -- in fact it is a lie and a grave insult to homosexuals everywhere. Why is it that an inordinate number of school teachers are homosexual, and yet you don't hear outcries from parents that their children are being abused in school. On the sportsfield, yes, there it does occur, often by coaches who are married with children and NO history of adult homosexual relationships!(Need I cite examples??)
I agree about excluding gay adult males from the BSA. Adult gay and bisexual males have been leaders in the BSA since the first decade of it's existence I would bet. The BSA like the military at one time just had a don't tell and we won't ask policy.
In schools, most teachers mind their ps and qs of seeking their children they teach for sexual gratification merely on the point that children don't know how to keep a secret and they like to brag.
Consider this. How many web articles can you find that state a male known heterosexual teacher victimized a same sex boy? Now how many web articles will you find of a homosexual male teacher victimized an opposite sex girl?
The question remains is the 'claimed' married heterosexual male teacher that victimized a boy a real heterosexual male? Or is he a bisexual or a homosexual and isn't aware of it yet?
Now on the other side of the coin, we can find females in herosexual marriages that victimize boys, but next to never a girl.
So how does a true heterosexual female manage to victimize males that she is attracted to but, a 'so called' true heterosexual male can't do the same thing, victimizing boys instead when his true attraction is to females? How would you begin to define that difference? You don't.
Whether a person truly understands their sexual orientation or they really don't, a true hetero goes after the opposite sex, a true homo goes after the same sex and a true bi goes after both sexes.
So if a non-married male or a married male in a heterosexual relationship seeks same sex victims, they are bi or homo, not a true hetero.
You won't find a true honest to goodness heterosexual that enjoys sexual gratification with the same sex. That is a homosexual or a bisexual.
Just as you won't find a true honest to goodness homosexual that enjoys sexual gratification with the opposite sex. That is a heterosexual or a bisexual.
If you want to try and convince me that a true heterosexual will preference the same sex for victims in sexual gratification, you'll fare better trying to show me you can make paint stick to the invisible micro particles of the upper atmosphere so it'll remain painted like a wall.

“God made in the image of man”

Since: May 07

Sausalito, CA

#34 Apr 29, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree about excluding gay adult males from the BSA. Adult gay and bisexual males have been leaders in the BSA since the first decade of it's existence I would bet. The BSA like the military at one time just had a don't tell and we won't ask policy.
In schools, most teachers mind their ps and qs of seeking their children they teach for sexual gratification merely on the point that children don't know how to keep a secret and they like to brag.
Consider this....
I am pleased that we got past the initial hick-ups, because this is turning into an excellent discussion, and you raise some very fine points! I am starting to realize that a lot more research probably needs to be done on these topics before we can arrive at accurate conclusions. I regret that I cannot cite all of what you said in the previous post as a frame of reference, but one point in particular resonated with me: the fact that many males who are married for years with children are deep in the closet, so it is impossible to tell whether they are true heterosexuals or closeted homosexuals. Good point.

I assume you are heterosexual, No Surprise, but I do not know that for a fact. But what I am starting to realize is that both of us probably come from the perspective of normal, well adjusted representatives of our sexual orientations. Speaking for myself, I can tell you that I was one of those -- married to a woman for years, with children, but unable to come out due to the deeply homophobic society in which I was raised. But I can tell you this: I was in a position to educate young boys and derived a great deal of gratification from the results, but I would rather die than EVER harm any of them. I can tell you truthfully that as a homosexual I harbored NO sexual fantasies whatsoever about any or them. It was as inconceivable for me as it would be for you as a normal heterosexual male to consider putting the moves on a little girl! So if you are clear on your own position, trust me that my position was NO different, and I happen to know that for my homosexual friends it would also be inconceivable!

So ... we are clearly dealing with a DISORDER, which is difficult for both of us to comprehend. Try to put yourself into the mind of a serial heterosexual rapist or serial killer. Most of them are male, which may explain why most of the pedophiles are male (which speaks to your question as to why female teachers seldom abuse girls). It would seem that such types of disorders are predominant among males. But beyond that basic fact, I think you'll find it equally hard to explain or even imagine what goes on in the mind of such a monster. There are clearly very deep-seated disturbances going on in the mind of a man who can excuse himself for hurting a string of little 5-year old boys or girls! Yes, admittedly, the male pedophiles who fantasize about boys may have 'homosexual' fantasies as such, but I think you will acknowledge that this is WAY beyond anything that can be attributed to normal homosexuality! Such disorders go so deep into the psyche that I don't think such men even understand it themselves, which is why they so desperately need to hide in institutions where they do not have to explain their bizarre behavior to anyone.

But please, people ... PLEASE ... can we stop blaming it on homosexuality? We are as horrified as the rest of society by the priests and the coaches etc, and struggle as much as the rest of you to understand the motivation. We have all had our struggles to become accepted as normal human beings in society, and I can assure you that THIS is not normal homosexual behavior.

“God made in the image of man”

Since: May 07

Sausalito, CA

#35 Apr 29, 2013
I am pleased that we got past the initial hick-ups, because this is turning into an excellent discussion, and you raise some very fine points! I am starting to realize that a lot more research probably needs to be done on these topics before we can arrive at accurate conclusions. I regret that I cannot cite all of what you said in the previous post as a frame of reference, but one point in particular resonated with me: the fact that many males who are married for years with children are deep in the closet, so it is impossible to tell whether they are true heterosexuals or closeted homosexuals. Good point.

I assume you are heterosexual, No Surprise, but I do not know that for a fact. But what I am starting to realize is that both of us probably come from the perspective of normal, well adjusted representatives of our sexual orientations. Speaking for myself, I can tell you that I was one of those -- married to a woman for years, with children, but unable to come out due to the deeply homophobic society in which I was raised. But I can tell you this: I was in a position to educate young boys and derived a great deal of gratification from the results, but I would rather die than EVER harm any of them. I can tell you truthfully that as a homosexual I harbored NO sexual fantasies whatsoever about any or them. It was as inconceivable for me as it would be for you as a normal heterosexual male to consider putting the moves on a little girl! So if you are clear on your own position, trust me that my position was NO different, and I happen to know that for my homosexual friends it would also be inconceivable!

So ... we are clearly dealing with a DISORDER, which is difficult for both of us to comprehend. Try to put yourself into the mind of a serial heterosexual rapist or serial killer. Most of them are male, which may explain why most of the pedophiles are male (which speaks to your question as to why female teachers seldom abuse girls). It would seem that such types of disorders are predominant among males. But beyond that basic fact, I think you'll find it equally hard to explain or even imagine what goes on in the mind of such a monster. There are clearly very deep-seated disturbances going on in the mind of a man who can excuse himself for hurting a string of little 5-year old boys or girls! Yes, admittedly, the male pedophiles who fantasize about boys may have 'homosexual' fantasies as such, but I think you will acknowledge that this is WAY beyond anything that can be attributed to normal homosexuality! Such disorders go so deep into the psyche that I don't think such men even understand it themselves, which is why they so desperately need to hide in institutions where they do not have to explain their bizarre behavior to anyone.

But please, people ... PLEASE ... can we stop blaming it on homosexuality? We are as horrified as the rest of society by the priests and the coaches etc, and struggle as much as the rest of you to understand the motivation. We have all had our struggles to become accepted as normal human beings in society, and I can assure you that THIS is not normal homosexual behavior.

“God made in the image of man”

Since: May 07

Sausalito, CA

#36 Apr 29, 2013
(Apologies for repeating such a long post, but sometimes it doesn't show up immediately and one thinks it has been lost.)

I know one pedophile personally -- he was a childhood acquaintance, several years younger than myself as we grew up. But I was shocked, SHOCKED! when I learned recently that he had been arrested, because even with my finely-tuned gaydar I never had the faintest idea that he had such leanings. We never saw him as a homosexual, he dated girls and eventually married and raised a family, but never gave the slightest hint, not even when we were both adults and I was out as a homosexual. I always saw him as just a normal straight man -- till the evidence starting emerging about case after case in which he had molested young prepubescent boys ...

Clearly, a lot more research needs to be done.
Rosa Winkel

Sydney, Australia

#37 Apr 30, 2013
How would they feel about polygamists being members of the Boy Scouts? Considering the Mormon church's history here...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#38 Apr 30, 2013
Umninimuzi wrote:
I am pleased that we got past the initial hick-ups, because this is turning into an excellent discussion, and you raise some very fine points! I am starting to realize that a lot more research probably needs to be done on these topics before we can arrive at accurate conclusions. I regret that I cannot cite all of what you said in the previous post as a frame of reference, but one point in particular resonated with me: the fact that many males who are married for years with children are deep in the closet, so it is impossible to tell whether they are true heterosexuals or closeted homosexuals. Good point.
I assume you are heterosexual, No Surprise, but I do not know that for a fact. But what I am starting to realize is that both of us probably come from the perspective of normal, well adjusted representatives of our sexual orientations. Speaking for myself, I can tell you that I was one of those -- married to a woman for years, with children, but unable to come out due to the deeply homophobic society in which I was raised. But I can tell you this: I was in a position to educate young boys and derived a great deal of gratification from the results, but I would rather die than EVER harm any of them. I can tell you truthfully that as a homosexual I harbored NO sexual fantasies whatsoever about any or them. It was as inconceivable for me as it would be for you as a normal heterosexual male to consider putting the moves on a little girl! So if you are clear on your own position, trust me that my position was NO different, and I happen to know that for my homosexual friends it would also be inconceivable!
So ... we are clearly dealing with a DISORDER, which is difficult for both of us to comprehend. Try to put yourself into the mind of a serial heterosexual rapist or serial killer. Most of them are male, which may explain why most of the pedophiles are male (which speaks to your question as to why female teachers seldom abuse girls).
I grew up primarily being bisexual. But I am in that classification I mentioned earlier, the one of which I am ONLY romantically attracted to the opposite sex but, sexually I can seek sexual gratification with both sexes.
I agree a mental disorder exists for adults being sexually attracted to young physically immature children. The question here is where do you define an 'age' for this disorder? I say that because we have physically developed girls/females having had their first period that older adults are attracted to and in the medical field they are referred to as having a 'disorder'. We also have much older people marrying much younger people or just having relationships that society in general labels wrong/corrupt/pedos and or terms like sexually deranged because they don't have relationships with people of their age category.
If a 30/40/50 etc year old dates a 18/19/20 etc year old many people call them pedophiles even if the terminology is incorrect and even if dating anyone of legal age is legal.
For thousands of years as other animal groups, humans also came to know in their mentality more than their DNA that the earlier one copulated, the greater chance for many offspring would happen. This knowledge fostered in humans for thousands of years all over the earth.
Now in the last century we humans are trying to drive that thinking from our minds as irrational, wrong and even evil. In the last century we have been trying to rearrange thousands of years of acceptable copulating thinking that young too young and middle aged to young and old to young relationships are no longer acceptable and or necessary.
Two factors drove humans sexually, sexual arousal and the inborn need to produce offspring.
We today by law have tried to eliminate the part of our human sexuality the need for sex to produce for offspring because we are so populated. So we are now left with a new sexual human purposefully left with just sexual arousal and we are having a tough go of it.

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