Church Leaders Vow Political Backlash...

Church Leaders Vow Political Backlash if Gay Marriage Passes

There are 17556 comments on the NBC Chicago story from Jan 7, 2013, titled Church Leaders Vow Political Backlash if Gay Marriage Passes. In it, NBC Chicago reports that:

Leaders of several Chicago-area African American churches on Monday urged state lawmakers to vote against pending legislation that would allow same-sex marriage in Illinois.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at NBC Chicago.

“Equality for ALL”

Since: Jul 10

Massachusetts

#9756 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
There's also no reason why siblings, at least same sex, can be spouses, or three people can't be spouses.
I addressed the same-sex sibling issue in #9314 on 4 Sept.

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/gay/TP39MT577...

Plural marriages has also been address ad nauseum. It is not my issue. If those seeking such legal marriages wish to petition either their state legislature or the courts to seek redress, they are more than free to do so. More than two spouses would need a total revamp of the laws governing married couples however (something that did not have to happen when same-sex couples began marrying.).

The key word in all of this is SPOUSE. Not husband or wife. Did you ever find any law that treats the 'husband' or 'wife' differently?

Just because the phrase 'I now pronounce you husband and wife' is not used in same-sex marriages does not make those marriages any different or less legal than marriages that happen to use the phrase.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9757 Sep 11, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Same sex marriage creates more problems than it solves.
only on your imaginary playground. Best to learn to get along.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9758 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
There's also no reason why siblings, at least same sex, can be spouses, or three people can't be spouses.
Yes, there IS a reason. You don't like it, but it's there.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9759 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
Why stop there? Perhaps it's not one person best suited for her but two? Maybe it's her sister.

Sane people stop there because they are aware that the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy and a red herring. Every time you use it, you lose.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9760 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
"....your version of marriage"? Seriously NorCal......you must think before you type. It is or "my version", but the version of marriage nationwide until 2004, and still the version in over thirty states. But thanks for giving me the super power of defining marriage since the birth of the Republic.
It was only since 1996 that marriage was (unconstitutionally) defined as exclusively between a man and a woman. It was overturned by SCOTUS. The State Amendments will fall as well.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#9761 Sep 11, 2013
Tradition is no excuse for continuing harmful laws and practices.

"But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Thomas Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816

“I Luv Carbon Dioxide”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#9762 Sep 12, 2013
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Huh

Owatonna, MN

#9763 Sep 12, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Yea people will sue people who are bigoted and filled with hate and who discriminate.

Just don't be a evil vile Nazi pig and your ok no one will sue you.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9764 Sep 12, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Such drama..........

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9765 Sep 12, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
Tradition is no excuse for continuing harmful laws and practices.
"But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Thomas Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816
Would Thomas Jefferson have supported SSM? Highly doubtful
Huh

Owatonna, MN

#9766 Sep 12, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
Would Thomas Jefferson have supported SSM? Highly doubtful
Not at his time no. This is 2013 though. As we age and grow we put aside childish hate and bigotry..Well us civilized sane people do..You Nazi pigs are filled with hate and bigotry.

“Romans 13: 8-10”

Since: Feb 08

Oklahoma City, OK

#9767 Sep 12, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
Would Thomas Jefferson have supported SSM? Highly doubtful
It's beyond all doubt that, were Jefferson alive today, knowing what we know about sexual orientation and marriage equality, he would absolutely support same sex marriage. No doubt whatsoever.

“Romans 13: 8-10”

Since: Feb 08

Oklahoma City, OK

#9768 Sep 12, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
No more than ending discrimination against blacks led to "neighbor suing neighbor." It's the most vomitous of lies to call Jim Crow "freedom." They have every right in their PRIVATE dealings to be bigots, they do NOT when they open a business to the public any more than Woolworths had the right to a "Whites Only" lunch counter.

“No Headline available”

Since: Jan 08

Defiance, Ohio

#9769 Sep 12, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Brian, if this is true, then why are most of the cases in jurisdictions that don't allow same sex marriage?

Could you just stipulate to the fact that you are an imbecile?

“Romans 13: 8-10”

Since: Feb 08

Oklahoma City, OK

#9770 Sep 12, 2013
Pietro Armando--"That depends too on what is considered an "injustice"?

Injustice has always meant the same thing.

"Why the sudden need for men to "marry" men, or women to "marry" women?"

First off, they don't "marry", they marry. A marriage as real and valid as anyone else's. Second, the need is not "sudden," and the reason is the same reason blacks "needed" access to the same schools or the front seat in the bus. It's called equality. Justice. The things this nation's SUPPOSED to stand for.
The better question is why the "need" to discriminate, when gay couples marrying don't harm anyone in any way whatsoever?

"Why hasn't such a need manifested itself before now?"

For the same reason Rosa Parks didn't sit in the front of the bus 40 years earlier.

"Gay people can marry whomever they want, however if they seek to legally marry, they have to follow the same rules. A man might fall in love with two women, but the laws says he can only legally marry one."

A moronic comparison. NOBODY is denied the right to marriage by laws saying you only marry one person. MILLIONS are denied that right by laws against same sex marriage. And NO liar, they CANNOT "marry whomever they want" in more than 30 states, and again NO legitimate reason except bigotry exists for these restrictions.

Same sex marriage and marrying more than one person are not remotely comparable.

"Two sisters may consider themselves spouses to each other, bu the laws says they cannot legally marry. It's not just gay people."

Yes, it is. This is a straw man argument, the two aren't comparable in any way, shape, manner or form.

"Perhaps you can clarify something. I get the impression that male sexuality is more "fixed" than female, which appears to be more "fluid"."

Your "impression" is obviously from some very uncredible sources. Sexual orientation doesn't change, whether male or female. There is no such thing as a former homosexual.

"For example, a woman who has been married for years, decades perhaps to her husband, and with children, "comes out of the closet" without any indication she was in the closet."

Because she was forced into the closet, you obviously have no clue what the closet MEANS, it means you DON'T "indicate" what's going on. If you're implying with this bullshit that the woman was straight and magically "turned gay" because Ellen told her to on TV, you're truly ignorant as all hell.

"Contrast that with a woman who used to self identify as a lesbian, flannel shirts, rainbow bumper sticker, is now married to a man and has children with him."

There are EXTREMELY rare cases of this happening, and they're obviously either bi-sexual, or lying. Again, a person DOES NOT change their sexual orientation. It doesn't happen. Ever.

"If a "straight" woman can "become a lesbian","

And they cannot.

"and a "lesbian" can become a "straight woman"."

And again they cannot.

"is it really set in stone, at least for some?"

It is for ALL. Sexual orientation doesn't change.

"It's, male female, a requirement, is over thirty states. By your reasoning, any requirement, other than age of consent and ability to consent, could be no longer required, in order for marriage "to work"

You really are putting the straw men to work overtime, now to have marriage equality you have to let 10 year olds marry? It's a lie, of course, as we see in the states where marriage equality has happened. NOBODY has married 12 people, their brother, their cat, a 9 year old, or a vacuum cleaner. Your "slippery slope" argument just ain't true.

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9771 Sep 12, 2013
If the lipstick lesbian was the gay icon of the nineties, these days she’s been replaced by her more controversial counterpart, the hasbian: a woman who used to date women but now dates men. Though Anne Heche is the most prominent example, many hasbians (sometimes called LUGS: lesbians until graduation) are by-products of nineties liberal-arts educations. Caught up in the gay scene at school, they came out at 20 or 21 and now, five or ten years later, are finding themselves in the odd position of coming out all over again—as heterosexuals.

Some hasbians identify as bisexual, while others say they’re straight and describe their lesbianism as a meaningful but finite phase of their lives, like listening to a lot of Morrissey or campaigning for Dukakis. But all say they have had to pay a price, feeling a need to keep their past lives secret from new boyfriends while facing judgment from their closest friends. Patty, a 27-year-old stockbroker, came out during college but for the past six months has been seeing a guy. She says she was so consumed with coming out that she never gave men a fair shot. Sex with her boyfriend is “tender,” she says, if less adventurous than with her girlfriend. Then there are the obvious differences.“With a man, orgasm is the goal. With women, you’re not as focused on it and it’s less of a race to get there. If a man doesn’t come, his ego is deflated, whereas with a woman, that’s not a factor. It’s more mix and match.”

Though she loves her boyfriend, it’s been hard integrating her two circles.“I have two very good friends who are brother and sister,” she says,“and they’re both gay. They say,‘When are you going to come back?’ I was at a party with my boyfriend and one of my friends said,‘Hey, you big dyke.’”

Then there was that delicate issue of telling her parents.“After I came out, my mother kept hinting about guys I could date, and I’d say,‘Mom, that’s not what I’m doing.’ Then I did start dating men, and she said,‘I knew you’d come back around.’ I haven’t talked to her about the fact that my attraction to women is still a part of who I am, that I’m bisexual.”

Some women reject the term bisexual. Katrina, 34, an actress, had a five-year-relationship with a woman but now dates men.“After my relationship, I would say I’m bisexual,” she says,“and a lot of women were turned off to me because they don’t trust bisexuals. And guys might want to be with one for a night, but they would never marry one. So bisexual girls lose.”

Deidre Sullivan, a comedian and writer, thinks the tension between lesbians and former lesbians is understandable:“Lesbians who live in the lesbian ghetto and hang out in lesbian bars named after dog food and cat food, dreaming of the hot transit worker at the end of the bar, are myopic and suspicious. The hasbian is very threatening because she crosses in and out of a sacred space. People fought so hard for the right to congregate in gay bars and to express their love openly, and now the interloper comes along.”

Linda, 40, a mental-health professional, experienced this antipathy firsthand. A model during the eighties, she had been surrounded by gay men at work but says she never thought she could be attracted to women—until she met her girlfriend. She thinks there are two kinds of bisexuals—those for whom gender is not a factor (the category she puts herself into) and those who avoid intimacy by shuttling between the sexes.

Though she and her girlfriend were together for seven years, her girlfriend had fears right from the beginning.“She always said that dating me was like holding her breath. And her friends told her I couldn’t possibly be good for her because if I had had any interest in men, I would again.”

When they broke up, for mutual reasons, she dated another woman, but once she met a man,“I was completely ostracized. They said I was polluting the community because I was exposing myself to HIV through having sex with men.”



“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9772 Sep 12, 2013
http://nymag.com/nymetro/nightlife/sex/column...

Jennifer Sharpe, 33, a graphic designer, says it’s easier when she hears an ex-girlfriend is now dating men.“If she were dating women, I would nut out and do a blow-by-blow comparison between the new girlfriend and me, whereas with a man, it’s a big blank spot. I can’t do the blow-by-blow analysis.”

Sharpe thinks some women who switch from dating women to men may be thinking about motherhood.“When you’re in your early twenties, maybe you want to have kids, but it’s more abstract. I don’t think a hasbian would be with a man just to have kids, but if she fell in love with a man, it would be easy to marry him. It’s complicated to have kids if you’re in a lesbian relationship—the whole question of the father and who carries the baby and what happens if you break up.”

If there are more hasbians today than ten years ago, Sharpe thinks, it may have to do with the excitement of the gay-positive early nineties.“The aesthetic of gay politics was really cool. There was that whole act up thing, and it was easy to be gay. You had k.d. lang on the cover of Vanity Fair with Cindy Crawford, and there were all these lesbian movies like Go Fish. The gay community felt more exciting back then, and there was something alluring about entering into that scene.”

“It’s like a junior year abroad to Gay World,” says Sullivan.“Lots of girls at Brown, Berkeley, Barnard, Mount Holyoke, Smith, and Yale go there but don’t stay there. For lesbians over 45, sexuality wasn’t a choice. It wasn’t popular to come out. It was pre-Madonna and pre–Sandra Bernhard.”

Even in today’s more gay-positive society, some hasbians still have trouble being forthcoming with their new boyfriends.“I haven’t told him I’m bisexual,” Patty admits.“I told him I wanted to see Frida, and he said,‘I don’t know anything about it.’ I said,‘She was this artist, she was bisexual,’ then I waited awhile and said,‘I’ve been with women.’ He said,‘I guess it was in college and you were experimenting?’ And I didn’t really continue with the subject. I don’t want him to think I’d leave him for a woman. It’s so foreign to him that it would take a lot of explaining.”

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9773 Sep 12, 2013
Part 1 last post was part 2

Bi For Now
Call them hasbians. Women who came out of the closet only to end up in heterosexual relationships. Switching teams is never easy—no matter which side you're on.

7 Comments Add Yours
By Amy Sohn (Email) ShareThis
If the lipstick lesbian was the gay icon of the nineties, these days she’s been replaced by her more controversial counterpart, the hasbian: a woman who used to date women but now dates men. Though Anne Heche is the most prominent example, many hasbians (sometimes called LUGS: lesbians until graduation) are by-products of nineties liberal-arts educations. Caught up in the gay scene at school, they came out at 20 or 21 and now, five or ten years later, are finding themselves in the odd position of coming out all over again—as heterosexuals.

Some hasbians identify as bisexual, while others say they’re straight and describe their lesbianism as a meaningful but finite phase of their lives, like listening to a lot of Morrissey or campaigning for Dukakis. But all say they have had to pay a price, feeling a need to keep their past lives secret from new boyfriends while facing judgment from their closest friends. Patty, a 27-year-old stockbroker, came out during college but for the past six months has been seeing a guy. She says she was so consumed with coming out that she never gave men a fair shot. Sex with her boyfriend is “tender,” she says, if less adventurous than with her girlfriend. Then there are the obvious differences.“With a man, orgasm is the goal. With women, you’re not as focused on it and it’s less of a race to get there. If a man doesn’t come, his ego is deflated, whereas with a woman, that’s not a factor. It’s more mix and match.”

Though she loves her boyfriend, it’s been hard integrating her two circles.“I have two very good friends who are brother and sister,” she says,“and they’re both gay. They say,‘When are you going to come back?’ I was at a party with my boyfriend and one of my friends said,‘Hey, you big dyke.’”

Then there was that delicate issue of telling her parents.“After I came out, my mother kept hinting about guys I could date, and I’d say,‘Mom, that’s not what I’m doing.’ Then I did start dating men, and she said,‘I knew you’d come back around.’ I haven’t talked to her about the fact that my attraction to women is still a part of who I am, that I’m bisexual.”

Some women reject the term bisexual. Katrina, 34, an actress, had a five-year-relationship with a woman but now dates men.“After my relationship, I would say I’m bisexual,” she says,“and a lot of women were turned off to me because they don’t trust bisexuals. And guys might want to be with one for a night, but they would never marry one. So bisexual girls lose.”

Deidre Sullivan, a comedian and writer, thinks the tension between lesbians and former lesbians is understandable:“Lesbians who live in the lesbian ghetto and hang out in lesbian bars named after dog food and cat food, dreaming of the hot transit worker at the end of the bar, are myopic and suspicious. The hasbian is very threatening because she crosses in and out of a sacred space. People fought so hard for the right to congregate in gay bars and to express their love openly, and now the interloper comes along.”

Linda, 40, a mental-health professional, experienced this antipathy firsthand. A model during the eighties, she had been surrounded by gay men at work but says she never thought she could be attracted to women—until she met her girlfriend. She thinks there are two kinds of bisexuals—those for whom gender is not a factor (the category she puts herself into) and those who avoid intimacy by shuttling between the sexes.

“Bullsh*% Detector Enabled”

Since: Dec 08

Brooklyn, New York

#9774 Sep 12, 2013
Church leaders are usually the ones banging the underage children in the congregation.

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9775 Sep 12, 2013
OkieDarren wrote:
Pietro Armando--"That depends too on what is considered an "injustice"?
Injustice has always meant the same thing.
Always? That depends on the issue, and one view. Not everyone excepts maintaining marriage a union of one man and one woman, as an "injustice".
"Why the sudden need for men to "marry" men, or women to "marry" women?"
First off, they don't "marry", they marry. A marriage as real and valid as anyone else's. Second, the need is not "sudden,"
I would think since Jamestown, or even earlier, perhaps when the Spanish arrived on these shores, a societal need for same sex marriage would have manifested self. Society would have seen a need.
and the reason is the same reason blacks "needed" access to the same schools or the front seat in the bus. It's called equality. Justice. The things this nation's SUPPOSED to stand for.
Uhhhhhh.....huh.....African/ Black Americans, whose ancestors were brought to this land in chains, have been fighting to be treated like any other American, nor more, no less. Other ethnic groups have had similar struggles, although not to the same extent. Japanese, Chinese, Italians, Easter Europeans, both Jews and Gentiles, even the Irish at one time.
The better question is why the "need" to discriminate, when gay couples marrying don't harm anyone in any way whatsoever?
[QUOTE]

That question can be applied to any number of consenting adult relationships, including plural marriage practitioners. Why "discriminate" against them?

[QUOTE]
"Why hasn't such a need manifested itself before now?"
For the same reason Rosa Parks didn't sit in the front of the bus 40 years earlier.
Was there ever a section on the bus reserved for those with self described same sex attraction?
"Gay people can marry whomever they want, however if they seek to legally marry, they have to follow the same rules. A man might fall in love with two women, but the laws says he can only legally marry one."
Not at all. Gay people have to follow THE SAME RULES as every one else. Equal treatment.
A moronic comparison. NOBODY is denied the right to marriage by laws saying you only marry one person. MILLIONS are denied that right by laws against same sex marriage. And NO liar, they CANNOT "marry whomever they want" in more than 30 states, and again NO legitimate reason except bigotry exists for these restrictions.
No is denied the right to marry saying you can only marry someone of the opposites sex. It applies to all men and all women, regardless of self described sexual orientation. No legitimate reason? There are gay folks who oppose SSM, for the same reason I do, and others do. Let me guess....in your eyes they're traitors....right?
Same sex marriage and marrying more than one person are not remotely comparable.
Both represent a fundamental alteration of marriage within American marital jurisprudence. SSM seeks to change the nature, opposite sex, while polygamy seeks to change the nature. Don't whine and complain because others want to jump in the "marriage equality" band wagon.
"Two sisters may consider themselves spouses to each other, bu the laws says they cannot legally marry. It's not just gay people."
Yes, it is. This is a straw man argument, the two aren't comparable in any way, shape, manner or form.
Why not? Two same sex first cousins can marry in SSM/first cousin states, so why not siblings? No risk of procreation there.

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