Church Leaders Vow Political Backlash if Gay Marriage Passes

Jan 7, 2013 Full story: NBC Chicago 17,567

Leaders of several Chicago-area African American churches on Monday urged state lawmakers to vote against pending legislation that would allow same-sex marriage in Illinois.

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Since: Jun 11

AOL

#9747 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no expectation what other self described gay men, or women do, or don't do.
<quoted text>
And they can, plus ya don't need the state to do that! The state is not obligated to license every individual definition of marriage, if it was, polygamy would be legal, as would incest.
<quoted text>
Why an individual couple chooses to marry is irrelevant as to why marriage is even recognized by the state to begin with. If not for the fact that sex between men and women makes babies, marriage wouldn't exist as we know it.
Most of the time, sex between opposite sex couples does not produce children.

Many opposite sex couples can never have a child, no matter how much sex they have, while some can't even have sex.

They are allowed to get married despite that fact, as procreation has never been a requirement for marriage in any state or by the federal government. Even anti-gay Justice Scalia recognizes this fact of law. Individuals who are elderly or otherwise sterile, paralyzed, amputated, or otherwise incapable of even having sex, are still recognized as retaining the fundamental right of marriage.

Your personal requirement of procreation ability in order to get married is your personal prejudice, not a requirement of law. Apply it to yourself if you choose, but the law does not impose it on anyone.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#9748 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
No state makes such demands.
Then it wasn't a very good point. If no STATE demands it, then YOU certainly don't get to.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Gay people raising kids are but one alternative family structure, among many.
And if all those OTHERS are no barrier to marriage....

And since parenting status doesn't affect marriage eligibility....

Once again, having children, or not, does not dictate a need OR an impediment to marriage. One may happen without ANY consideration for the other. And they often do.
Pietro Armando wrote:
The issues boils down to the legal definition of marriage, and why such definition should be changed, or maintained.
For the purposes of justice.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Does it not, to a degree parallel the decline in conjugal, as in husband and wife, marriage?
I don't know. I doubt it. It also parallels a rise in sea levels, or Batman movies. So? Correlation doesn't equal causation. I don't know that such a decline even exists
Pietro Armando wrote:
I thought ai had read an opinion piece prior to the ruling that indicated it was possible, not very probable though.
Well, I don't know what you read. Cases must be handled one issue at a time. Eventually, someone will sue against the unconstitutionality of Section 2.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Perhaps it is.
It is for me.
Pietro Armando wrote:
No state is compelled to recognize marriages performed in other states, as far as I know.
The Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution calls for them to, but Section 2 of DOMA violates that.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Who said anything about the "dark ages"?
I'm just wondering what specific "negative impacts" there will be. I keep hearing that there WILL be some, but never WHAT they will be.
Pietro Armando wrote:
I'm pointing out the negative impact of "no fault" divorce, and the rise in out of wedlock births.
You're claiming that such impacts exist, but you haven't pointed out what they are yet.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Are advocating its a positive to have weaker divorce laws, and increased out of wedlock births?
First off, I'd say these have nothing to do with same-sex marriages. Don't blame gay people for things we are not involved in.

But I would advocate that people should be free to form their own families, in their own ways. They don't need to be "shamed", or labeled as "negative impacts", just because they do it differently than you.
Pietro Armando wrote:
What was the impact in that country? Did it hasten the decline in marriage rates?
Oh, no doubt. Probably set off a whole pack of nukes too, and soured milk across the nation. Did I just see the Hague fall into the sea?

I'm sure the lousy world economy, or 10,000 other factors, played no part. It must be the gay marriages.

Why would you think that gay MARRIAGES have an erosive effect on nations, but gay CIVIL UNIONS are fine? If gay people can legally pair up ANYWAY, what makes you think one version will be harmful and the other harmless?
Pietro Armando wrote:
It we use "no fault" divorce as a guide, usually within a generation or two. Who knows, maybe SSM is a passing phase, that will eventually fade away. It never sustained itself, in the few societies that formally recognized same sex unions, so why do we think, this time is the charm?
Will they be throwing us back out of the military, too? Maybe ALL the rights we've fought for are a passing phase. Maybe Levitical law will kick back in. Maybe THAT'S the way to improve civil rights in this country. Maybe we should just GIVE UP striving for civil equality. Maybe it's just a phase.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

#9749 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
How would I put "marriage out of her reach"?
It seems that if you had your way, she could not marry the person she wants, and who is best suited for her. If she were a lesbian.
Pietro Armando wrote:
She's gotta live with 'em.
Or with 'er, as the case may be.
Pietro Armando wrote:
The functionality comes into play based on its relationship to society at large. Why is there a sudden need for SSM? How has society functioned for decades, if not centuries without it?
How did society function without allowing gays in the military? Society can still function while injustices are present. But once they are identified, work should be done to eliminate them.
Pietro Armando wrote:
He chose his "best friend"
Hint: so did you.
Pietro Armando wrote:
I'm not suggesting you find some "random woman just to satisfy someone else's expectations".
Every time you tell a gay person to go marry someone of the opposite sex ("like everyone else in this country"), that's what you're suggesting. Gay people DON'T fall in love with people of the opposite sex (in case you didn't understand how we work), so to marry the way YOU want would mean finding someone OTHER than the person they've fallen in love with. Some third-party stranger who has no investment in the existing relationship.
Pietro Armando wrote:
If they chose to marry each other, they would also choose what ever arrangements, if any, they wanted.
And if they chose all that TOGETHER, openly and honestly, then I see no problem. But how many women do you know who are anxious to marry a gay man, almost guaranteeing adultery and neglect against their wishes? That's not an "arrangement", it's just disfunction.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Uhhhhh.....ohhhhhh.....Kay.
Was I unclear?
Pietro Armando wrote:
Maybe you just haven't met her yet. I'll bite, what "standards...couldn't begin to Imagine"?
If I can't imagine them, how can I describe them? It isn't in my nature to choose a woman, not based on ANY standards. My nature points me to men. My standards assess men. Marrying a woman would be a defeatist effort, aimed only at satisfying YOU, and not me (or her) in any way.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Not "should" , could, as in possesses the same legal right to do so.
And when our shared national laws better reflect equality, you "could" marry a man, as you'll possess the same legal right to do so.
Pietro Armando wrote:
Not at all.
Oh, you just assume they'll think it sounds like a good idea?
Pietro Armando wrote:
Again, not at all. What's changed is several states have changed the foundation of legal marriage, eliminated the opposite sex requirement.
Recognizing how gay people work. Good for them.
Pietro Armando wrote:
I'm not quite sure what you're implying by that. "Won't work"?
You seem certain that marriage requires different genders, or your (narrow) definition of conjugality. If it requires these things, then it should not be possible for states to implement same-sex marriages. Yet it IS possible, disproving your requirements.

If these things WERE requirements, then NO same-sex marriage would function. They would fail out of the gate. They "wouldn't work". Yet they DO. It MUST be obvious that your "requirements" are not required.

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9750 Sep 11, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, repeat.......but you want your version of marriage to continue as you believe it should, hell......
"....your version of marriage"? Seriously NorCal......you must think before you type. It is or "my version", but the version of marriage nationwide until 2004, and still the version in over thirty states. But thanks for giving me the super power of defining marriage since the birth of the Republic. Why is "your version" of marriage the only other form of marriage that should be legalized?
you probably even commend Josh Weed for doing the "RIGHT" thing........
Still burns your britches...doesn't it? Are you suggesting it the "wrong" thing?
HOWEVER, Gays and Lesbians are getting married to those they love and want to share a life with and NOT based on the sexual parts......
So if its not about the "sexual parts", why not seek love among those whose "sexual parts" are not a gendered duplicate? Those "sexual parts" are just as important to "gays and lesbians" as they are to everyone else.,
Yes, couples can get married without state involvement......
Thank you for the honesty.
but then they also don't get the state or federal rights, benefits and privileges that happen to go with the State issued marriage license....
That is correct, and yes I can "grasp" that.

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9751 Sep 11, 2013
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
Then it wasn't a very good point. If no STATE demands it, then YOU certainly don't get to.
Why would there need to be a state requirement?
And if all those OTHERS are no barrier to marriage....
Yet we do to automatically designate the adult relationship in those alternative family structures, "marriage".
And since parenting status doesn't affect marriage eligibility....
.....There's no reason why a man and a woman should be denied the right to marry, provided they meet the other requirements.
Once again, having children, or not, does not dictate a need OR an impediment to marriage. One may happen without ANY consideration for the other. And they often do.
However, children, the by products of the male female sexual union are the foundation, primary reason, why marriage is recognized in the first place.
I don't know. I doubt it. It also parallels a rise in sea levels, or Batman movies. So? Correlation doesn't equal causation. I don't know that such a decline even exists
Batman movies? Now yer talking...what do you think of Ben Afleck as the new Bruce Wayne/Batman?
Well, I don't know what you read. Cases must be handled one issue at a time. Eventually, someone will sue against the unconstitutionality of Section 2.
I'm sure someone will as well.
It is for me.
Well then.....good for you!
The Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution calls for them to, but Section 2 of DOMA violates that.
That's up to SCOTUS to decide.
I'm just wondering what specific "negative impacts" there will be. I keep hearing that there WILL be some, but never WHAT they will be.
You're claiming that such impacts exist, but you haven't pointed out what they are yet.
First off, I'd say these have nothing to do with same-sex marriages. Don't blame gay people for things we are not involved in.
Agreed...in fairness...these conditions preceded ssm, not the fault of gay people. I do think, if marriage rates and in wedlock birth rates were at the same levels as they were 30-40 years ago, ssm wouldn't be legal.
But I would advocate that people should be free to form their own families, in their own ways. They don't need to be "shamed", or labeled as "negative impacts", just because they do it differently than you.
True....but I do see an ethical issue regarding the use of ART.
Oh, no doubt. Probably set off a whole pack of nukes too, and soured milk across the nation. Did I just see the Hague fall into the sea?
Still waiting on California to do that.
I'm sure the lousy world economy, or 10,000 other factors, played no part. It must be the gay marriages.
Why would you think that gay MARRIAGES have an erosive effect on nations, but gay CIVIL UNIONS are fine? If gay people can legally pair up ANYWAY, what makes you think one version will be harmful and the other harmless?
It's the foundation on which it rests. SSM is virtually a modern western invention. Marriage in the west is on the deline, as are birth rates. SSM changes the understanding of marriage as a male female relationship intrinsically linked to procreation, to one of simply a means of adult "happiness". A ss civil union legally acknowledges same sex relationships, while maintaining marriage as a legally recognized union of one man and one woman as husband and wife.
Will they be throwing us back out of the military, too? Maybe ALL the rights we've fought for are a passing phase. Maybe Levitical law will kick back in. Maybe THAT'S the way to improve civil rights in this country. Maybe we should just GIVE UP striving for civil equality. Maybe it's just a phase.
If ssm is such a great idea in the history of human civilizations, why didn't it develop cross time, cross culture alongside osm, both mono, and poly? SSSB isn't new.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#9752 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
It is or "my version", but the version of marriage nationwide until 2004, and still the version in over thirty states.
It matters not when it changed or how many states still have an issue with the right to marry for Same-Sex Couples like you do, the fact is that it is changing and those 30 states you keep speaking about, at least 9 of them are probably going to being switching sides on this issue......then what?

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9753 Sep 11, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
It matters not when it changed or how many states still have an issue with the right to marry for Same-Sex Couples like you do, the fact is that it is changing and those 30 states you keep speaking about, at least 9 of them are probably going to being switching sides on this issue......then what?
No response to the rest of my post? Maybe they'll switch side, maybe they won't. Time will tell.

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9754 Sep 11, 2013
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
It seems that if you had your way, she could not marry the person she wants, and who is best suited for her. If she were a lesbian.
Why stop there? Perhaps it's not one person best suited for her but two? Maybe it's her sister.
Or with 'er, as the case may be.
Them
How did society function without allowing gays in the military? Society can still function while injustices are present. But once they are identified, work should be done to eliminate them.
That depends too on what is considered an "injustice"? Why the sudden need for men to "marry" men, or women to "marry" women? Why hasn't such a need manifested itself before now?
Hint: so did you.
I.....did? Hmmmmmm....
Every time you tell a gay person to go marry someone of the opposite sex ("like everyone else in this country"), that's what you're suggesting. Gay people DON'T fall in love with people of the opposite sex (in case you didn't understand how we work), so to marry the way YOU want would mean finding someone OTHER than the person they've fallen in love with. Some third-party stranger who has no investment in the existing relationship.
Gay people can marry whomever they want, however if they seek to legally marry, they have to follow the same rules. A man might fall in love with two women, but the laws says he can only legally marry one. Two sisters may consider themselves spouses to each other, bu the laws says they cannot legally marry. It's not just gay people.
And if they chose all that TOGETHER, openly and honestly, then I see no problem. But how many women do you know who are anxious to marry a gay man, almost guaranteeing adultery and neglect against their wishes? That's not an "arrangement", it's just disfunction.
Perhaps you can clarify something. I get the impression that male sexuality is more "fixed" than female, which appears to be more "fluid". For example, a woman who has been married for years, decades perhaps to her husband, and with children, "comes out of the closet" without any indication she was in the closet. Contrast that with a woman who used to self identify as a lesbian, flannel shirts, rainbow bumper sticker, is now married to a man and has children with him. If a "straight" woman can "become a lesbian", and a "lesbian" can become a "straight woman".....is it really set in stone, at least for some?
If I can't imagine them, how can I describe them? It isn't in my nature to choose a woman, not based on ANY standards. My nature points me to men. My standards assess men. Marrying a woman would be a defeatist effort, aimed only at satisfying YOU, and not me (or her) in any way.
So you want a man like "dear old Dad"?
And when our shared national laws better reflect equality, you "could" marry a man, as you'll possess the same legal right to do so.
Why stop there....lets go hog wild with "equality". Maybe one could marry two, or a sibling?
Recognizing how gay people work. Good for them.
The same as everyone else who works...I suppose.
You seem certain that marriage requires different genders, or your (narrow) definition of conjugality. If it requires these things, then it should not be possible for states to implement same-sex marriages. Yet it IS possible, disproving your requirements.
You seem certain marriage can't include poly arrangements, or siblings. Your "narrow" definition can be changed too.
If these things WERE requirements, then NO same-sex marriage would function. They would fail out of the gate. They "wouldn't work". Yet they DO. It MUST be obvious that your "requirements" are not required.
It's, male female, a requirement, is over thirty states. By your reasoning, any requirement, other than age of consent and ability to consent, could be no longer required, in order for marriage "to work".

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9755 Sep 11, 2013
DaveinMass wrote:
<quoted text>
How does the state treat husbands and wives now? They treat them as SPOUSES! There is nothing in any of the laws that govern married couples that treat 'husbands' any different;y than 'wives'. They each get treated as SPOUSES! And two males or two females legally married get treated as SPOUSES by the state.
There's also no reason why siblings, at least same sex, can be spouses, or three people can't be spouses.

“Equality for ALL”

Since: Jul 10

Massachusetts

#9756 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
There's also no reason why siblings, at least same sex, can be spouses, or three people can't be spouses.
I addressed the same-sex sibling issue in #9314 on 4 Sept.

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/gay/TP39MT577...

Plural marriages has also been address ad nauseum. It is not my issue. If those seeking such legal marriages wish to petition either their state legislature or the courts to seek redress, they are more than free to do so. More than two spouses would need a total revamp of the laws governing married couples however (something that did not have to happen when same-sex couples began marrying.).

The key word in all of this is SPOUSE. Not husband or wife. Did you ever find any law that treats the 'husband' or 'wife' differently?

Just because the phrase 'I now pronounce you husband and wife' is not used in same-sex marriages does not make those marriages any different or less legal than marriages that happen to use the phrase.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9757 Sep 11, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>Same sex marriage creates more problems than it solves.
only on your imaginary playground. Best to learn to get along.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9758 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
There's also no reason why siblings, at least same sex, can be spouses, or three people can't be spouses.
Yes, there IS a reason. You don't like it, but it's there.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9759 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
Why stop there? Perhaps it's not one person best suited for her but two? Maybe it's her sister.

Sane people stop there because they are aware that the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy and a red herring. Every time you use it, you lose.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9760 Sep 11, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
"....your version of marriage"? Seriously NorCal......you must think before you type. It is or "my version", but the version of marriage nationwide until 2004, and still the version in over thirty states. But thanks for giving me the super power of defining marriage since the birth of the Republic.
It was only since 1996 that marriage was (unconstitutionally) defined as exclusively between a man and a woman. It was overturned by SCOTUS. The State Amendments will fall as well.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#9761 Sep 11, 2013
Tradition is no excuse for continuing harmful laws and practices.

"But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Thomas Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816

“I Luv Carbon Dioxide”

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#9762 Sep 12, 2013
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Huh

Owatonna, MN

#9763 Sep 12, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Yea people will sue people who are bigoted and filled with hate and who discriminate.

Just don't be a evil vile Nazi pig and your ok no one will sue you.
Neil An Blowme

Hoboken, NJ

#9764 Sep 12, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Same sex marriage means neighbor suing neighbor. See the examples of same sex marriage supporters suing wedding vendors for refusing to participate in same sex wedding ceremonies. Same sex marriage is the death of freedom.
Such drama..........

“Vita e' Bella.”

Since: May 12

Location hidden

#9765 Sep 12, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
Tradition is no excuse for continuing harmful laws and practices.
"But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors." - Thomas Jefferson to H. Tompkinson (AKA Samuel Kercheval), July 12, 1816
Would Thomas Jefferson have supported SSM? Highly doubtful
Huh

Owatonna, MN

#9766 Sep 12, 2013
Pietro Armando wrote:
<quoted text>
Would Thomas Jefferson have supported SSM? Highly doubtful
Not at his time no. This is 2013 though. As we age and grow we put aside childish hate and bigotry..Well us civilized sane people do..You Nazi pigs are filled with hate and bigotry.

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