Clinton: Court should nix anti-gay ma...

Clinton: Court should nix anti-gay marriage law

There are 59 comments on the CBS News story from Mar 7, 2013, titled Clinton: Court should nix anti-gay marriage law. In it, CBS News reports that:

Former President Bill Clinton is calling on the Supreme Court to overturn a law he signed that bars federal recognition of same-sex marriages.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBS News.

“Luke laughs at hypocrites!”

Since: Sep 10

Palm Springs, California

#21 Mar 8, 2013
RalphB wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd hate to be his dry-cleaner.
Humm, his washing machine had a stomach ache for a month after the last load.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#22 Mar 8, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Correct. Only 1 amendment (prohibition) has ever been overturned in our 200+ year history.
And that was the only amendment that restricted freedom and equality rather than protecting it.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#23 Mar 8, 2013
eJohn wrote:
<quoted text>
Very true. Both laws focused enough awareness on the issues that we were able to use them to our advantage, though it took a bit of time.
Had DADT not been implemented, GLBT service members would have continued to be totally invisible and openly persecuted. Under DADT, there was some visibility, and possibly more important, record-keeping of the damage that such a policy does to the military.
Without the Federal DOMA, I believe we would have absolutely had an anti-marriage amendment to the Federal Constitution, meaning that we wouldn't have had couples marrying in Massachusetts nearly 10 years ago and proving to those on-the-fence on the issue (which, back then, was just about everyone) that marriage equality won't bring on the end of the world. Or even effect anyone else.
So, yeah. As difficult as they were at the time, they both ultimately ended up being good for us. They both created visibility and highlighted the unequal treatment we face for not valid reason.
I agree DOMA prevented a constitutional amendment, and in that sense was good.

Not so sure about DADT. He could have removed the prohibition by executive order and vetoed attempts to change that, but it would have been a big fight that might have cost re-election.

But many of our advances have come from overturning laws that singled us out for punishment. Romer and Lawrence are just two of many examples.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#24 Mar 8, 2013
eJohn wrote:
<quoted text>
If memory serves, he said that from the very beginning. He never wanted to sign that legislation, but there were enough idiots panicking and crapping their pants over it, that there was a real possibility that a FEDERAL marriage amendment might have been able to be passed. If that had happened, we would likely be 50 to 100 years behind the rest of the world because getting a Federal amendment repealed is much harder to do.
It's super easy for hoards of panicking fools to get something big done, but it's far more difficult for level-headed, thinking people to do the same. Sad, but true.
Especially so when such an amendment target such an unsympathetic minority.

The repeal of Prohibition was a breeze. Pretty much everyone just decided to stop being hypocrites in favor of fun for themselves.

But don't get overconfident. Circumstances could still conspitre to do the unthinkable now. Remember how many States still have State Amendments, and Prop8 in CALIFORNIA !!!!! Going into it, one would have thought that one an impossibility. Perhaps that is part of why it passed, eh?

Beware the herd. It's collective "mind" is not actually very bright, panics easily, and is manipulated by it's fears and appetites.

The true "beast".

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#25 Mar 8, 2013
eJohn wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not it. He wouldn't have been able to veto a Federal Marriage Amendment and there was a LOT of talk about it and a very real possibility that the panicking idiots would have been able to muster up enough anti-gay panic to do it.
Him signing the Federal DOMA stopped the panic and derailed the momentum that was building toward the FMA. Only within the past few years Has the threat of a Federal Amendment finally faded away as the number of states that would potentially support it has gone below the 37 state threshold and support for in in Congress has faded.
It sounds bizarre, but yes, things would have been FAR worse for much longer had he not done that.
It is still VERY important to remember that it actually takes a relatively small population in each vote to effect a Yeah vote for the State.

Really, people. DO take the time to listen to this Mp3 and really think about it. You'll see what I mean.(It's also very funny in spots).

http://www.npr.org/2011/06/10/137077599/prohi...

You really won't regret the few minutes to listen.

(hiccup)

"Rabbi" Murphy

“Marriage Equality”

Since: Dec 07

Lakeland, MI

#26 Mar 8, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree DOMA prevented a constitutional amendment, and in that sense was good.
Not so sure about DADT. He could have removed the prohibition by executive order and vetoed attempts to change that, but it would have been a big fight that might have cost re-election.
But many of our advances have come from overturning laws that singled us out for punishment. Romer and Lawrence are just two of many examples.
I agree, for sure.

I DO remember, though, that when the whole gays in the military fight that ended in DADT started, most of the people I was talking to about it were astonished that there even WERE any GLBT service members. This was 1992, remember. Most of the people I worked with were just shocked that it would even be possible for a gay person to get into the military in the first place.

In their minds, a gay guy wanting to join the military would totally be given away by the makeup and high heels he would be wearing and the purse he'd be carrying to the recruitment center. And then, of course, he wouldn't be able to stop himself from hitting on all the hot guys in the place, so NO!! No way were GAY GUYS gettin' in the military!!

And a dyke, of course, would show up with her hair already buzz-cut and tattoos of naked women all over her arms. And everyone can recognize a dyke, right?? They all weigh 400 pounds and ride Harleys! So, DUH!! THEY weren't getting into the military, either.

People were absolutely convinced that there WERE NO gays in the military. It was totally inconceivable to them that such a thing could happen. Our military was full of brave young studs looking for adventure and pussy and hot babes looking for husbands, not fags and dykes. No way!! No how!!

But one thing that DADT did was to highlight that no only WERE there GLBT folks in the military, but there were a LOT of us there! Lots and lots and lots. And once they started kicking out highly decorated and high-ranking military personnel with records that were the envy of a lot of their peers, it was pretty hard to deny that we were not only well represented in their ranks, but doing really good jobs, too.

Of course, there were far better ways to prove that, like simply lifting the ban and asking service members if they were gay or not, but you're right, too, that lifting the ban would have likely cost Clinton his second term and the Republicans would have screamed nonstop for four years until they got Bob Dole to reinstitute the ban.

I should also say, too, that I knew quite a few ex-military people at that time, and none of them had any doubt that the military had a lot of GLBT members. They knew it because they knew THEM. But, sadly, they also knew that they had to keep quiet about it.

The keep-the-gays-out-of-the-milit ary push was a conservative politician's fantasy. And pretty much everyone knew it.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#27 Mar 8, 2013
snyper wrote:
From the article:
" ... Clinton says the Defense of Marriage Act is incompatible with the Constitution. He says he signed the law in 1996 to avoid legislation that would have been even worse for gays ... "
whatdiditellya.
It would probably surprise you, but Bush did something similar when he signed DADT, ironically. I guess even really bad leaders can do something decent once in a while.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#28 Mar 8, 2013
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
It would probably surprise you, but Bush did something similar when he signed DADT, ironically. I guess even really bad leaders can do something decent once in a while.
Pssst, it was Clinton who signed DADT as well......

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#29 Mar 8, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Pssst, it was Clinton who signed DADT as well......
Yeah, I was trying to show a silver lining for even a Repubug. ;)

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#30 Mar 8, 2013
eJohn wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, for sure.
I DO remember, though, that when the whole gays in the military fight that ended in DADT started, most of the people I was talking to about it were astonished that there even WERE any GLBT service members. This was 1992, remember. Most of the people I worked with were just shocked that it would even be possible for a gay person to get into the military in the first place.
In their minds, a gay guy wanting to join the military would totally be given away by the makeup and high heels he would be wearing and the purse he'd be carrying to the recruitment center. And then, of course, he wouldn't be able to stop himself from hitting on all the hot guys in the place, so NO!! No way were GAY GUYS gettin' in the military!!
And a dyke, of course, would show up with her hair already buzz-cut and tattoos of naked women all over her arms. And everyone can recognize a dyke, right?? They all weigh 400 pounds and ride Harleys! So, DUH!! THEY weren't getting into the military, either.
People were absolutely convinced that there WERE NO gays in the military. It was totally inconceivable to them that such a thing could happen. Our military was full of brave young studs looking for adventure and pussy and hot babes looking for husbands, not fags and dykes. No way!! No how!!
But one thing that DADT did was to highlight that no only WERE there GLBT folks in the military, but there were a LOT of us there! Lots and lots and lots. And once they started kicking out highly decorated and high-ranking military personnel with records that were the envy of a lot of their peers, it was pretty hard to deny that we were not only well represented in their ranks, but doing really good jobs, too.
Of course, there were far better ways to prove that, like simply lifting the ban and asking service members if they were gay or not, but you're right, too, that lifting the ban would have likely cost Clinton his second term and the Republicans would have screamed nonstop for four years until they got Bob Dole to reinstitute the ban.
I should also say, too, that I knew quite a few ex-military people at that time, and none of them had any doubt that the military had a lot of GLBT members. They knew it because they knew THEM. But, sadly, they also knew that they had to keep quiet about it.
The keep-the-gays-out-of-the-milit ary push was a conservative politician's fantasy. And pretty much everyone knew it.
For me, the military issue had already been brought out of the closet by Leonard Matlovich and Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer. I think polls were showing a majority in acceptance as well.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#31 Mar 8, 2013
On September 8, 1975, Leonard Matlovich appeared on the cover of Time magazine in uniform over the headline “I Am a Homosexual; The Gay Drive for Acceptance.”

Technical Sergeant Leonard Matlovich (July 7, 1943 – June 22, 1988) was a Vietnam War veteran, race relations instructor, and recipient of the Purple Heart and the Bronze Star.

His tombstone is in Washington DC’s Congressional Cemetery, where additional gay veterans have since chosen to be buried. The tombstone reads:

A Gay Vietnam Veteran
When I was in the military, they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one

SLDN Executive Director Aubrey Sarvis said,“Leonard Matlovich’s extraordinary courage in a time when gays and lesbians faced extreme prejudice is an example for us all. He was a brave pioneer and set off a struggle that we can finally envision winning. The debt that gay veterans—and the entire gay community—owe to Sergeant Matlovich cannot be overstated.”

Angered by the ban, he purposely declared his homosexuality in a 1975 letter to Air Force Secretary John McLucas and fought to remain in the military. Sergeant Matlovich’s case won widespread media attention. On September 8, 1975, Matlovich appeared on the cover of Time magazine in uniform over the headline “I Am a Homosexual; The Gay Drive for Acceptance.”

After losing his bid to remain in the Air Force through their administrative proceedings, a US District Court judge ordered Matlovich reinstated with back pay. After more litigation, Matlovich eventually accepted a financial settlement and an upgrade to honorable discharge. He continued his tireless efforts for gay equality in the civilian sector. Matlovich announced he had AIDS during an interview with Charlie Gibson on “Good Morning America” in 1987. He died on June 22, 1988, just two weeks before his 45th birthday.(Servicemembers Legal Defense Network)

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#32 Mar 8, 2013
Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer (born March 24, 1942) served as a colonel in the Washington National Guard and became a gay rights activist. At the University of Washington School of Nursing, she earned a master's degree in 1976 and a Ph.D. in 1991.

In 1989, responding to a question during a routine security clearance interview, she disclosed that she is a lesbian. The National Guard began military discharge proceedings against her. On June 11, 1992, she was honorably discharged.

Cammermeyer filed a lawsuit against the decision in civil court. In June 1994, Judge Thomas Zilly of the United States District Court for the Western District of Washington ruled that her discharge and the ban on gays and lesbians serving in the military were unconstitutional. She returned to the National Guard and served as one of the few openly gay or lesbian people in the U.S. military while the "don't ask don't tell" policy was in effect, until her retirement in 1997.

A television movie about Cammermeyer's story, Serving in Silence, was made in 1995, with Glenn Close starring as Cammermeyer. Its content was largely taken from Cammermeyer's autobiography of the same name.

(In 2012, after same-sex marriage was legalized in Washington state, Cammermeyer and her partner Diane Divelbess became the first same-sex couple to get a license in Island County.) wiki

“Marriage Equality”

Since: Dec 07

Lakeland, MI

#33 Mar 8, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>For me, the military issue had already been brought out of the closet by Leonard Matlovich and Margarethe "Grethe" Cammermeyer. I think polls were showing a majority in acceptance as well.
True. But remember, people like you and I actually think about reality and don't rely on irrational stereotypes to form our opinions. Unfortunately, we're in a fairly small group, I think.

Since: Dec 08

El Paso, TX

#34 Mar 8, 2013
RalphB wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd hate to be his dry-cleaner.
I'd almost wager he doesn't own a thing that dry cleaners would agree to clean.

“Luke laughs at hypocrites!”

Since: Sep 10

Palm Springs, California

#35 Mar 9, 2013
TomInElPaso wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd almost wager he doesn't own a thing that dry cleaners would agree to clean.
Who dry cleans Walmart XXXL t-shirts, anyway?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#36 Mar 9, 2013
eJohn wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree, for sure.
I DO remember, though, that when the whole gays in the military fight that ended in DADT started, most of the people I was talking to about it were astonished that there even WERE any GLBT service members. This was 1992, remember. Most of the people I worked with were just shocked that it would even be possible for a gay person to get into the military in the first place.
In their minds, a gay guy wanting to join the military would totally be given away by the makeup and high heels he would be wearing and the purse he'd be carrying to the recruitment center. And then, of course, he wouldn't be able to stop himself from hitting on all the hot guys in the place, so NO!! No way were GAY GUYS gettin' in the military!!
And a dyke, of course, would show up with her hair already buzz-cut and tattoos of naked women all over her arms. And everyone can recognize a dyke, right?? They all weigh 400 pounds and ride Harleys! So, DUH!! THEY weren't getting into the military, either.
People were absolutely convinced that there WERE NO gays in the military. It was totally inconceivable to them that such a thing could happen. Our military was full of brave young studs looking for adventure and pussy and hot babes looking for husbands, not fags and dykes. No way!! No how!!
But one thing that DADT did was to highlight that no only WERE there GLBT folks in the military, but there were a LOT of us there! Lots and lots and lots. And once they started kicking out highly decorated and high-ranking military personnel with records that were the envy of a lot of their peers, it was pretty hard to deny that we were not only well represented in their ranks, but doing really good jobs, too.
Of course, there were far better ways to prove that, like simply lifting the ban and asking service members if they were gay or not, but you're right, too, that lifting the ban would have likely cost Clinton his second term and the Republicans would have screamed nonstop for four years until they got Bob Dole to reinstitute the ban.
I should also say, too, that I knew quite a few ex-military people at that time, and none of them had any doubt that the military had a lot of GLBT members. They knew it because they knew THEM. But, sadly, they also knew that they had to keep quiet about it.
The keep-the-gays-out-of-the-milit ary push was a conservative politician's fantasy. And pretty much everyone knew it.
As someone who was on active duty before & during DADT, I can tell you without a doubt the ONLY people who thought there were no gays in the military were ignorant civilians.

Everyone in the military knew we were there and most just simply didn't care, even before DADT was implimented. I remember many of my straight coworkers who thought Clinton should have just ended the ban outright. Gay & lesbian servicemembers obviously couldn't say anything, but many heteros talked about it openly.

Most of us saw DADT as a positive step forward, but I never thought it would last as long as it did.

“Luke laughs at hypocrites!”

Since: Sep 10

Palm Springs, California

#37 Mar 9, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
As someone who was on active duty before & during DADT, I can tell you without a doubt the ONLY people who thought there were no gays in the military were ignorant civilians.
Everyone in the military knew we were there and most just simply didn't care, even before DADT was implimented. I remember many of my straight coworkers who thought Clinton should have just ended the ban outright. Gay & lesbian servicemembers obviously couldn't say anything, but many heteros talked about it openly.
Most of us saw DADT as a positive step forward, but I never thought it would last as long as it did.
Thank you for your service. I would love to see the military history of most of our haters on here, I am sure they never served and are major chicken hawks, ala Cheney and Rumsfeld and all that white trash who were so hot to send others to their death.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#38 Mar 9, 2013
Curteese wrote:
<quoted text>Thank you for your service. I would love to see the military history of most of our haters on here, I am sure they never served and are major chicken hawks, ala Cheney and Rumsfeld and all that white trash who were so hot to send others to their death.
Yep, just as the majority of those claiming the sky would fall when DADT was repealed never actually served in the military.

That's why all their predictions of mass exodus from the military failed to materialize. They had no 1st hand knowledge of the military, or they would never had made such stupid predictions.

“Luke laughs at hypocrites!”

Since: Sep 10

Palm Springs, California

#39 Mar 9, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep, just as the majority of those claiming the sky would fall when DADT was repealed never actually served in the military.
That's why all their predictions of mass exodus from the military failed to materialize. They had no 1st hand knowledge of the military, or they would never had made such stupid predictions.
I liked it that the first to employe it was the Marines, the tough ass branch known for uber macho, but they were the ones to start allowing gay marriages, etc. I happen to LIKE Marines and have, uh, MET a few in my time. All that training DOES make for FINE bodies.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#40 Mar 9, 2013
Curteese wrote:
<quoted text>I liked it that the first to employe it was the Marines, the tough ass branch known for uber macho, but they were the ones to start allowing gay marriages, etc. I happen to LIKE Marines and have, uh, MET a few in my time. All that training DOES make for FINE bodies.
Yep, there is no such thing as a fat Marine; and they know how to follow orders!

They were also the first branch to recognize the same-sex spouses in their "wives clubs".

I really wish the media would make a bigger issue over the fact that all those "sky will fall" predictions didn't come true. We really need to remind the public at every opportunity how much they lied and wrong they were in their predictions; especially when they keep making similiar claims every time a state is about to pass marriage equality.

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