Catholic School Students Protest Firing Over Gay Marriage

Jan 7, 2014 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: National Public Radio

The vice principal of a suburban Seattle Catholic school says he was fired for marrying a man.

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knowledge is power

Clarksburg, WV

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#21
Jan 8, 2014
 

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Apparently the good Catholic kids don't know the bible and to not follow gods word. I don't have problem with a gay man being a teacher, or being a teacher at a catholic school. But to get married and being gay goes against catholic beliefs and the bible. Breaks many commandments . Where are these kids catholic parents?
I like how non Catholics bring up what the Pope has said. He never said its ok to be gay. Never said its ok for you to marry.
The Pope said to not let this stand in way of love. To love gays and not worry about their marriage if it doesn't effect us just clouds our moral compass.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#22
Jan 8, 2014
 

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knowledge is power wrote:
Apparently the good Catholic kids don't know the bible and to not follow gods word. I don't have problem with a gay man being a teacher, or being a teacher at a catholic school. But to get married and being gay goes against catholic beliefs and the bible. Breaks many commandments . Where are these kids catholic parents?
I like how non Catholics bring up what the Pope has said. He never said its ok to be gay. Never said its ok for you to marry.
The Pope said to not let this stand in way of love. To love gays and not worry about their marriage if it doesn't effect us just clouds our moral compass.
Shouldn't your "moral compass" tell you that morality is about avoiding harm to one another? Doesn't morality concern things like cruelty, brutality, spite?

I think these kids are better off NOT following "God's word", if that word says that it's actually MORAL to shun someone, fire them from a job they are well qualified at, or to villainize them as if they were criminals simply because they love and want to protect the closest person to them in their lives.

What kind of nonsense is this "God" character teaching, when innocent, productive, law-abiding, kind and helpful human beings are treated as if they are undesirable? Much more likely that this book is the work of primitive humans of ancient times, who didn't know how the hell to treat outsiders to their tribe. Rise above this broken "compass", which obviously tells you nothing about morality, but only about exclusion, privilege, and hypocrisy.
knowledge is power

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#23
Jan 9, 2014
 

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EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>Shouldn't your "moral compass" tell you that morality is about avoiding harm to one another? Doesn't morality concern things like cruelty, brutality, spite?

I think these kids are better off NOT following "God's word", if that word says that it's actually MORAL to shun someone, fire them from a job they are well qualified at, or to villainize them as if they were criminals simply because they love and want to protect the closest person to them in their lives.

What kind of nonsense is this "God" character teaching, when innocent, productive, law-abiding, kind and helpful human beings are treated as if they are undesirable? Much more likely that this book is the work of primitive humans of ancient times, who didn't know how the hell to treat outsiders to their tribe. Rise above this broken "compass", which obviously tells you nothing about morality, but only about exclusion, privilege, and hypocrisy.
You do realize gay couples can't not create more of gods children? You do realize to go against the teachings of the bible for personal reasons is still wrong?
This wasn't a public school ran by gay liberals. This was a catholic school with catholic teachings. Gay marriage is wrong to us catholic. Not the gay ppl themselves. Just cannot be wed. As for ones moral compass, I'm sure this man knew the teaching and beliefs of Catholic Church being a teacher. Exclusion,privilege and hypocrisy??? The only thing I find wrong is these children did follow their faith in this catholic school. They broke commandments. As serious as you are about gays and marriage. I'm even more serious about following ones religion. Just because you don't take ones religion serious doesn't mean others don't!

Since: Mar 07

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#24
Jan 9, 2014
 

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knowledge is power wrote:
Apparently the good Catholic kids don't know the bible and to not follow gods word. I don't have problem with a gay man being a teacher, or being a teacher at a catholic school. But to get married and being gay goes against catholic beliefs .....
So, all Catholics believe that while heterosexuals should to the "right thing" and marry when the right relationship forms, they also believe that the "right thing" for gay folks to do is shack up and "live in sin"? The the right thing for straight folks becomes wrong only when gay folks do it.

Why the strange double standard? And don't you think such a standard confuses kids, gay and straight alike?

Since: Mar 07

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#25
Jan 9, 2014
 

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knowledge is power wrote:
<quoted text>
You do realize gay couples can't not create more of gods children?..
So, unless a couple can create children who are biologically related to both parents, they should not be able to marry? Does this apply equally to straight couples? This would disqualify every infertile person, aged person, and forbid every blended family.

Marriage would be decimated.

And don't forget millions of children are being raised by couples of the same gender all over the country. Are you REALLY saying that all of THEIR children are "Satan's children", since you don't believe that they are God's?

Again, you need to rationally explain the double standard.

Since: Mar 07

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#26
Jan 9, 2014
 

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knowledge is power wrote:
<quoted text>
......The only thing I find wrong is these children did follow their faith in this catholic school. They broke commandments. As serious as you are about gays and marriage. I'm even more serious about following ones religion. Just because you don't take ones religion serious doesn't mean others don't!
So, if those who practice strict Sharia law murder their own children in "honor killings", it is acceptable because the action is based on strong religious beliefs? And anyone who protests such a thing is breaking commandments and wrong?

The place to start is to acknowledge that any time any religious belief actually harms someone, for no logical reason or benefit, that it is likely wrong, regardless of how strong that belief is, or how long it has been held.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#27
Jan 9, 2014
 
knowledge is power wrote:
You do realize gay couples can't not create more of gods children?
So what? Is that supposed to make gay people "evil" or something? Is that a good reason to FIRE them from jobs they're well qualified for? LOTS of people can't have children, but we don't go around slandering them as "immoral" because of it. You should judge people by their character and their kindness, not by their procreative ability.
knowledge is power wrote:
You do realize to go against the teachings of the bible for personal reasons is still wrong?
And I wonder how many divorced teachers they've fired. We've heard about zero so far. I think they're singling gay people out, and ignoring heterosexuals who "go against the teachings of the bible" all the time.
knowledge is power wrote:
This wasn't a public school ran by gay liberals. This was a catholic school with catholic teachings. Gay marriage is wrong to us catholic. Not the gay ppl themselves. Just cannot be wed.
I'm not saying they don't have a right to fire this man. They do. But I'm wondering WHY they felt the need. He was good with students, obviously very popular and well-loved by them. His personal life ought to be HIS personal life. He wasn't out murdering people, for crying out loud. Why not simply judge people when they are cruel or brutal to others? Why should it be a Catholic doctrine to punish people for LOVE? How backwards.
knowledge is power wrote:
As for ones moral compass, I'm sure this man knew the teaching and beliefs of Catholic Church being a teacher.
And he could no more separate himself from his own humanity than anyone else could. It's despicable for ANY employer, religious or not, to ask people to give up their need for love, companionship and family, just to keep a job. Why should the church require people to stop being HUMAN, just so they can be Catholic?
knowledge is power wrote:
Exclusion,privilege and hypocrisy???
Yes. Exclusion, as in treating good and decent human beings as if they were criminals and outsiders. Privilege, as in all the rules that are constantly bent and broken for Christians of all stripes, and how they are allowed to treat good people with scorn. Hypocrisy, as in firing this man for something that all good humans desire, while other heterosexual Catholics who no doubt divorce, use contraceptives, or even masturbate, get a free pass.
knowledge is power wrote:
The only thing I find wrong is these children did follow their faith in this catholic school. They broke commandments.
I'll assume you meant that they "DIDN'T" follow their faith. I'm GLAD they didn't, if their faith asks them to shun valuable members of society, and to treat love as if the Catholic Church held the copyright on the only allowable kind. These kids appear to be more aware of goodness and charity than most religious people I speak to.
knowledge is power wrote:
As serious as you are about gays and marriage. I'm even more serious about following ones religion.
I'm serious about treating people good, and fairly, unless they are harming others physically or through violations of their freedom. That includes gay people. I'm sorry that your religion sees us as unworthy of equitable consideration as fellow humans.
knowledge is power wrote:
Just because you don't take ones religion serious doesn't mean others don't!
I will take anything seriously, as long as it leads a person to proper behavior toward others, and thoughtful consideration of their needs. But I don't see religion do that. Religion makes people smug and superior, it makes them condemn others for things that aren't crimes, and it makes them abandon critical, realistic thinking in favor of magic stories.

I sincerely hope that this incident leads ALL these kids to eventually reject religion entirely. They will be much better people for it.
knowledge is power

Clarksburg, WV

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#28
Jan 9, 2014
 
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>So, all Catholics believe that while heterosexuals should to the "right thing" and marry when the right relationship forms, they also believe that the "right thing" for gay folks to do is shack up and "live in sin"? The the right thing for straight folks becomes wrong only when gay folks do it.

Why the strange double standard? And don't you think such a standard confuses kids, gay and straight alike?
Ok first off being gay is a sin. Is not condoned by the Pope or the Catholic Church. The marriage part is at the furthest end of spectrum. No double standard. Wrong is wrong and sin is sin. It's not ok to be gay and the Pope said not to waste time on defending the church an not showing these people love and to love these people regardless of sexual orientation. Once marriage is brought into the church only follow the bible and teaching to see its not acceptable.
As far as children being confused. Why would they be? If their parents the father especially being the head of the house teaches them the rules of the bible and what god an Jesus has told us. It shouldn't be a problem or hard to understand for them. Male and Female = Marriage. You are supposed to love everyone and forgive everyone. Even if gay, but marriage in the church is unacceptable to all Christians. How can they make more followers to spread the word?
Their is a difference between religion and being a bigot. I have some gay friend since high school. I speak to them as I would a member of my church. I have been asked to go to ones "wedding". I told him/ them I couldn't it went against my faith. They both seemed to understand and it has not changed our friendship or relationship between all parties. I guess they respect my position of faith and understand I would do anything else for them.
knowledge is power

Clarksburg, WV

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#29
Jan 9, 2014
 
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>So, if those who practice strict Sharia law murder their own children in "honor killings", it is acceptable because the action is based on strong religious beliefs? And anyone who protests such a thing is breaking commandments and wrong?

The place to start is to acknowledge that any time any religious belief actually harms someone, for no logical reason or benefit, that it is likely wrong, regardless of how strong that belief is, or how long it has been held.
I cant speak on other religions I only know the catholic faith and what Catholics stand for. I do know there is only one God. Also only one set of commandments.
The only time God told someone to kill their child was with Abraham. This was only to test his faith. We all know it was never executed.
As far as gay people raising children I'm sure that they could do a good job I'm not debating whether or not they could be good parents. Also people that cannot have children that adopt maybe that was God's plan who am I to say if it was or wasn't.
knowledge is power

Clarksburg, WV

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#30
Jan 9, 2014
 
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>So what? Is that supposed to make gay people "evil" or something? Is that a good reason to FIRE them from jobs they're well qualified for? LOTS of people can't have children, but we don't go around slandering them as "immoral" because of it. You should judge people by their character and their kindness, not by their procreative ability.

knowledge is power wrote, "You do realize to go against the teachings of the bible for personal reasons is still wrong?"

And I wonder how many divorced teachers they've fired. We've heard about zero so far. I think they're singling gay people out, and ignoring heterosexuals who "go against the teachings of the bible" all the time.

knowledge is power wrote, "This wasn't a public school ran by gay liberals. This was a catholic school with catholic teachings. Gay marriage is wrong to us catholic. Not the gay ppl themselves. Just cannot be wed."

I'm not saying they don't have a right to fire this man. They do. But I'm wondering WHY they felt the need. He was good with students, obviously very popular and well-loved by them. His personal life ought to be HIS personal life. He wasn't out murdering people, for crying out loud. Why not simply judge people when they are cruel or brutal to others? Why should it be a Catholic doctrine to punish people for LOVE? How backwards.

knowledge is power wrote, "As for ones moral compass, I'm sure this man knew the teaching and beliefs of Catholic Church being a teacher."

And he could no more separate himself from his own humanity than anyone else could. It's despicable for ANY employer, religious or not, to ask people to give up their need for love, companionship and family, just to keep a job. Why should the church require people to stop being HUMAN, just so they can be Catholic?

knowledge is power wrote, "Exclusion,privilege and hypocrisy???"

Yes. Exclusion, as in treating good and decent human beings as if they were criminals and outsiders. Privilege, as in all the rules that are constantly bent and broken for Christians of all stripes, and how they are allowed to treat good people with scorn. Hypocrisy, as in firing this man for something that all good humans desire, while other heterosexual Catholics who no doubt divorce, use contraceptives, or even masturbate, get a free pass.

knowledge is power wrote, "The only thing I find wrong is these children did follow their faith in this catholic school. They broke commandments."

I'll assume you meant that they "DIDN'T" follow their faith. I'm GLAD they didn't, if their faith asks them to shun valuable members of society, and to treat love as if the Catholic Church held the copyright on the only allowable kind. These kids appear to be more aware of goodness and charity than most religious people I speak to.

knowledge is power wrote, "As serious as you are about gays and marriage. I'm even more serious about following ones religion."

I'm serious about treating people good, and fairly, unless they are harming others physically or through violations of their freedom. That includes gay people. I'm sorry that your religion sees us as unworthy of equitable consideration as fellow humans.

knowledge is power wrote, "Just because you don't take ones religion serious doesn't mean others don't!"

I will take anything seriously, as long as it leads a person to proper behavior toward others, and thoughtful consideration of their needs. But I don't see religion do that. Religion makes people smug and superior, it makes them condemn others for things that aren't crimes, and it makes them abandon critical, realistic thinking in favor of magic stories.

I sincerely hope that this incident leads ALL these kids to eventually reject religion entirely. They will be much better people for it.
Sorry you feel that way.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#31
Jan 9, 2014
 
knowledge is power wrote:
The only time God told someone to kill their child was with Abraham. This was only to test his faith.
Why would an omniscient god need to "test" a person?

The reason why we (humans) conduct tests is because there's something we don't know that we want to learn. Teachers may test students to see if they've understood the class subject. Engineers may test materials to learn what properties they have, or how they'll perform under various conditions. We test the water with our toe, to see if it's a comfortable temperature.

We test because we don't know something.

Why should a god need to do that? Wouldn't a god KNOW ahead of time what the result of such a test would be? Wouldn't God have KNOWN what Abraham would do, WITHOUT testing him? I've never understood this story. It anthropomorphizes God, making him into a being who must conduct tests in order to gain knowledge. That's fine behavior for a human, but it makes no sense for a being that is supposedly "all-knowing".

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#32
Jan 9, 2014
 
knowledge is power wrote:
Sorry you feel that way.
I'm sorry you couldn't explain or defend your religion, which punishes people for being human.
knowledge is power

Clarksburg, WV

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#34
Jan 9, 2014
 
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>Why would an omniscient god need to "test" a person?

The reason why we (humans) conduct tests is because there's something we don't know that we want to learn. Teachers may test students to see if they've understood the class subject. Engineers may test materials to learn what properties they have, or how they'll perform under various conditions. We test the water with our toe, to see if it's a comfortable temperature.

We test because we don't know something.

Why should a god need to do that? Wouldn't a god KNOW ahead of time what the result of such a test would be? Wouldn't God have KNOWN what Abraham would do, WITHOUT testing him? I've never understood this story. It anthropomorphizes God, making him into a being who must conduct tests in order to gain knowledge. That's fine behavior for a human, but it makes no sense for a being that is supposedly "all-knowing".
Hahaha you misinterpreted the story. First God is not human. God gave free will to all of us with Adam and Eve and the apple remember. Therefor you have a choice to make right or wrong. The test was not one of knowledge or power or strength. It was of the measure of faith? Could you give your flesh and blood for my name. That's powerful! God is telling of these things to show how intense this love relationship can be.
He does know all,but we all have free will to make a good choice or bad choice.
knowledge is power

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#35
Jan 9, 2014
 
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>I'm sorry you couldn't explain or defend your religion, which punishes people for being human.
Please be more specific. My religion doesn't punish one for simply being human. There are 10 rules to follow by. The commandments. The rest comes from scripture, tradition or confirmation of usually gospel from Pope and council. A scripture that's in all New Testament bibles. Tradition that has been around for 2000 years. Popes and council have been around since beginning to make sure Catholics understand their duties and faithful obligation. Also to interpret the teachings of the bible so it couldn't be taught to ones advantages.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

Seattle, WA

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#36
Jan 11, 2014
 
knowledge is power wrote:
Hahaha you misinterpreted the story. First God is not human.
Yeah, I would hope he'd rise above the lame human reaction of laughing at people who misinterpret his stories. He'd probably try to be more understanding and explain it another way. That's what I would do (of course, I'm only human).
knowledge is power wrote:
God gave free will to all of us with Adam and Eve and the apple remember.
God also deprived Adam and Eve of any knowledge of good and evil, and them blamed them for not knowing the difference. Why is that moral? That's a terrible reason to punish someone that you've deliberately created to be innocent. And then he punishes everyone born after them for their crimes. This is unconscionably unjust. And this evil event, which took place about a week into the new creation, and would spoil it for the next 6 thousand-30 billion years, wasn't foreseen by God? And this is all the fault of HUMANS?

No, this story REEKS of myth. If God has a problem with MY interpretation of his book, then he'd needs to do better than send people who will laugh at me for disagreeing with them. That's no way for him to win converts.
knowledge is power wrote:
Therefor you have a choice to make right or wrong.
We all make that choice many times every day. But it doesn't have anything to do with which god you believe in, or whether someone believes in a god or not. It doesn't have anything to do with which gender we feel attraction toward.

Making a choice between right and wrong is about not causing people harm. It's about providing help when it's needed, and showing kindness to other humans.

There's nothing "moral" in saying that someone has done "wrong" because they did not choose the correct religion, or because they arent attracted toward whom you think they should be.
knowledge is power wrote:
The test was not one of knowledge or power or strength. It was of the measure of faith? Could you give your flesh and blood for my name. That's powerful!
Not to me. The very phrase "Could you" illustrates my point. It represents a lack of knowledge. "Could" something happen? Who knows?

Well, someone who knows EVERTHING should know.

It doesn't matter what is being tested, power, strength OR faith. Why didn't God KNOW ahead of time whether Abraham would obey? An all-knowing being would have known. No tests of any kind should ever be required for a being that knows EVERYTHING.
knowledge is power wrote:
God is telling of these things to show how intense this love relationship can be.
Then he should have a better understanding of what gay people go through.
knowledge is power wrote:
He does know all,but we all have free will to make a good choice or bad choice.
This is very contradictory to me. If someone knows everything, then how can we have free will?

If all of history is like a story, and God has every chapter memorized, and already knows the ending, then exactly what are we free to do? We can not change the story. We cannot do anything that he is not expecting. We can do nothing to surprise him. We can only fulfill the story as it was already written.

If any being has knowledge of the future, then we are all just puppets of the pre-existing narrative. We HAVE to do exactly what God already knows we are going to do.

If free will is to be possible, then no being can have knowledge of the future. It's the only logical possibility.

And I agree that we should all try to make "good choices", but that doesn't mean people can FORCE themselves to believe in a religion that they don't find convincing. It doesn't mean people can force themselves to feel love & attraction toward anyone they don't feel it toward.

And it simply isn't "moral" to punish people for these aspects of their lives.

“Unconvinced”

Since: Nov 09

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#37
Jan 11, 2014
 
knowledge is power wrote:
Please be more specific.
I thought I had. And your only reply was that you were sorry I felt that way.
knowledge is power wrote:
My religion doesn't punish one for simply being human.
Isn't a "human" thing to feel love and attraction? Isn't it human to desire companionship with someone who makes you happy?
knowledge is power wrote:
There are 10 rules to follow by. The commandments.
And which commandment did the vice-principal Zmuda break?
knowledge is power wrote:
The rest comes from scripture, tradition or confirmation of usually gospel from Pope and council. A scripture that's in all New Testament bibles.
And where does it say to fire and shun people who are well-qualified for their jobs, if they don't constantly obey EVERY biblical tenet that exists? Which chapter and verse says that?

Are we to assume that Zmuda was the ONLY employee on staff who did NOT follow every rule of Catholic doctrine? Everyone else was perfect, and had no reason to be fired?
knowledge is power wrote:
Tradition that has been around for 2000 years.
Oh, THAT'S a good reason to treat gay people like social outsiders. Because we've ALWAYS done it that way!
knowledge is power wrote:
Popes and council have been around since beginning to make sure Catholics understand their duties and faithful obligation. Also to interpret the teachings of the bible so it couldn't be taught to ones advantages.
Good idea. No one other than the approved heirarchy should have the advantage. Other people might interpret the book incorrectly, and then you'd have other demoninations, with other ideas about right and wrong. And that might involve treating people well, regardless of which gender they're attracted to.

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