We're Not As Free As We Think: Perhaps Religion Has Something To Do With It

Jan 14, 2013 Full story: www.opednews.com 115

The Fraser Institute and Glen Beck's The Blaze nail it: America is not # 1 in freedom and religion may have a lot to do with it.

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Chance

Grove City, PA

#1 Jan 14, 2013
There's only one answer to this. Find a way to let people do whatever they want relationship wise without forcing others to participate. When florists, bakers, wedding venues, etc. can choose not to participate in gay weddings without fear of lawsuits, then we might be on to something. Notaries should also have the freedom not to participate without fear of losing their jobs. Gays have shot themselves in the foot by trying to make this the "next black." It isn't. This is not a civil rights issue. It is a lifestyle choice issue. No kid ever came home and announced to his parents, "Guess what. I'm black." No black kid was ever taking a radical departure from his parents and other members of his family. They were all black because black truly is a matter of definable genetics. Gay is not. Yet gays try to treat this like other people's religious values in this issue are of no consequence at all. In the gay issue you absolutely cannot force your "freedom" on the populace and force them to not only accept your lifestyle choice, but participate unless they want to face dire consequences. That is in no way going to raise us in the freedom ratings. In balance, since there are way more Christians than there are people who choose a gay lifestyle, it is going to lower our rating.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#2 Jan 14, 2013
Sorry, but no other allegedly God blessed forms of bigotry are legally permissible, why should this one be? The Christian florist, etc cannot discriminate against others on the basis of their religion, race, nationality, etc, even though the Bible clearly says that they are not only allowed to do so, but in some cases required to. Why should they be given the special right to discriminate against us when we are legally denied the right to do unto them as they have done unto us?
Chance

Grove City, PA

#3 Jan 14, 2013
If gays really want freedom in America, you can start by halting the use of words like "homophobe" and "bigot."
Chance

Grove City, PA

#4 Jan 14, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
Sorry, but no other allegedly God blessed forms of bigotry are legally permissible, why should this one be? The Christian florist, etc cannot discriminate against others on the basis of their religion, race, nationality, etc, even though the Bible clearly says that they are not only allowed to do so, but in some cases required to. Why should they be given the special right to discriminate against us when we are legally denied the right to do unto them as they have done unto us?
Then you clearly won't be happy until no one has the right to participate in their chosen religion. You are NOT an advocate of freedom. You are rather a vehicle by which it will be taken away. Freedom ratings will plummet if you get what you want. Are you so myopically focused on your own desires that you can't see that?
Daniel

Baton Rouge, LA

#5 Jan 14, 2013
Maybe we can after you stop being a "homophobe" and "bigot"

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#6 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
Then you clearly won't be happy until no one has the right to participate in their chosen religion.
Unsurprisingly, once again, sadly mistaken. You have every right to fully participate in your chosen religious beliefs, as long as you aren't sacrificing virgins or doing other harm to the flock. But when you are participating in the public square, your right to fully participate in that choice of religion has already been restricted as I have noted and you ignored completely.
Chance wrote:
You are NOT an advocate of freedom.
In what you are passing off as your mind perhaps, but what you pass off as your mind is one seriously f*cked up place.
Chance wrote:
You are rather a vehicle by which it will be taken away.
You want the freedom to punish others because you claim God says you get to. Well honey, that is a freedom that doesn't sit well in a civil and secular society and sometimes the individual's freedom has to be limited to increase the freedom of everybody.
Chance wrote:
Freedom ratings will plummet if you get what you want.
Business owners no longer having the freedom, let alone a right, to take their God out on the gay folk increases the freedom rating for us dear, not decreases it. Because you still have the freedom to believe in your hateful f*cking version of God and we have the freedom to fully participate in civil society without the fear of you inflicting your beliefs on us.
Chance wrote:
Are you so myopically focused on your own desires that you can't see that?
Dear, you still haven't answered the central question of why you would want the right to discriminate against the gay folk even though you have already allowed them to put the kibosh on any other God blessed bigotry you might claim?
Agayman

Laguna Beach, CA

#7 Jan 14, 2013
Chance,
I just don't know whether you should come out of the closet, or that you should remain in so that you keep your foolish bigotry to yourself.

“Luke laughs at hypocrites!”

Since: Sep 10

Palm Springs, California

#8 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
<quoted text>
Then you clearly won't be happy until no one has the right to participate in their chosen religion. You are NOT an advocate of freedom. You are rather a vehicle by which it will be taken away. Freedom ratings will plummet if you get what you want. Are you so myopically focused on your own desires that you can't see that?
So, in other words, YOUR idea of "freedom" is the ability to deny others freedom, so that YOU can have all YOUR freedoms. How generous.
Deja vu all over Again

Alpharetta, GA

#9 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
There's only one answer to this. Find a way to let people do whatever they want relationship wise without forcing others to participate. When florists, bakers, wedding venues, etc. can choose not to participate in gay weddings without fear of lawsuits, then we might be on to something. Notaries should also have the freedom not to participate without fear of losing their jobs. Gays have shot themselves in the foot by trying to make this the "next black." It isn't. This is not a civil rights issue. It is a lifestyle choice issue. No kid ever came home and announced to his parents, "Guess what. I'm black." No black kid was ever taking a radical departure from his parents and other members of his family. They were all black because black truly is a matter of definable genetics. Gay is not. Yet gays try to treat this like other people's religious values in this issue are of no consequence at all. In the gay issue you absolutely cannot force your "freedom" on the populace and force them to not only accept your lifestyle choice, but participate unless they want to face dire consequences. That is in no way going to raise us in the freedom ratings. In balance, since there are way more Christians than there are people who choose a gay lifestyle, it is going to lower our rating.
The National Guard insured that privately owned lunch counters served black people in the early 1960s
.
Perhaps the National Guard should insure that privately owned businesses serve gay people in the early 2013s?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp8f109F0x1...

Since: Oct 10

San Francisco

#10 Jan 14, 2013
It's no surprise to find Chance/Snickers/Pam here spreading the usual hatred and stupidity. And multiple times. Looks like he/she/it had quite a productive day getting the hate recharged in church yesterday.
Chance

Grove City, PA

#11 Jan 14, 2013
Deja vu all over Again wrote:
<quoted text>
The National Guard insured that privately owned lunch counters served black people in the early 1960s
.
Perhaps the National Guard should insure that privately owned businesses serve gay people in the early 2013s?
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lp8f109F0x1...
Go right ahead. If you will carefully reread what I said, perhaps you will then not that I didn't say gays couldn't do whatever they want, the above scenario included. I just said that the USA will rate lower, much lower, on the freedom scale once gays achieve their objectives.
censoredagain

Fayetteville, NC

#12 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
There's only one answer to this. Find a way to let people do whatever they want relationship wise without forcing others to participate. When florists, bakers, wedding venues, etc. can choose not to participate in gay weddings without fear of lawsuits, then we might be on to something.
On this point I agree with you. A private person or entity should have the right to discriminate for what ever reason, rather that reason is loathsome or not they should have that right because that is what freedom is about.
Chance wrote:
Notaries should also have the freedom not to participate without fear of losing their jobs.
n this point I strongly disagree. The reason being that the notaries is performing a Government job; though a private citizen/entity should have the right to discriminate the government never has that right. What the Government does for one it must do for all what the government does not do for one it should not do for any.
Chance wrote:
OGays have shot themselves in the foot by trying to make this the "next black." It isn't. This is not a civil rights issue. It is a lifestyle choice issue. No kid ever came home and announced to his parents, "Guess what. I'm black." No black kid was ever taking a radical departure from his parents and other members of his family. They were all black because black truly is a matter of definable genetics. Gay is not.
This is a moot point in regards to freedom but science is showing that genetics along with the in utero conditions define one's sexuality. In the human condition sexuality is not a chosen lifestyle however one's religious belief is. So religion is a lifestyle choice homosexuality like heterosexuality is not chosen. Besides if homosexuality is a choice then what the heck is it's selling point?
Chance

Grove City, PA

#13 Jan 14, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>Unsurprisingly, once again, sadly mistaken. You have every right to fully participate in your chosen religious beliefs, as long as you aren't sacrificing virgins or doing other harm to the flock. But when you are participating in the public square, your right to fully participate in that choice of religion has already been restricted as I have noted and you ignored completely. <quoted text>In what you are passing off as your mind perhaps, but what you pass off as your mind is one seriously f*cked up place. <quoted text>You want the freedom to punish others because you claim God says you get to. Well honey, that is a freedom that doesn't sit well in a civil and secular society and sometimes the individual's freedom has to be limited to increase the freedom of everybody. <quoted text>Business owners no longer having the freedom, let alone a right, to take their God out on the gay folk increases the freedom rating for us dear, not decreases it. Because you still have the freedom to believe in your hateful f*cking version of God and we have the freedom to fully participate in civil society without the fear of you inflicting your beliefs on us. <quoted text>Dear, you still haven't answered the central question of why you would want the right to discriminate against the gay folk even though you have already allowed them to put the kibosh on any other God blessed bigotry you might claim?
Rick, Rick, Rick, your myopia is a serious affliction. Why can't you see that every word you say is not only a threat to freedom in this country but also underlines that freedom has already been greatly reduced? Sometimes you have to look around a corner or seriously see through someone else's eyes to understand. But it is abundantly clear that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.
Chance

Grove City, PA

#14 Jan 14, 2013
Curteese wrote:
<quoted text>So, in other words, YOUR idea of "freedom" is the ability to deny others freedom, so that YOU can have all YOUR freedoms. How generous.
Did I not just say you can do whatever you want in your relationships, but freedom is eroded when you force others to participate? You know, without the accompanying censure of Christians and trying to co-opt Christian institutions for their own use, gays might have made a lot more progress toward their goals. Oh wait, those ARE their goals. No matter. You are Progressives, and Progressives are all about eroding freedom. I'm grateful that somebody is noting that we are not so free any more.
Chance

Grove City, PA

#15 Jan 14, 2013
censoredagain wrote:
<quoted text>On this point I agree with you. A private person or entity should have the right to discriminate for what ever reason, rather that reason is loathsome or not they should have that right because that is what freedom is about. <quoted text> n this point I strongly disagree. The reason being that the notaries is performing a Government job; though a private citizen/entity should have the right to discriminate the government never has that right. What the Government does for one it must do for all what the government does not do for one it should not do for any.<quoted text> This is a moot point in regards to freedom but science is showing that genetics along with the in utero conditions define one's sexuality. In the human condition sexuality is not a chosen lifestyle however one's religious belief is. So religion is a lifestyle choice homosexuality like heterosexuality is not chosen. Besides if homosexuality is a choice then what the heck is it's selling point?
To answer your last question, its selling points are rebellion against established religions, license to throw out moral precepts that used to govern sexuality, sticking it to religious people of all persuasions, and the titillation that comes with knowing you are doing something forbidden. I suspect that when gays achieve their goal of "normalizing" gay, that fewer people will be attracted to gay and more will have moved on to sexual activity that is still forbidden and frowned upon - if there is anything left. The pedophiles are hard on your heels to normalize pedophilia - just another sexual orientation.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#16 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
Rick, Rick, Rick, your myopia is a serious affliction. Why can't you see that every word you say is not only a threat to freedom in this country but also underlines that freedom has already been greatly reduced? Sometimes you have to look around a corner or seriously see through someone else's eyes to understand. But it is abundantly clear that YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND.
Sweetie, what I understand is that you are whining that your individual freedom to punish people you have chosen to hate is being diminished in favor of their collective freedom to participate in our civil society free from your desire to punish them because you choose to believe God is cool with it. What am I not understanding here? You are insisting on the freedom to be a selfish, mean-spirited prick as a business owner in our shared society. You might think that God gives you that special right, but the Constitution doesn't.
censoredagain

Fayetteville, NC

#17 Jan 14, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
Sorry, but no other allegedly God blessed forms of bigotry are legally permissible, why should this one be? The Christian florist, etc cannot discriminate against others on the basis of their religion, race, nationality, etc, even though the Bible clearly says that they are not only allowed to do so, but in some cases required to. Why should they be given the special right to discriminate against us when we are legally denied the right to do unto them as they have done unto us?
The paradigm of your argument is wrong in regards to freedom. The question you are posing is why is this discrimination allowed yet other forms of discrimination not, bolstering your position that discrimination based on sexuality should not be allowed. However if one truly supports individual freedom then one would support the individuals right TO DISCRIMINATE not matter the reason! The underpinning of freedom is TOLERANCE and with out tolerance there is no freedom. Tolerance is putting up with those things we dislike or disdain and private discrimination even if something is open to the public is apart of freedom. One cannot support freedom by curtailing it. Either you support individual freedom or you don't!

“Equality First”

Since: Jan 09

St. Louis, MO

#18 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
<quoted text>
Did I not just say you can do whatever you want in your relationships, but freedom is eroded when you force others to participate?
When has anyone every been forced to participate in a relationship? You may be forced to not discriminate on who you sell goods to, but that is not participating in the relationship. The only ones who participate in a same sex marriage, for instance, is the couple. The official who performs the ceremony may participate in that limited fashion, but he or she does not participate in the actual relationship, and neither does anyone else.

Since: Dec 08

El Paso, TX

#19 Jan 14, 2013
Cool, legalized discrimination. Who you gonna go after next, Mexican Americans, African Americans? How's about we just go after bigoted Christians? No wonder people are leaving your churches in droves, even a majority of Catholics support SS marriage regardless of the Pope and his Bishops.

Damned fool! Screw your kind of religion you ignorant hater.
Chance wrote:
There's only one answer to this. Find a way to let people do whatever they want relationship wise without forcing others to participate. When florists, bakers, wedding venues, etc. can choose not to participate in gay weddings without fear of lawsuits, then we might be on to something. Notaries should also have the freedom not to participate without fear of losing their jobs. Gays have shot themselves in the foot by trying to make this the "next black." It isn't. This is not a civil rights issue. It is a lifestyle choice issue. No kid ever came home and announced to his parents, "Guess what. I'm black." No black kid was ever taking a radical departure from his parents and other members of his family. They were all black because black truly is a matter of definable genetics. Gay is not. Yet gays try to treat this like other people's religious values in this issue are of no consequence at all. In the gay issue you absolutely cannot force your "freedom" on the populace and force them to not only accept your lifestyle choice, but participate unless they want to face dire consequences. That is in no way going to raise us in the freedom ratings. In balance, since there are way more Christians than there are people who choose a gay lifestyle, it is going to lower our rating.
david traversa

Rosario, Argentina

#20 Jan 14, 2013
Chance wrote:
<quoted text>
To answer your last question, its selling points are rebellion against established religions, license to throw out moral precepts that used to govern sexuality, sticking it to religious people of all persuasions, and the titillation that comes with knowing you are doing something forbidden. I suspect that when gays achieve their goal of "normalizing" gay, that fewer people will be attracted to gay and more will have moved on to sexual activity that is still forbidden and frowned upon - if there is anything left. The pedophiles are hard on your heels to normalize pedophilia - just another sexual orientation.
Pedophilia could never be a sexual orientation eligible for legalization because it wouldn't involve two consenting adults; don't you know that? Or are you the type that will blabber away in search of "effects" without giving your tiresome verbosity a minute's thought?

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