Too edgy? Too tame? Gay pride parades...

Too edgy? Too tame? Gay pride parades spark debate

There are 191 comments on the Tri-cityherald.com story from Sep 16, 2013, titled Too edgy? Too tame? Gay pride parades spark debate. In it, Tri-cityherald.com reports that:

Miss Veda Chardonnay, center, rides in a car during the 30th Annual Dallas Gay Pride Parade, Sunday, Sept.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Tri-cityherald.com.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#130 Sep 18, 2013
Fa-Foxy wrote:
<quoted text>
I think we have too many boxes and categories. Just let people be who they are without so many labels.
From the earliest age we are labeled and categorized and forced to conform to what's expected form those labels and categories, and that's wrong, both on a moral level and a practical level, because obviously not all people can be assigned to neat clearly delineated boxes and labels like that.
Just looking people in the category "gay men" shows a great variety of types right there. And obviously those types of gay men can be completely different from one another.
Just let people be who they are. Admittedly it's an extremely radical concept. We'll call it "FREEDOM ! " :)
I tend to agree, which is why I don't think people should be forced to choose between just 2 genders when clearly they are neither, or are some combination of the 2.

That said, as long as the overwhelming majority of people in the world are either clearly male or female, then those who aren't will continue to stick out and likely feel out of place in society.

“RAINBOW POWER!”

Since: Oct 08

I Am What I Am.

#131 Sep 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Sexual attraction is hardly the same as thinking you're the opposite gender than your genetic or biologically expressed gender.
Of course not, but it's possible that the biological causes of both are the same or similar, and the studies show that the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ that can show signs of being intersexed.

Regardless, we're all in this fight together.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#132 Sep 18, 2013
Wolfgang E B wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course not, but it's possible that the biological causes of both are the same or similar, and the studies show that the brain is a sexually dimorphic organ that can show signs of being intersexed.
Regardless, we're all in this fight together.
The numbers of transgenders are so small and the number of brains studied are even smaller that any results are statistically inconclusive, and will likely remain so.

Unless they can be identified and studied at an early age, we'll likely never know if changes seen in their brains are a cause or a result of transgenderism, or merely a completely unrelated coincidence.

I understand these people WANT to be the other gender, and BELIEVE they are the other gender, but I have yet to be convinced that's because they actually ARE the other gender anywhere than in their own minds. That indicates to me it's more likely a psychiatric disorder; no different than people who are convinced they are a lamppost or an alien species. Would you give them a lightbulb or a spaceship, or would you recommend psychiatric treatment?

Most transgendered people can't even explain it; don't be surprised when the rest of us don't either.

“ WOOF ! ”

Since: Nov 12

Coolidge, AZ

#133 Sep 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
The numbers of transgenders are so small and the number of brains studied are even smaller that any results are statistically inconclusive, and will likely remain so.
Unless they can be identified and studied at an early age, we'll likely never know if changes seen in their brains are a cause or a result of transgenderism, or merely a completely unrelated coincidence.
I understand these people WANT to be the other gender, and BELIEVE they are the other gender, but I have yet to be convinced that's because they actually ARE the other gender anywhere than in their own minds. That indicates to me it's more likely a psychiatric disorder; no different than people who are convinced they are a lamppost or an alien species. Would you give them a lightbulb or a spaceship, or would you recommend psychiatric treatment?
Most transgendered people can't even explain it; don't be surprised when the rest of us don't either.
They aren't required to explain it and shouldn't have to.
DEDEH

Germany

#134 Sep 18, 2013
DANGEROUS !!!!LAUGH CAN CAUSE DEATH

READ HERE

http://tinyurl.com/oudqcb4

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#135 Sep 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I tend to agree, which is why I don't think people should be forced to choose between just 2 genders when clearly they are neither, or are some combination of the 2.
That said, as long as the overwhelming majority of people in the world are either clearly male or female, then those who aren't will continue to stick out and likely feel out of place in society.
Seems to me most can't clearly be divided into 2 or even 3 distinct genders, once you start looking past the clothes. Much like sexual orientation exists on a continuum, gender experience and expression seems to vary widely with individuals as well.

I have to go with letting people express themselves as they like, rather than trying to make everyone similar, especially along lines that don't fit them. People are more creative when they are less restrained by artificial expectations that don't protect us or provide any benefits.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#136 Sep 18, 2013
Excuse me? Women have to prove they are as good as men? Why would there be a presumption that women would be less competent than men? Equal pay for equal work, period.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, smart successful businesses know that you pay people based on their value to the company. They didn't want to be forced to pay every employee on the same scale just because of their gender, regardless what that person was worth to the company. That's where the radical feminists screwed up- they never mentioned that women should ensure they are as qualified as men or as valuable to the company as men; just that they should be paid on the same scale regardless of their value.
Unfortunately too many women still insist on making themselves less valuable to a company by their choice of career field, or education level, or self-inflicted family obligations which limit their availability for work.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#137 Sep 18, 2013
The majority can't find their own frigging country on a world map.

This country was founded on individualism, not collectivism. I do not worship at the altar of conformiy, or any other.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
But it never got much traction until whites joined the cause in large numbers in both the state & federal legislatures & the general populace.
I'll always embrace the diverse community in which I live.
You can feel free to self-segregate if you wish; just don't complain when people treat you differently because you choose to set yourself apart from the majority.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#138 Sep 18, 2013
Before pontificating on this subject, maybe you should do some actual research.

Gender identity is hard-wired; it is as immutable and innate as orientation. There's several decades of study on the issue. It relates to the physical body and the psychological aspects of gender.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Just not welcome enough to give them a letter.....(as in SLGBT, or HLGBT)
No, it's gender which fuels orientation identity. A male attracted to another male is identified as a homosexual, while a male attracted to a female is identified as a heterosexual. I'm not sure that someone who is physically male and are attracted to another male would ever be considered heterosexual. I'd say most people would consider them to be homosexual because they are attracted to the same sex as they are.
I've seen no credible evidence that anyone born genetically male is "hardwired" as a female, anymore than they are "hardwired" as a cow or a lamppost instead of a human being. I realize they may choose to identify more with the societal created feminine "norms", but that's hardly proof they are actually a "woman trapped in a man's body". It's just evidence they want to be a woman instead of a man.
Imagine how ridiculous it would sound if someone claimed they were really an Emu trapped in a human's body.
If a TG or drag queen moved into my neighborhood they'd likely be treated as anyone else; it would be based on how they present themselves to their neighbors. If they are honest, friendly, hard working, and take an interest in the local community, then they would likely be treated with the same dignity & respect anyone else would receive. But if they try to use the women's locker room at the local gym in spite of being physically male, or try to change the local 4th of July parade into a "TG/drag pride parade", then they're likely to be viewed with suspicion.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#140 Sep 19, 2013
Fa-Foxy wrote:
<quoted text>
They aren't required to explain it and shouldn't have to.
If they want my tax dollars to fund their sex change operation- aka Bradley Manning- then YES they DO need to explain it.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#141 Sep 19, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Excuse me? Women have to prove they are as good as men? Why would there be a presumption that women would be less competent than men? Equal pay for equal work, period.
<quoted text>
Where did I say that?

Oh that's right, I didn't.

EVERYONE should have to prove they are of value to their employer; men AND women.

"Equal pay for equal work" is a catchy slogan, but totally meaningless as well. If you are less educated (male OR female), have less experience (male OR female), are less reliable (male OR female), require special work hours (male OR female), etc, etc, then your pay should reflect that- MALE OR FEMALE.

Would you demand a man who has NO education and NO experience and NO leadership skills (etc) to be paid the same as a man who DOES have those qualifications just because they're doing the same job?

Your pay should be based on your value to the company; not some arbitrary figure determined by govt bean counters.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#142 Sep 19, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
The majority can't find their own frigging country on a world map.
This country was founded on individualism, not collectivism. I do not worship at the altar of conformiy, or any other.
<quoted text>
Good for you; neither do I.

But I AM able to recognize that those who do everything in their power to set themselves apart from the rest of society will be treated as such by the rest of society.

Fly your freak flag to your little heart's content; just don't complain when people treat you differently because of your it.

“Equality First”

Since: Jan 09

Location hidden

#143 Sep 19, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>

I understand these people WANT to be the other gender, and BELIEVE they are the other gender, but I have yet to be convinced that's because they actually ARE the other gender anywhere than in their own minds. That indicates to me it's more likely a psychiatric disorder; no different than people who are convinced they are a lamppost or an alien species. Would you give them a lightbulb or a spaceship, or would you recommend psychiatric treatment?
Most transgendered people can't even explain it; don't be surprised when the rest of us don't either.
I'm not saying that you are right or wrong as to whether it is just in their own minds, or if there is reality to the condition. But I think before we make an assumption either way, it needs more study. I would caution against sweeping generalizations. After all your above paragraph could have been written no so long ago about gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. I do, however, agree with your subsequent post about public dollars for sex reassignment.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#144 Sep 19, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
Before pontificating on this subject, maybe you should do some actual research.
Gender identity is hard-wired; it is as immutable and innate as orientation. There's several decades of study on the issue. It relates to the physical body and the psychological aspects of gender.
<quoted text>
And yet there is significant disagreement among even the most knowledgeable researchers & medical & mental health professionals as to why a small percentage of people believe they are a different gender than their physical/genetically expressed gender.

Even your hypothalamus study doesn't really help, since in MtF transgenders that area of the hypothalamus was actually significantly smaller (about 25% smaller) than even genetic/biological women. If they are claiming that as proof they're really women, then it should be about the SAME size as genetic/biological women.

If anything, it may be proof there is some physical defect in the brain of those who think they are a "woman trapped in a man's body".

“ WOOF ! ”

Since: Nov 12

Coolidge, AZ

#145 Sep 19, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
If they want my tax dollars to fund their sex change operation- aka Bradley Manning- then YES they DO need to explain it.
I am not, and never said I was, in favor of taxpayers paying for someone's sex change operation.

Your'e implication that I ever said such a thing is A LIE.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#146 Sep 19, 2013
RalphB wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not saying that you are right or wrong as to whether it is just in their own minds, or if there is reality to the condition. But I think before we make an assumption either way, it needs more study. I would caution against sweeping generalizations. After all your above paragraph could have been written no so long ago about gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. I do, however, agree with your subsequent post about public dollars for sex reassignment.
I agree there needs to be more study. I've always supported that because obviously some people are affected by this phenomenon and deserve the most appropriate treatment options- whether that's counseling or sex reassignment or whatever.

I'm well aware of the similarities in the arguments, but it's a matter of degrees. And until their is conclusive proof that sexual orientation is genetic or innate, then unfortunately the anti-gays will always have that as an argument.

But there are a couple of significant differences:
-Homosexuality is much more prevalent, so statistically significant studies can be done.
-Those studies have shown that after correcting for the effects of societal bias, homosexuals are no more likely to suffer psychiatric problems than heterosexuals.
-Every study I've seen on transgendered people show they usually experience a lifetime of psychiatric problems (depression, negative body image, etc) even after factoring in the obvious societal bias. Most are no more content after their sex reassignment surgery than before.

Yes, more studies definitely need to be done.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#147 Sep 19, 2013
Fa-Foxy wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not, and never said I was, in favor of taxpayers paying for someone's sex change operation.
Your'e implication that I ever said such a thing is A LIE.
You make the blanket statement that they aren't required to explain it.

I'm saying that they ARE required to explain it, especially if they want my tax dollars. Or if they expect me to support them using the same public restrooms or locker rooms. Or if they expect me to support them being in positions of authority.

Is it a valid benign medical condition which just requires a little snip-snip here or a couple of implants there, or are they just crazier than a shithouse rat?

Inquiring minds want to know.

“Reality is better than truth.”

Since: Nov 09

Indianapolis

#148 Sep 19, 2013
"That's where the radical feminists screwed up- they never mentioned that women should ensure they are as qualified as men or as valuable to the company as men; just that they should be paid on the same scale regardless of their value.
Unfortunately too many women still insist on making themselves less valuable to a company by their choice of career field, or education level, or self-inflicted family obligations which limit their availability for work."

JUST LIKE MEN. You put an onus on women that men don't have to deal with. Studies show that many women earn less than men even if they are MORE qualified for the same position.

If two people are doing the same job equally well, they should get the same pay. You falsely equate education with competence; in the past, I worked with many degree-holders who were frigging clueless. Those educated leaders you praise were the ones who sank enron, remember.

What could be more arbitrary than an assessment of one's "value to the company"?
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did I say that?
Oh that's right, I didn't.
EVERYONE should have to prove they are of value to their employer; men AND women.
"Equal pay for equal work" is a catchy slogan, but totally meaningless as well. If you are less educated (male OR female), have less experience (male OR female), are less reliable (male OR female), require special work hours (male OR female), etc, etc, then your pay should reflect that- MALE OR FEMALE.
Would you demand a man who has NO education and NO experience and NO leadership skills (etc) to be paid the same as a man who DOES have those qualifications just because they're doing the same job?
Your pay should be based on your value to the company; not some arbitrary figure determined by govt bean counters.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#149 Sep 19, 2013
cpeter1313 wrote:
"That's where the radical feminists screwed up- they never mentioned that women should ensure they are as qualified as men or as valuable to the company as men; just that they should be paid on the same scale regardless of their value.
Unfortunately too many women still insist on making themselves less valuable to a company by their choice of career field, or education level, or self-inflicted family obligations which limit their availability for work."
JUST LIKE MEN. You put an onus on women that men don't have to deal with. Studies show that many women earn less than men even if they are MORE qualified for the same position.
If two people are doing the same job equally well, they should get the same pay. You falsely equate education with competence; in the past, I worked with many degree-holders who were frigging clueless. Those educated leaders you praise were the ones who sank enron, remember.
What could be more arbitrary than an assessment of one's "value to the company"?
<quoted text>
No, women AND men have the exact same burden to demonstrate their worth to their employer.

That discussion should be solely between the employer and the employee- NOT the government. If you believe the wage offered is too low, then are free to decline the job or renegotiate.

The govt simply has NO business dictating what companies pay their employees.

“RAINBOW POWER!”

Since: Oct 08

I Am What I Am.

#150 Sep 19, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
Most are no more content after their sex reassignment surgery than before.
Where did you get that notion? Most trans people are far more content after treatment. Unfortunately, the few who aren't get all the publicity, so those are the ones you hear about, but they're actually quite rare.

Here in the US, there's a good system in place for evaluating and treating trans people. You really should learn more about this issue.

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