Psychologists to review stance on gays

[TomChicago]

lex70 wrote:

<quoted text>
No one is asking anyone to change their orientation. It is the gays themselves who are seeking to change and you want to deny them that right. Why can't you live and let live instead of trying to force your intolerance on others!?

Nobody is denying them the right to seek "change". The question is what are they changing? Mere behavior change is, I suspect, not what they're seeking, and even "reparative" therapists, faced with the results of "treatment" failure and pain, are now selling no more than that--a just-say-no "therapy".

[Psy]

lex70 wrote:

<quoted text>
Extremely dangerous...life-threatening.. .sounds overstated...almost alarmist. What is dangerous about helping people live within the confines of their beliefs. It seems harmful not to help people who are feeling that they are living outside of the will of God. Letting them deal with this struggle alone or trying to force them to give up their deepfelt religious beliefs sounds harmful. Try looking at it from a different perspective.

There is empirically based evidence that conversion therapies have caused harm. Conversion therapy can cause symptomatic depression and social problems by contributing to an already damage self-esteem.
Quoting Dr. Garnets (Chair of APA’s Board for the Advancement of Psychology in the Public Interest) about conversion therapies “feed upon society’s prejudice towards gays and may exacerbate a client’s problems with poor self-esteem, shame, and guilt.”

According to Haldeman (1994), religious-based programs are “possibly exacerbating the harm to naïve, shame-hidden counselees.” In fact, these religious-based programs and/or movements themselves (by ignoring empirical evidence) demonstrate that people are feeling harmed by their activities. Psychologists should work to reduce as much as possible “stereotypes, discrimination, and environmental barriers” already seen in homosexuals and bisexuals.

Social prejudice can be very easily internalized. The problem does not rely only on the client’s choice to look for “treatment.” The real problem relies on the hands of counselors and psychologists working with clients to continue the internalization of injurious and biased process that is contrary to ethical principles. By conspiring with clients in accepting prejudicially based beliefs and attitudes, these people are engaging in harmful practices.

Haldeman, D. C.(1994). The practice and ethics of sexual orientation conversion therapies. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 62, 221-227.

[javajunky]

lex70 wrote:

<quoted text>
No one is asking anyone to change their orientation. It is the gays themselves who are seeking to change and you want to deny them that right. Why can't you live and let live instead of trying to force your intolerance on others!?

If those religious organization REALLY gave a sh*t about the GBLT people, they wouldn't be deliberately harming them.
I don't know the facts, and unforunately I don't have the time to do any google searching, but I heard that the suicide rate is much higher for gays/lesbians that have gone through 'treatment' than those who haven't.
These organizations are taking people who aready feel like there's something terribly wrong with them, and then compounding that belief with religious indoctrination that says they will burn forever in hell if they can't change who they are. THEN they do all sorts of cruel and unusual things to these people. When that doesn't work, the patient feels even worse than before the therapy, and is now hopeless, believing he will never be accepted by his 'god'. Or that in order to be accepted he must live a life of lonliness and complete celebacy, always stuggling against his desire for love and sex..
It's not like these programs are HELPING people in fact, they are luring in vulnerable people who are in desperate need of self-acceptance and HARMING them.

[Wildchyld]

Psy wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi there,
in general, psychologists don't support conversion therapy. But you still can find some who support and practice it. In fact, there are some universities in the US that teach conversion therapy as part of the graduate curriculum.
Psy...

Yes, just as you can find psychologist who support racial segregation, creationism or caging your children as punishment. That is the nature of living in a free speech society. The point is that the policy doesn't support it (nor any of those other things).

[TomChicago]

Gryph wrote:

<quoted text>
Did you ever stop to think that the ones who didn't relapse were probably bisexuals and not fully gay or lesbian?

very good point, in my opinion!
nice to hear from you again.

[Psy]

javajunky wrote:

<quoted text>
If those religious organization REALLY gave a sh*t about the GBLT people, they wouldn't be deliberately harming them.
I don't know the facts, and unforunately I don't have the time to do any google searching, but I heard that the suicide rate is much higher for gays/lesbians that have gone through 'treatment' than those who haven't.
These organizations are taking people who aready feel like there's something terribly wrong with them, and then compounding that belief with religious indoctrination that says they will burn forever in hell if they can't change who they are. THEN they do all sorts of cruel and unusual things to these people. When that doesn't work, the patient feels even worse than before the therapy, and is now hopeless, believing he will never be accepted by his 'god'. Or that in order to be accepted he must live a life of lonliness and complete celebacy, always stuggling against his desire for love and sex..
It's not like these programs are HELPING people in fact, they are luring in vulnerable people who are in desperate need of self-acceptance and HARMING them.

Hi javajunky,
good post...nice...nice...nice!!

Psy

[Jimmy]

javajunky wrote:

<quoted text>
If those religious organization REALLY gave a sh*t about the GBLT people, they wouldn't be deliberately harming them.
I don't know the facts, and unforunately I don't have the time to do any google searching, but I heard that the suicide rate is much higher for gays/lesbians that have gone through 'treatment' than those who haven't.
These organizations are taking people who aready feel like there's something terribly wrong with them, and then compounding that belief with religious indoctrination that says they will burn forever in hell if they can't change who they are. THEN they do all sorts of cruel and unusual things to these people. When that doesn't work, the patient feels even worse than before the therapy, and is now hopeless, believing he will never be accepted by his 'god'. Or that in order to be accepted he must live a life of lonliness and complete celebacy, always stuggling against his desire for love and sex..
It's not like these programs are HELPING people in fact, they are luring in vulnerable people who are in desperate need of self-acceptance and HARMING them.

and you know all this HOW?? Your guessing.

[Wil]

Jimmy wrote:

<quoted text>
and you know all this HOW?? Your guessing.

The largest peer reviewed scientific study on the subject indicates that therapy for homosexuals who desire to change is quite effective and deeply appreciated by most clients.

[marzipan]

what seems apparent is that those who support the verification of conversion therapy don't get what that means to the gay community.

if a person wants to deny their "orientation" i think we all agree that is certainly his or her right. even if that person wants to see a therapist to deal with "those feeings". i personally find that sad but hey, if you want to live that way, go ahead.

what is troublesome is the idea of homosexuality being "treated". you can't, in my opionion, treat it. you can give someone tools on how to supress their identity and sexual urges, sure. but to label it a "treatable condition" does harm to those of us who know we are fully mentally intact and healthy.

i came out later in life and i totally understnad how one can know that she/he is gay but want to ignore it out of fear or out of a sense of guilt or obligation to your loved ones. the reality is, you will be very unhappy denying who you are. it affects not only you but your relationships and everything about your life.(and your true friends have it figured out even before you come out to them.)i spent years trying to find an answer other than "gay" for myself. luckily, i had a therapist who did not encourage that i deny but encouraged to inquire within myslef to find the answer.

[aRodeojock]

Wil wrote:

<quoted text>
The largest peer reviewed scientific study on the subject indicates that therapy for homosexuals who desire to change is quite effective and deeply appreciated by most clients.

And this fairy tale can be found where on the internet? As far as I know, there is no "peer reviewed" study that hasn't been debunked by some scientific organization. But, if you've got one, put up or shut up.

[Dyssonance]

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/gay/T75ETL6ES...

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/gay/TKJVAS8AM...

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/gay/TKCOV3AK5...

Learn the truth about Wil

Responding to him is a waste of time and energy.

I suggest that people Flag his posts and move on.

[javajunky]

Wil wrote:

<quoted text>
The largest peer reviewed scientific study on the subject indicates that therapy for homosexuals who desire to change is quite effective and deeply appreciated by most clients.

Link please.... and, no, not to a religiously biased study.

[lex70]

Psy wrote:

“Science is not objective it is based on paradigms. The paradigm in this case is that gays are born that way and can't change. This ignores the evidence that sexuality is a continuum and not polarized into two extremes...gay and straight”(lex70).
One of many characteristics of science in psychological research is that we must rely upon observable and empirical behavior. In order to be an observable behavior it must also be OBJECTIVE and SYSTEMATIC. When you measure something the data has to be reliable (consistency/stability of a measure of behavior). A reliable data produces THE SAME NUMBER over and over. If measures fluctuate there is an error in the measurement device (NARTH’s error, one of many).
Well, if one is measuring rates of success at converting a homosexual to heterosexual orientation, he/she then MUST have the same rates over and over at a number of trials. If the measurements of the same person change then the data is unreliable. If sexuality is in fact a continuum as we have agreed, then to measure it would be extremely difficult because we cannot predict anyone’s sexuality. Someone might feel more or less inclined to homosexuality today and/or more or less inclined to heterosexuality tomorrow. There is no way to predict a person’s sexuality specially if you cannot distinguish between homosexual, bisexual, and heterosexual sexual orientations – studies CANNOT rely on words only as “I’m homosexual, I’m bisexual, or I’m heterosexual.”
Psy

I agree that their is an objective nature to science within a specific research paradigm. however, what gets researched is not objective. What gets ignored is not objective. The explainations and implications are not objectieve etc.

We agree that sexuality is a continuum and that it is difficult to have reproducible empirical studies. That is why I said that qualitative data is all we can rely on. My point is since we can't know on a systematic, objective level as we agree, then shouldn't each individual have the right to choose if they go to a certain type of therapy. The arguement against this just doesn't make sense, especially from people who seem to argue for every other type of freedom. It seems that they are afraid that if too many people experience success with this type of therpay then their philosophical worldview would crumble.

It seems to me that science uses a very strict view of science when it comes to something that is not popular. For example, in alternative health practices that don't use medicine are dismissed b/c they don't use a double blind placebo study. However, the anecdotal evidence is overwhelming. Big drug companies can't accept that b/c they would loose money. This seems to apply hear as well. One worldview is forcing others to accept it by using the arguement that a study that meets their standards doesn't exist. However, in other areas other types of studies are accepted when their is not presure from a special interest group.

[lex70]

TomChicago wrote:

<quoted text>
Nobody is denying them the right to seek "change". The question is what are they changing? Mere behavior change is, I suspect, not what they're seeking, and even "reparative" therapists, faced with the results of "treatment" failure and pain, are now selling no more than that--a just-say-no "therapy".

If you pay attention on here and read the article, people absolutely are trying to deny their right to seek change.

[lex70]

Wil wrote:

<quoted text>
The largest peer reviewed scientific study on the subject indicates that therapy for homosexuals who desire to change is quite effective and deeply appreciated by most clients.

Can you give us this reference or internet link?

[Psy]

lex70 wrote:

<quoted text>
People seek treatment all the time for things that aren't illnesses! Do you actually do therapy? Do you tell people to leave if they don't meet some arbitrary DSM catagory. You do realize that disorders in the DSM are not like medical illnesses that have common etiology, treatment and symptomology. The DSM just groups symptoms so they can be catagorized and labeled...a practice that I disagree with.

Hi there,

You are 100% right that “People seek treatment all the time for things that aren't illnesses!” and I would also agree with you about the wrongness of labeling people, if I did so I apologize for that.
However, a psychologist has the right to end/terminate therapy whenever he/she recognizes the need to do so (there are guidelines for that).
The problem is when a minority of practitioners continue to feel impelled to offer “a cure” for something that is not an illness. The explanation for this is based on cultural and personal bias, inadequate and inappropriate practice.

Psy

[Wil]

Psy wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi there,
You are 100% right that “People seek treatment all the time for things that aren't illnesses!” and I would also agree with you about the wrongness of labeling people, if I did so I apologize for that.
However, a psychologist has the right to end/terminate therapy whenever he/she recognizes the need to do so (there are guidelines for that).
The problem is when a minority of practitioners continue to feel impelled to offer “a cure” for something that is not an illness. The explanation for this is based on cultural and personal bias, inadequate and inappropriate practice.
Psy

Illness is in the eyes of the beholder. Many consider alcoholism to be an illness. Like homosexuality, many prefer it as a lifestyle choice.

Homosexual acts are repeatedly, emphatically, explicitly, and irrefutably condemned in both the Old and New Testament. That fact will never change and Christians and members of most other religions reject a homosexual lifestyle choice as desirable. That is a major reason that homosexuals in the USA seek therapy. The largest scientific study on the subject confirms that it is quite effective.

[macvie]

Wil wrote:

<quoted text>
The largest peer reviewed scientific study on the subject indicates that therapy for homosexuals who desire to change is quite effective and deeply appreciated by most clients.

... and the record skips again ... and again ... and again ...

[macvie]

Wil wrote:

<quoted text>
Illness is in the eyes of the beholder. Many consider alcoholism to be an illness. Like homosexuality, many prefer it as a lifestyle choice.
Homosexual acts are repeatedly, emphatically, explicitly, and irrefutably condemned in both the Old and New Testament. That fact will never change and Christians and members of most other religions reject a homosexual lifestyle choice as desirable. That is a major reason that homosexuals in the USA seek therapy. The largest scientific study on the subject confirms that it is quite effective.

Religion and it's condemnation of homosexuality is the cause of most psychological problems gays experience. Getting rid of these outdated fairy tales would go a long way toward the overall improvement in this nation's mental health.

[javajunky]

macvie wrote:

<quoted text>
... and the record skips again ... and again ... and again ...

NO KIDDING! I can't believe I wasted my time responding to the fool.