Final Brief Filed by Prop 8 Plaintiffs in Effort to Lift Stay on Same-Sex Marriage in California

Mar 19, 2011 | Posted by: Rick in Kansas | Full story: www.towleroad.com

Ted Olson and David Boies, the American Foundation for Equal Rights attorneys representing plaintiffs in the federal challenge to Proposition 8, filed the final brief in efforts to lift a stay imposed by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals on an injunction issued by the U.S. District Court barring same-sex couples from marrying in California.

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#25
Mar 19, 2011
 

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WeTheSheeple wrote:
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I never said it was a justification to issue a stay. But since none of the usual conditions for issuing a stay were met- demonstrable harm, likely to win on appeal, etc, etc- I can only conclude that the 9th Circuit was playing it safe by issuing a stay.
Yes, that's exactly what happened. But, they expedited the case as was asked, and they probably thought that they would be finished with the case soon. That has not haapened, obviously.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Olson & Boies argued against a stay from Judge Walker and a stay from the 9th the first time; how'd that turn out?
The court chose a compromise position and issued a stay, but expedited the case (and, quite a bit for the Ninth Circuit). This situation has changed.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not doubting the ability of Olson & Boies, but the 9th Circuit is obviously playing it safe and slowing down this case as much as possible. They had no reason to issue a stay the first time, yet they did. They had no reason to send the case back down to the California Court, yet they did.
I'm sure that Olson and Boies are quite pleased that you do not question their expertise.**snark**

The Ninth Circuit probably thought that the CASC would quickly answer their question, which has not happened. Afterall, how can the question of standing (for the state) be that difficult? The judges at the Ninth Circuit are chomping at the bit to rule on the merits of the case. That's why they sent the certified question. They hope what the CASC decides will help them with jurisdictional issues (however, I doubt it will). They don't want the SCOTUS to rebuke them again over this issue.
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see any reason for thinking the 9th Circuit will lift their own stay. I see no point in getting our hopes up only to be disappointed once again. Let this case play out, accept the fact that a final resolution isn't likely until 2015. If something else DOES happen, then we'll all be pleasantly suprised!
My hopes are not up. I stated that the chances are 50/50 that the Ninth Circuit will vacate the stay. I'm sure that they'd rather maintain the staus quo if they can. But, I think they will need to have better reasons this time if they choose not to vacate. I don't think they want this case to linger on. While it could take till 2015 to be resolved, I strongly doubt that it will take that long. It should be resolved by late 2013 at least.

“Headed toward the cliff”

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#26
Mar 19, 2011
 

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RnL2008 wrote:
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There is NO GUARANTEE that SCOTUS will even hear an appeal from the proponents of Prop 8 if standing is not granted.
In order for a stay to remain in effect there has to be some evidence or harm that the proponents are suffering or some chance overall that they will win.......and they haven't yet provided ANY evidence to satisfy that requirement.
You may believe as you want......but you asked if there was a chance.......and yes there is, even if it is a small one!!!
My point was that there wasn't a reason to issue a stay in the first place, yet the court did.

I'm aware how the appeals system works, but thinking this case will be over this year or even next is just setting yourself up for disappointment.

The California Supremes likely won't issue their opinion on standing until Dec at the earliest. Then the 9th has to decide how much weight (if any) they will give to whatever decision the CSSC comes to. The 9th can take as long as they want to make whatever decision they're going to make. Since they're obviously slow-tracking this case, I wouldn't expect a decision from them until the end of 2012 at the EARLIEST. Any decision from the 9th WILL be appealed along with an emergency stay request. Everyone has granted a stay so far, so I don't see Justice Kennedy denying a stay request either.

The SCOTUS normally decides which appeals they will accept or deny at the beginning of each term, which is in Oct. So even the 9th issues their decision after Oct 2012 (which I think is likely), then the request for an appeal wouldn't be even entertained by the SCOTUS until 2013. If the SCOTUS denies the appeal request, then the case could be over sometime in 2013. But if the SCOTUS decides to grant cert, then you're looking at 2014 or 2015 before they issue a final ruling.

Again, there's just too many "what ifs" to get our hopes up. I don't expect a final decision until 2015; anything earlier will be a pleasant suprise.

See, this way I'm not setting myself up for disappointment over something which I have absolutely no control of.

“Headed toward the cliff”

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#27
Mar 19, 2011
 

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libra_rising wrote:
My hopes are not up. I stated that the chances are 50/50 that the Ninth Circuit will vacate the stay. I'm sure that they'd rather maintain the staus quo if they can. But, I think they will need to have better reasons this time if they choose not to vacate. I don't think they want this case to linger on. While it could take till 2015 to be resolved, I strongly doubt that it will take that long. It should be resolved by late 2013 at least.
The rest of your argument was fairly logical right up to the point you say- "I think they will need to have better reasons this time....."

Why?

By what logical reasoning would they have to have "better reasons" this time?

It's not like they answer to anyone regarding the stay issue. The SCOTUS isn't going to step in and vacate their stay, at least not until the 9th issues their ruling on the case.

I'm not being critical of you, I'm just wondering if I missed part of your reasoning.

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#28
Mar 19, 2011
 

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WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
The rest of your argument was fairly logical right up to the point you say- "I think they will need to have better reasons this time....."
Why?
By what logical reasoning would they have to have "better reasons" this time?
It's not like they answer to anyone regarding the stay issue. The SCOTUS isn't going to step in and vacate their stay, at least not until the 9th issues their ruling on the case.
I'm not being critical of you, I'm just wondering if I missed part of your reasoning.
I think they need to have better reasons BECAUSE the case is not expedited now. If they wanted to slow things down, why did they put this case an expedited schedule to begin with??? I do not agree with you there. No, they do not have to answer to anyone but the SCOTUS. And, the SCOTUS HAS vacated stays that the Ninth Circuit has issued before. One is cited in the brief, and I'm sure that there are others. Again, the Ninth Circuit does not want to be rebuked again by the SCOTUS. In addition, there is public pressure for them to vacate the stay. That does not mean that they will vacate the stay, but I think that even the judges will want to give more details as to why if they don't.

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Mar 19, 2011
 

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libra_rising wrote:
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I think they need to have better reasons BECAUSE the case is not expedited now. If they wanted to slow things down, why did they put this case an expedited schedule to begin with??? I do not agree with you there. No, they do not have to answer to anyone but the SCOTUS. And, the SCOTUS HAS vacated stays that the Ninth Circuit has issued before. One is cited in the brief, and I'm sure that there are others. Again, the Ninth Circuit does not want to be rebuked again by the SCOTUS. In addition, there is public pressure for them to vacate the stay. That does not mean that they will vacate the stay, but I think that even the judges will want to give more details as to why if they don't.
Okay, that's at least a reason. We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether the motivation for sending the case back to the California court.

However, I would think that vacating their own stay at this point would invite the very rebuke from the SCOTUS you say they are attempting to avoid.

“IT'S TIME TO ELIMINATE”

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#30
Mar 19, 2011
 

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WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
My point was that there wasn't a reason to issue a stay in the first place, yet the court did.
I'm aware how the appeals system works, but thinking this case will be over this year or even next is just setting yourself up for disappointment.
The California Supremes likely won't issue their opinion on standing until Dec at the earliest. Then the 9th has to decide how much weight (if any) they will give to whatever decision the CSSC comes to. The 9th can take as long as they want to make whatever decision they're going to make. Since they're obviously slow-tracking this case, I wouldn't expect a decision from them until the end of 2012 at the EARLIEST. Any decision from the 9th WILL be appealed along with an emergency stay request. Everyone has granted a stay so far, so I don't see Justice Kennedy denying a stay request either.
The SCOTUS normally decides which appeals they will accept or deny at the beginning of each term, which is in Oct. So even the 9th issues their decision after Oct 2012 (which I think is likely), then the request for an appeal wouldn't be even entertained by the SCOTUS until 2013. If the SCOTUS denies the appeal request, then the case could be over sometime in 2013. But if the SCOTUS decides to grant cert, then you're looking at 2014 or 2015 before they issue a final ruling.
Again, there's just too many "what ifs" to get our hopes up. I don't expect a final decision until 2015; anything earlier will be a pleasant suprise.
See, this way I'm not setting myself up for disappointment over something which I have absolutely no control of.
Sheeple,
Personally, I don't know when this will end......but I seriously doubt it will be another 4 years.......however nothing with regards to Prop 8 surprises me anymore.

You are allowed to do and believe whatever you want......but just because you want to believe that way doesn't mean it will happen!!!

I tend to be hopefully optimistic, but cautiously realistic with this whole issue........but I do believe that when and if it get's to SCOTUS that they will handle this issue like they have handled other issues with regards to individual rights like abortion, interracial marriages and contraceptives..........I find this issue no different and I'm sure they won't like it!!!

See, I disagree with you on how long it will take the 9th to make a decision, I believe it will be before summer of 2012.

“IT'S TIME TO ELIMINATE”

Since: Mar 11

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#31
Mar 19, 2011
 

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libra_rising wrote:
<quoted text>
The courts usually like to maintain the status quo, so they may look for a reason to maintain the stay. That's why I think the chances are 50/50.
I don't think it will take until 2015 either. I still don't believe that the proponents have Article III standing. If not, it should be over in 2012.
See, my whole issue is that according to Sheeple.......the courts can just take their sweet azz time and let this linger on for years to come.....AND THEY CAN'T. They do have lawyers to answer to and higher ups......namely SCOTUS.

If the 9th doesn't want to be overturned again.....they will be diligent in their approach......a lot like Judge Walker was, but I believe they will move steadily with a sense of urgency!!!

JMPO on the matter!!!

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#32
Mar 19, 2011
 

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WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, that's at least a reason. We'll just have to agree to disagree on whether the motivation for sending the case back to the California court.
However, I would think that vacating their own stay at this point would invite the very rebuke from the SCOTUS you say they are attempting to avoid.
Why is that??? The SCOTUS is the very court that is most strict and conservative about jurisdictional issues as well as other issues regarding procedure. As a matter of fact, I think that Olson and Boies may well appeal to the SCOTUS if the Ninth Circuit does denies the motion to vacate the stay. With the expedited schedule thrown WAY off, it would make sense.

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#33
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When same-sex marriages were finally legally recognized here in Canada back around 2002-2003 we were promised all sorts of fire and brimstone raining from the skies as punishment from this supposedly homophobic God we're always hearing about.

Yet Canada has gone on quite happily since.

Where are the fireworks we were promised? Where are the plagues, the earthquakes, the floods, the disasters that were supposed to be God's punishment for legalizing same-sex marriage?

We're still waiting!

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Gay And Proud wrote:
When same-sex marriages were finally legally recognized here in Canada back around 2002-2003 we were promised all sorts of fire and brimstone raining from the skies as punishment from this supposedly homophobic God we're always hearing about.
Yet Canada has gone on quite happily since.
Where are the fireworks we were promised? Where are the plagues, the earthquakes, the floods, the disasters that were supposed to be God's punishment for legalizing same-sex marriage?
We're still waiting!
Just goes to show ya, can't believe a word they say. Always promising to give us those things but never deliver.

“Married 6/17/08”

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#35
Mar 20, 2011
 
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
ROTFLMAO at you and your silly scare tactics!!!!
You people crack me up about the "WILL OF THE PEOPLE/VOTERS".......wher e was your outrage when Prop 63 was challenged and found to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL? or when Prop 187 was challenged and found to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL? Both of these Propositions were passed by a majority of the California voters......YET NONE OF YOU WERE BIOTCHING then about the "WILL OF THE PEOPLE/VOTERS"......but because a Proposition ELIMINATING A RIGHT FROM A GROUP OF INDIVIDUALS THAT YOU DON'T PARTICULARLY CARE FOR WAS TOSSED AND RULED UNCONSTITUTIONAL.......NOW YOU WANT TO BE OUTRAGED OVER THE "WILL OF THE PEOPLE/VOTERS"......well, guess what.........you can't vote to eliminate a right from a group of individuals simply because you don't like who they are or who they want to marry!!!
Kindly FRUCK OFF!!!
Rose you, as usual, hit the nail right on the head. Besides that as close as Livermore is to "the city" "Crazy American" better be careful what they ask for.

Remeber a few years back when Pat Robertson want god to hit DisneyWorld with a hurricane for having "Gay Days" and he got hit instead?

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#36
Mar 20, 2011
 
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheeple,
Personally, I don't know when this will end......but I seriously doubt it will be another 4 years.......however nothing with regards to Prop 8 surprises me anymore.
You are allowed to do and believe whatever you want......but just because you want to believe that way doesn't mean it will happen!!!
I tend to be hopefully optimistic, but cautiously realistic with this whole issue........but I do believe that when and if it get's to SCOTUS that they will handle this issue like they have handled other issues with regards to individual rights like abortion, interracial marriages and contraceptives..........I find this issue no different and I'm sure they won't like it!!!
See, I disagree with you on how long it will take the 9th to make a decision, I believe it will be before summer of 2012.
I'm not saying you are wrong. This all could indeed be over as early as 2012. It could just as easily drag out till 2014 or 2015. Some days I'm quite confident in an early victory/resolution, other days I'm rather pessimistic.

My main concern has always been that too many people are counting on an early favorable resolution and aren't doing the necessary preparations in case the courts drag this out for years or rules against us. My motto has always been to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It is possible that in the end the SCOTUS rules Prop 8 is constitutional; no matter how much we all want to believe that can't happen, it IS possible.

Are we doing the necessary preparation for another referendum battle in 2012 or 2014? How much time was wasted in 2010 assuming this would all be over by now. Did we raise any money? We were canvasing all college campuses pushing voter registration and get-out-the-vote efforts? Even though there was no marriage referendum on the ballot in 2010, getting young people to vote regardless of what or who is on the ballot gets them in the habit of voting. Have we reached out to the black & hispanic communities who voted in favor of Prop 8 in greater percentages than whites & asians?

I just want to make sure people are laying the groundwork NOW, instead of just waiting & hoping for the best. If another referendum vote should be necessary to overturn Prop 8, I can GUARANTEE you the anti-gays are ready for that TODAY.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

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#37
Mar 20, 2011
 
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
See, my whole issue is that according to Sheeple.......the courts can just take their sweet azz time and let this linger on for years to come.....AND THEY CAN'T. They do have lawyers to answer to and higher ups......namely SCOTUS.
If the 9th doesn't want to be overturned again.....they will be diligent in their approach......a lot like Judge Walker was, but I believe they will move steadily with a sense of urgency!!!
JMPO on the matter!!!
There simply is no requirement that the 9th Circuit act by any given deadline. They can take as long as they want with any particular case. Believing otherwise is simply wishful thinking.

Remember the average time it takes for a federal case to go from the district court to a final ruling by the SCOTUS (if it gets that far), is anywhere from 4-6 years, often much longer. This case has been going for less than 2 years in the federal court system.

“Facts”

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What cracks me up is that the far left loons are mad that the republicans will not allow a vote on extending the taxes.
We hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth as they clamor for a vote……….
Let the people decide they cry……..

But then when the people decide in this case the far left loons start crying and wailing again and pray that a judge will overturn the peoples vote………….LOL

Typical hypocritical liberals…………………..LOL

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#39
Mar 20, 2011
 

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libra_rising wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is that??? The SCOTUS is the very court that is most strict and conservative about jurisdictional issues as well as other issues regarding procedure. As a matter of fact, I think that Olson and Boies may well appeal to the SCOTUS if the Ninth Circuit does denies the motion to vacate the stay. With the expedited schedule thrown WAY off, it would make sense.
I doubt the SCOTUS would step into this minefield at this time by lifting the stay and allowing same-sex couples to resume marrying in California. I don't think they want to touch this case with a 10ft pole. I predict any such request by Olson & Boies will be rejected without comment.

But this is all irrelevant conjecture on both our parts. As I've stated elsewhere, I just hope people are preparing for the worst case scenario just in case.

“IT'S TIME TO ELIMINATE”

Since: Mar 11

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Mar 20, 2011
 

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jcofe wrote:
<quoted text>
Rose you, as usual, hit the nail right on the head. Besides that as close as Livermore is to "the city" "Crazy American" better be careful what they ask for.
Remeber a few years back when Pat Robertson want god to hit DisneyWorld with a hurricane for having "Gay Days" and he got hit instead?
I agree.......I am sorry for the caps but sometimes these idiots forget about the fact that this is not the first time that a voter passed proposition has been tossed AND yet, they're truly only complaining because of WHO is being protected or allowed.

Yes, and some should be careful for who they wish to be hurt or harmed......it usually will backfire on them!!!

Hope all is well:-)

“IT'S TIME TO ELIMINATE”

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#41
Mar 20, 2011
 

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WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not saying you are wrong. This all could indeed be over as early as 2012. It could just as easily drag out till 2014 or 2015. Some days I'm quite confident in an early victory/resolution, other days I'm rather pessimistic.
My main concern has always been that too many people are counting on an early favorable resolution and aren't doing the necessary preparations in case the courts drag this out for years or rules against us. My motto has always been to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. It is possible that in the end the SCOTUS rules Prop 8 is constitutional; no matter how much we all want to believe that can't happen, it IS possible.
Are we doing the necessary preparation for another referendum battle in 2012 or 2014? How much time was wasted in 2010 assuming this would all be over by now. Did we raise any money? We were canvasing all college campuses pushing voter registration and get-out-the-vote efforts? Even though there was no marriage referendum on the ballot in 2010, getting young people to vote regardless of what or who is on the ballot gets them in the habit of voting. Have we reached out to the black & hispanic communities who voted in favor of Prop 8 in greater percentages than whites & asians?
I just want to make sure people are laying the groundwork NOW, instead of just waiting & hoping for the best. If another referendum vote should be necessary to overturn Prop 8, I can GUARANTEE you the anti-gays are ready for that TODAY.
Well, I would have to agree with you there......some days I am really frustrated over this whole fight because I believe it shouldn't be a fight at all.......and other days I know why I take the position I do..........either way, this issue will continue UNTIL it finds an end.......and it makes not a damn bit of difference how much I like it or not!!!

There have been grassroots groundwork in areas here in California to reach out to those who vote Yes on 8. I'm not sure how they went but here's a video taken that might help explain it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...

This video was done in 2009, but it was done and many more were and still are taking place to the best of my knowledge.

I personally don't like the idea of ANOTHER voter initiative on this issue.......but if it has to be done, then I will do my part.

Hopefully we find a resolution before 2012........but if not, this most likely will be on the ballot again.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

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#42
Mar 20, 2011
 
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, I would have to agree with you there......some days I am really frustrated over this whole fight because I believe it shouldn't be a fight at all.......and other days I know why I take the position I do..........either way, this issue will continue UNTIL it finds an end.......and it makes not a damn bit of difference how much I like it or not!!!
There have been grassroots groundwork in areas here in California to reach out to those who vote Yes on 8. I'm not sure how they went but here's a video taken that might help explain it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
This video was done in 2009, but it was done and many more were and still are taking place to the best of my knowledge.
I personally don't like the idea of ANOTHER voter initiative on this issue.......but if it has to be done, then I will do my part.
Hopefully we find a resolution before 2012........but if not, this most likely will be on the ballot again.
Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm?

I too hope this is resolved next year in our favor and another vote can be avoided. I'd rather all that money be spent on other good causes. When I think of the millions spent on BOTH sides of the Prop 8 debate just to have it end up in federal court anyway.

That said, I still look forward to the day we win a statewide voter referendum approving marriage equality. I know, rights should never be voted on, but since they ARE being voted on, it would be nice to actually win one just to throw it back in the bigots face.

I predict that vote will occur in Washington State in 2012.

“IT'S TIME TO ELIMINATE”

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#43
Mar 20, 2011
 
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm?
I too hope this is resolved next year in our favor and another vote can be avoided. I'd rather all that money be spent on other good causes. When I think of the millions spent on BOTH sides of the Prop 8 debate just to have it end up in federal court anyway.
That said, I still look forward to the day we win a statewide voter referendum approving marriage equality. I know, rights should never be voted on, but since they ARE being voted on, it would be nice to actually win one just to throw it back in the bigots face.
I predict that vote will occur in Washington State in 2012.
If it has to be voted on to repeal.......I believe it will be successful, but I'd rather not have to vote on it again.

Yes, I agree that millions of dollars have been wasted on this issue and could have been used for better things......but as long as the religious folks feel they can dictate what 2 consenting adults can do.......there will be a battle.

I certainly do hope that we can win in Washington:-)

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

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#44
Mar 20, 2011
 
RnL2008 wrote:
<quoted text>
If it has to be voted on to repeal.......I believe it will be successful, but I'd rather not have to vote on it again.
Yes, I agree that millions of dollars have been wasted on this issue and could have been used for better things......but as long as the religious folks feel they can dictate what 2 consenting adults can do.......there will be a battle.
I certainly do hope that we can win in Washington:-)
Well first we have to get it passed by the WA legislature, and that doesn't sound likely till next year. Then of course the anti-gays there will petition to put the law up for a referendum vote the same year.

Historical note- Washington voters approved Ref 71 53%-47% in 2009 which extended all rights of marriage to domestic partners. It's the first time a state-wide referendum extending rights to gays & lesbians passed in the U.S. Not suprisingly all the counties surrounding Seattle/Tacoma/Olympia voted for it while all the rest of the counties voted against.

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