Questions over sex change snag Arizona divorce case

An Arizona man who garnered national media attention for giving birth to three children after having a sex-change operation has hit a snag in his divorce proceedings that could prevent him from having his marriage legally dissolved.

[snyper]

This is funny!

[Bill]

Well... seems to me Thomas isn't actually transgender... he is bi-gender... both male and female. So it really is a sticky situation. To be able to give birth, he has to be female. So his 'transgender' path was not complete. Maybe physically he appears to be male, but then so do drag queens appear to be female... some even taking hormones to give them breasts and less facial and bodily hair.
Very tough to answer this question!

[WasteWater]

Just give the couple a divorce and move on. Hopeless time wasters.

[KittenKoder]

WasteWater wrote:

Just give the couple a divorce and move on. Hopeless time wasters.

I concur. It's just publicity now.

[Rick in Kansas]

WasteWater wrote:

Just give the couple a divorce and move on. Hopeless time wasters.

Underneath the absurdity of it all lies a very important question, when has someone legally changed their sex? There is no national standard and nothing in the common law to prevent someone being legally male in some states while being legally female everywhere else. The Thomas Beattie Circus might actually accomplish something relevant here.

[WasteWater]

Rick in Kansas wrote:

<quoted text>Underneath the absurdity of it all lies a very important question, when has someone legally changed their sex? There is no national standard and nothing in the common law to prevent someone being legally male in some states while being legally female everywhere else. The Thomas Beattie Circus might actually accomplish something relevant here.

Sex change is an illusion meant to help people fit into other people's idea of gender and sexuality right?

[Rick in Kansas]

WasteWater wrote:

Sex change is an illusion meant to help people fit into other people's idea of gender and sexuality right?

While a sec change is merely an illusion, it is also a legal concept in need of sorting out. Who is legally male and who is legally female and how that is all to be determined has never really been determined beyond a state by state basis that has resulted in a hodgepodge of often contradictory rulings.

[WasteWater]

Rick in Kansas wrote:

<quoted text>While a sec change is merely an illusion, it is also a legal concept in need of sorting out. Who is legally male and who is legally female and how that is all to be determined has never really been determined beyond a state by state basis that has resulted in a hodgepodge of often contradictory rulings.

True enough. I wonder what the bid deal is though. Why can't a person choose their gender or not choose a gender?

[KittenKoder]

Rick in Kansas wrote:

<quoted text>While a sec change is merely an illusion, it is also a legal concept in need of sorting out. Who is legally male and who is legally female and how that is all to be determined has never really been determined beyond a state by state basis that has resulted in a hodgepodge of often contradictory rulings.

Actually, that's what bothers me most. The whole concept that gender is so important to life that we even have such problems. The only, and I mean ONLY, people who should be concerned with someone's gender are the doctors. The fact that there's an issue when someone changes such a thing is a problem in society, not them. Changing one's gender is less important in everything than changing one's name, but we make it this huge issue.

[WasteWater]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Actually, that's what bothers me most. The whole concept that gender is so important to life that we even have such problems. The only, and I mean ONLY, people who should be concerned with someone's gender are the doctors. The fact that there's an issue when someone changes such a thing is a problem in society, not them. Changing one's gender is less important in everything than changing one's name, but we make it this huge issue.

Well said indeed.

[Rick in Kansas]

WasteWater wrote:

True enough. I wonder what the bid deal is though. Why can't a person choose their gender or not choose a gender?

While we should be the ones who determine our own gender, it's not a concept which has really caught on in some places. There are some places you are whatever it says on your birth certificate, period. The doctor called it as he saw it and you're stuck with it.

[Rick in Kansas]

KittenKoder wrote:

Actually, that's what bothers me most. The whole concept that gender is so important to life that we even have such problems. The only, and I mean ONLY, people who should be concerned with someone's gender are the doctors. The fact that there's an issue when someone changes such a thing is a problem in society, not them. Changing one's gender is less important in everything than changing one's name, but we make it this huge issue.

While we should have the right to determine what our own gender is, to say what we determine won't matter to anyone else is wishful thinking. Until the laws are uniform and there's essentially one stop shopping for legally changing your gender, there's always going to be problems like this.

[KittenKoder]

Rick in Kansas wrote:

<quoted text>While we should have the right to determine what our own gender is, to say what we determine won't matter to anyone else is wishful thinking. Until the laws are uniform and there's essentially one stop shopping for legally changing your gender, there's always going to be problems like this.

Again, it's not the gender changing that's the problem, it's the fact that society itself puts such importance on one trait that's of little consequence other than for medical care. Show me one non-medical instance in which it's important because it's actually important and not just something that someone wants to make seem important?

[WasteWater]

Rick in Kansas wrote:

<quoted text>While we should be the ones who determine our own gender, it's not a concept which has really caught on in some places. There are some places you are whatever it says on your birth certificate, period. The doctor called it as he saw it and you're stuck with it.

Indeed. I know of such cases.

[WasteWater]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Again, it's not the gender changing that's the problem, it's the fact that society itself puts such importance on one trait that's of little consequence other than for medical care. Show me one non-medical instance in which it's important because it's actually important and not just something that someone wants to make seem important?

Marriage laws, particularly immigration concerns. Job discrimination practices, personal safety issues, partner benefits such as social security and many more things.

[KittenKoder]

WasteWater wrote:

<quoted text>
Marriage laws, particularly immigration concerns. Job discrimination practices, personal safety issues, partner benefits such as social security and many more things.

Those are all still artificially generated needs that society has decided it matters even though in reality it doesn't. It's still society's fault.

[WasteWater]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Those are all still artificially generated needs that society has decided it matters even though in reality it doesn't. It's still society's fault.

I agree and disagree. Suppose you have a lover from another country. You want to make a life together, but you cannot, because the government will not recognize your commitment to one another. Are you saying the fact that your soul mate cannot immigrate doesn't matter? Are you saying the fact that some people want to do harm to you because of who you are doesn't matter? Am I missing something here?

[KittenKoder]

WasteWater wrote:

<quoted text>
I agree and disagree. Suppose you have a lover from another country. You want to make a life together, but you cannot, because the government will not recognize your commitment to one another. Are you saying the fact that your soul mate cannot immigrate doesn't matter? Are you saying the fact that some people want to do harm to you because of who you are doesn't matter? Am I missing something here?

The only reason that would be an issue is if people cannot get past the gender thing. It's still socially accepted and enforced stupidity.

[snyper]

I support legal neuter-ality.

[WasteWater]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
The only reason that would be an issue is if people cannot get past the gender thing. It's still socially accepted and enforced stupidity.

For sure!!!