Book with two moms returns to element...

Book with two moms returns to elementary school library

There are 394 comments on the www.proudparenting.com story from Jan 16, 2013, titled Book with two moms returns to elementary school library. In it, www.proudparenting.com reports that:

The ACLU of Utah defended the book "In Our Mothers' House" by Patricia Polacco, after it was removed from the Davis School District's library shelves...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.proudparenting.com.

straight shooter

Barre, VT

#133 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
You're making blanket statements again, and they're not accurate as usual.
Not everyone is saying two moms are the same as a mom and a dad.
SOME people do indeed say that, but neither part is really accurate.
MY own view is that a same-sex couple can raise a child as successfully as an opposite-sex couple. Same-sex couples have been raising kids for a long time, and even without the benefits & legal protections of marriage, our kids turn out about the same as any other kids raised in a 2 parent household.
I'm not aware of any study which shows a significant difference which can be attributed solely to the gender of their parents.
that's fine, but you do see that you used blanket statements as well?

Single people often raise children quite well, but our studies suggest its a much harder road...

If you agree that "two moms are NOT the same as a mom and a dad" then we have a rational distinction between the groups...
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#134 Jan 18, 2013
Jane Dodo wrote:
<quoted text>
Just recently, eh?
yup, just recently I have been using more insulting words to describe you like ignorant angry childish freakshow a-hole fraud!
:)
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#135 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like you're stuck more on gender roles, than actual parenting skills.
I believe its a myth they are different things...
I do not believe in this new unisex culture...
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#136 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
No two couples are exactly the same, regardless of gender.
Show me the study that says left-handed married couples are the exact same as right-handed married couples?
Obvioulsy since same-sex couples have only been getting married since 2004, there isn't a whole lot of studies to compare the how their children turn out compared to children of opposite-sex couples.
We can't make up studies which don't exist. There HAVE been studies of children raised by same-sex parents, but since they weren't married, it wouldn't satifsy your demand.
Of course your presumption that children of married same-sex couples will be somehow disadvantaged, when children of same-sex parents who just lived together turned out just fine, suggests a bias on your part.
I'm sure studies are being done and will be done in the future. The anti-gays will dismiss all the positive results as somehow biased while focusing on only the negatives; the pro-gay side will trumpet every positive result while overlooking any negatives.
And the battle will continue, because same-sex couples will continue to get married and have kids regardless.........
So you cite something as fact that right now is unproven and really unstudied...
how is that not "faith"?
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#137 Jan 18, 2013
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>
If you don't think that "exceptions negate the rules" (as I also don't), then you should CONSISTENTLY want any couple that doesn't entirely fulfill your expectations of marriage to be limited to CU's. But you don't. You reserve CU's ONLY to gay couples, and NO ONE ELSE, for reasons that you've yet to specify.
.
Big ed,

I have explained to you three times and you refuse to hear it an attack me for your refusal...

you clearly DO NOT understand what I am trying to say and so there is no reason to go any further...

you quote above proves it...

good day.
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#138 Jan 18, 2013
EdmondWA wrote:
<quoted text>

Secondly, how Mona may feel about you will be based on her experiences of YOUR comments and behavior. She isn't simply slandering ALL STRAIGHT PEOPLE, or ALL MALES, or ALL VERMONTERS.
.
actually that angry troll fraud does attack EVERYONE the same way too...
pay more attention and maybe you can control him...
chicken or the egg.. I would suggest that rose and mona make people angry just to play their game, the game you clearly fell for...

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#139 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
that's fine, but you do see that you used blanket statements as well?
Single people often raise children quite well, but our studies suggest its a much harder road...
If you agree that "two moms are NOT the same as a mom and a dad" then we have a rational distinction between the groups...
I'd agree that NO two parents are the same, whether based on gender or religion or ethnicity or height or hair color or handedness or drinking habits or any of a million "rational distinctions".

Yes, single parents can have a much harder time; is that a rational reason to ban them from being parents?
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#140 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
I'd agree that NO two parents are the same, whether based on gender or religion or ethnicity or height or hair color or handedness or drinking habits or any of a million "rational distinctions".
Yes, single parents can have a much harder time; is that a rational reason to ban them from being parents?
When it comes to octomom, we start to have a very serious issue...
I mean there is an outer limit to what you are talking about, or there should be, right?
At a minimum a refusal for society to care for very poor choices like having 8 kids a solo mother..
You are free to do what you like, but should you be free to expend public resources like that?

no two parents are the same, and so I always included my stock "all other things being equal" as a loving gay couple surely trumps an abusive straight couple...
and of course, VICE VERSA....

But to use a cartoonish hypo, the classic orphan look out the window and sees two couples that are alike in all ways except for one is gay and one is straight, which one do you think they would choose if they could? Do you think they "pined" (slowing trying to recover from that...J/K) for two mom's in their "fantasy"?

I agree, two moms versus no moms is a no contest...
but a mom AND dad?

get what I am saying?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#141 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe its a myth they are different things...
I do not believe in this new unisex culture...
That's obviously your choice to believe that.

Having known many people who were raised by either 2 moms or 2 dads as well as many people who were raised by a mom & a dad, the only difference I saw was the bigotry that was sometimes directed at kids raised by same-sex couples.

Question? Is your opinion/belief based on your own personal experiences and observations, or someone else's?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#142 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
So you cite something as fact that right now is unproven and really unstudied...
how is that not "faith"?
Actually I clearly stated that the results of studies on married same-sex couples raising kids has not been proven either way yet; at least to my knowledge. But studies HAVE been done on unmarried same-sex parents raising kids, and again I'm not aware of any study which shows a statistically significant difference in how those kids turn out. I can't think of any rational reason to believe the outcome would be any worse just because their parents are married; in fact I CAN come up with a few rational reasons to believe the outcome could be BETTER.

I also said that regardless of the results of any studies, BOTH sides will cite whatever evidence supports their view.
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#143 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
That's obviously your choice to believe that.
Having known many people who were raised by either 2 moms or 2 dads as well as many people who were raised by a mom & a dad, the only difference I saw was the bigotry that was sometimes directed at kids raised by same-sex couples.
Question? Is your opinion/belief based on your own personal experiences and observations, or someone else's?
Some on personal experience...
to be frank, many of the gay couples i know that raised kids were so happy to have them that they spoiled the little sh!ts rotten...
no discipline.
But I agree about the prejudice, as for example there is a lesbian couple in our group with a son, and while I think (as I just said) that they are just so happy to have the kid, I hear often that the boy needs a father for some discipline and to "make him a man". the boy is very feminine and while I don't necessarily correlate this, many do. But the fact is that this kid probably could use some male influence, but the couple are kinda hidden male haters...
I had discussed before that this couple actually asked me to help their son with peeing standing up...
(My wife offered me)
No biggie, but on my personal experience, I was kinda like: If you cant teach the kid to pee... how are you gonna handle 15 year old male angst? My sense is by attacking it due to the already mention perception of a hidden resentment of males....

anyway, for me personally I have sort of my own religion in which children are the "heaven". We teach them and they learn everything we have to offer by like age 6 and then they take it to a new level, and if you do it right, the kids come back and teach you, and you grow more than you ever could alone.

Much of this and the psychology (psuedo-watered down type psychology) of a biological connection to our ancestors is a part of it. I believe my great granddad is physically present in my child...I can see him in there...that's my version of "reincarnation"...th e carrying forward of those beliefs and traits and improving on them......my child is therefore my past, present and future...

I believe this is akin to "magic" in a loose sense...and it something to be revered...

Yes, there is an a element of it taking a village to raise a child in there, so its not a straight biological thing...its reincarnation through meaning something to children...
and yes, gays can be a part for sure....
but I hope you can see where my ideas about the OPTIMUM as opposed to the "workable" family come from...

Its sort of my own buddhism mixed with some german existentialism in that what you do as a 17 year old becomes who you are as will be learned by your child, so you need to will your actions from now to eternity because that's how it is...

TMI?
too deep on a friday morning?
I was tangentially speaking to your point about how we are all unique and blanketing people is never very accurate...
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#144 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually I clearly stated that the results of studies on married same-sex couples raising kids has not been proven either way yet; at least to my knowledge. But studies HAVE been done on unmarried same-sex parents raising kids, and again I'm not aware of any study which shows a statistically significant difference in how those kids turn out. I can't think of any rational reason to believe the outcome would be any worse just because their parents are married; in fact I CAN come up with a few rational reasons to believe the outcome could be BETTER.
I also said that regardless of the results of any studies, BOTH sides will cite whatever evidence supports their view.
I agree...
but if its not settled, then neither side can assert anything is "fact", do you agree with that?
Just poppin in for a bit

Boulder Creek, CA

#145 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
is that what you guys BELIEVE?
I mean, you do know that is not a proven fact and so there is some element of FAITH....
have you heard about the studies showing girls mature earlier (too early) if their biological dad is not present?
surely that has psychological effects, right?
I have not heard of any such "studies". Have links to any of them?
Right off the top of my head a bunch of questions push for attention.
What do they mean by "earlier"? Earlier than what?
What do they mean by "mature"? How do they measure this quality?
How did they select the control and study groups?
Did the researchers repeat their study with a different population of the same demographic, thus satisfying the re-test requirement?
How did the researchers cross-test for validity, thus satisfying the inter-test requirement?
Where were these studies published? Does the publication qualify as a juried journal of the discipline?
Have any of these studies been independently replicated, thus satisfying the inter-testor requirement?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#146 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
When it comes to octomom, we start to have a very serious issue...
I mean there is an outer limit to what you are talking about, or there should be, right?
At a minimum a refusal for society to care for very poor choices like having 8 kids a solo mother..
You are free to do what you like, but should you be free to expend public resources like that?
no two parents are the same, and so I always included my stock "all other things being equal" as a loving gay couple surely trumps an abusive straight couple...
and of course, VICE VERSA....
But to use a cartoonish hypo, the classic orphan look out the window and sees two couples that are alike in all ways except for one is gay and one is straight, which one do you think they would choose if they could? Do you think they "pined" (slowing trying to recover from that...J/K) for two mom's in their "fantasy"?
I agree, two moms versus no moms is a no contest...
but a mom AND dad?
get what I am saying?
Yes, I get that for YOU the gender of the parents is an important factor, and that for YOU if it came down to being raised by a same-sex couple or an opposite-sex couple you'd chose the later.

For some people money is a important factor. Imagine your same orphan kid seeing a rich couple loaded down with toys versus a poor couple with only a ratty sock doll. All other things being equal, which couple do you think they would choose if they could?

Of course there is also some societal conditioning which affects their "fantasy". Do you really think there are many kids who's fantasy is to raised by an inter-racial couple, or a couple of different race or ethnicity than them? All things being equal, they'd most likely would choose a couple who looks like they do. That's partly due to societal conditioning; maybe partly a leftover genetic fragment instinctively telling them they're safer with with own tribe.

Btw, if you're going to go down the road of telling people how many kids they can have or using the government to discourage people from having kids, you're gonna have a much bigger fight from the right than you'll ever get from me. Personally I think there should be a 1 child limit because of overpopulation, but that's just me.
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#147 Jan 18, 2013
Just poppin in for a bit wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not heard of any such "studies". Have links to any of them?
Right off the top of my head a bunch of questions push for attention.
What do they mean by "earlier"? Earlier than what?
What do they mean by "mature"? How do they measure this quality?
How did they select the control and study groups?
Did the researchers repeat their study with a different population of the same demographic, thus satisfying the re-test requirement?
How did the researchers cross-test for validity, thus satisfying the inter-test requirement?
Where were these studies published? Does the publication qualify as a juried journal of the discipline?
Have any of these studies been independently replicated, thus satisfying the inter-testor requirement?
the internet is your oyster...

here is a start:
"Girls without father tend to mature faster, sexually speaking, as biological fathers send out chemical signals which delay the onset of sexual maturity in daughters, as part of an evolutionary strategy to prevent inbreeding, according to researchers at Penn State.

"Biological fathers send out inhibitory chemical signals to their daughters. In the absence of these signals, girls tend to sexually mature earlier" said Robert Matchock, assistant professor of psychology at Penn State's Altoona Campus. This is something common amongst mammals. Removing the father in a rodent family, the daughters tend to mature faster.

"Recently, experts elsewhere discovered a little-known pheromone receptor gene in the human olfactory system, linking the role of pheromones on menarche, or the first occurrence of menstruation" said Matchock recently in the American Journal of Human Biology."

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Father-039-s-p...

I simply chose the very first link after my search and make no reliance on this particular site or its validity...
I'll leave the rest to you...

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#148 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree...
but if its not settled, then neither side can assert anything is "fact", do you agree with that?
That's why I try to stay away from claiming something is a fact when it hasn't been proven. Though I admit to stating it as a "fact" that there is no evidence which proves kids raised by same-sex parents are at any disadvantage. Factually correct, but kinda like proving a negative.

It will NEVER be settled as far as the anti-gays are concerned. No matter how many studies are done and regardless of the results, the anti-gays will continue to oppose same-sex couples raising kids.

Those opposed to same-sex couples raising kids go into it with the presumption (belief) that they must be at a disadvantage. Obviously the reverse applies to those of us who are supportive.

But again there is an obvious in those presumptions because one is likely based on personal experience/observation and previous similar studies, while the other is often based solely on the bias held without any suppportive evidence, personal or otherwise.
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#149 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I get that for YOU the gender of the parents is an important factor, and that for YOU if it came down to being raised by a same-sex couple or an opposite-sex couple you'd chose the later.
For some people money is a important factor. Imagine your same orphan kid seeing a rich couple loaded down with toys versus a poor couple with only a ratty sock doll. All other things being equal, which couple do you think they would choose if they could?
Of course there is also some societal conditioning which affects their "fantasy". Do you really think there are many kids who's fantasy is to raised by an inter-racial couple, or a couple of different race or ethnicity than them? All things being equal, they'd most likely would choose a couple who looks like they do. That's partly due to societal conditioning; maybe partly a leftover genetic fragment instinctively telling them they're safer with with own tribe.
Btw, if you're going to go down the road of telling people how many kids they can have or using the government to discourage people from having kids, you're gonna have a much bigger fight from the right than you'll ever get from me. Personally I think there should be a 1 child limit because of overpopulation, but that's just me.
but all other things being equal we would show a preference for the wealthier couple...

I want to clarify. I never think the govt can tell anyone how many kids to have, BUT they can say they will only provide for no more than 3 if the sh!t hits the fan!

I hate to play it like this, but there is a huge difference between the govt telling people what they can do and refusing to support,recognize or "insure" that behavior...(the gay marriage correlation between freedom and recognition again)

as to octomom, I am suggesting a refusal to offer any more PUBLIC benefits than for a mom and 3 kids...

she can have as many kids as she wants, but its at her own risk after 3....

that kinda thing!
Just poppin in for a bit

Boulder Creek, CA

#150 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
but all other things being equal we would show a preference for the wealthier couple...
I want to clarify. I never think the govt can tell anyone how many kids to have, BUT they can say they will only provide for no more than 3 if the sh!t hits the fan!
I hate to play it like this, but there is a huge difference between the govt telling people what they can do and refusing to support,recognize or "insure" that behavior...(the gay marriage correlation between freedom and recognition again)
as to octomom, I am suggesting a refusal to offer any more PUBLIC benefits than for a mom and 3 kids...
she can have as many kids as she wants, but its at her own risk after 3....
that kinda thing!
Such benefits would have to be enacted by Law. By your system, kids 4+ would not be receiving "Equal Protection under Law".
straight shooter

Barre, VT

#151 Jan 18, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>

It will NEVER be settled as far as the anti-gays are concerned. No matter how many studies are done and regardless of the results, the anti-gays will continue to oppose same-sex couples raising kids.
Would you accept a rigorous study that showed there were some deficiencies?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#152 Jan 18, 2013
straight shooter wrote:
<quoted text>
Some on personal experience...
to be frank, many of the gay couples i know that raised kids were so happy to have them that they spoiled the little sh!ts rotten...
no discipline.
But I agree about the prejudice, as for example there is a lesbian couple in our group with a son, and while I think (as I just said) that they are just so happy to have the kid, I hear often that the boy needs a father for some discipline and to "make him a man". the boy is very feminine and while I don't necessarily correlate this, many do. But the fact is that this kid probably could use some male influence, but the couple are kinda hidden male haters...
I had discussed before that this couple actually asked me to help their son with peeing standing up...
(My wife offered me)
No biggie, but on my personal experience, I was kinda like: If you cant teach the kid to pee... how are you gonna handle 15 year old male angst? My sense is by attacking it due to the already mention perception of a hidden resentment of males....
anyway, for me personally I have sort of my own religion in which children are the "heaven". We teach them and they learn everything we have to offer by like age 6 and then they take it to a new level, and if you do it right, the kids come back and teach you, and you grow more than you ever could alone.
Much of this and the psychology (psuedo-watered down type psychology) of a biological connection to our ancestors is a part of it. I believe my great granddad is physically present in my child...I can see him in there...that's my version of "reincarnation"...th e carrying forward of those beliefs and traits and improving on them......my child is therefore my past, present and future...
I believe this is akin to "magic" in a loose sense...and it something to be revered...
Yes, there is an a element of it taking a village to raise a child in there, so its not a straight biological thing...its reincarnation through meaning something to children...
and yes, gays can be a part for sure....
but I hope you can see where my ideas about the OPTIMUM as opposed to the "workable" family come from...
Its sort of my own buddhism mixed with some german existentialism in that what you do as a 17 year old becomes who you are as will be learned by your child, so you need to will your actions from now to eternity because that's how it is...
TMI?
too deep on a friday morning?
I was tangentially speaking to your point about how we are all unique and blanketing people is never very accurate...
Judging from what you posted, I'd say your idea of the "optimum" is influenced mostly by societal conditioning and your own preconceived views, and not anything which can actually be attributed to being raised by a same-sex couple.

Obviously there opposite-sex couples who spoil their kids rotten or can't figure out how to potty train their kids as well.

For me the issue is more about responsible parenting. If you're going to have a kid and don't think you can handle certain aspects of child-rearing, then you have an obligation to ensure the necessary resources are available to assist you with that. Whether that means a lesbian couple having a male role model available if they don't think they can handle those issues, or a straight couple having a disciplinarian available (aunt, grandpa, etc) if they can't handle that.

I've always said I need a license to catch a fish, but any damn fool can have a kid......

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